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ever tried the n1 muffler ebay special!

Then what is it that a back pressure gauge measures?:
Deflection from one exhaust pulse to another. I am running in circles here!!!!

While valves are opening and closing, the pulse
is reflecting back at a certain rpm!!! Everything is tuned and resonant in the exhaust making the exact power till it tapers off due to the pulse waves changing speed +-

Think of a wave of WATER hitting a wall and bouncing backward -
Air moves in a similar fashion. When the exhaust pulse hits the atmosphere it will reflect back toward the exhaust port.

The exhaust gas will exit easier if there is little resistance at the exhaust port. Okay we agree here!!
You can also think of low pressure as a VACUUM. It actually creates a sucking effect at the exhaust port so that when the valve opens, the low pressure area sucks the gas out of the cylinder. Remember...fluids and gasses move from high pressure to low pressure - that's a key point here.
So the reflected pulse is tuned to reach the port at LOW pressure.

That is what you are measuring. PSI is not a correct way at any means for figuring out exhaust systems. Its actually all all wrong lol.:)



But you just said there IS no back pressure? :p:
There is no back pressure but pressure between waves!! but nothing else is backing it up, so the theory of have a restrictive muffler creating back pressure is FALSE.

Seriously though, you're talking CFM and for CFM, I concur?::
. Can you explain to me what you agree?

However, concerning back pressure, I disagree, as this is what my experiences have shown me. So, short of a video test with readings proving me wrong, I'm sticking to my guns. :cool::
This statement tells me your in denial :)


What ever you do, do not tell people like that back pressure is a bad thing. :crazy:

Tell me, do you think having no mufflers,cats or resonators is better than not having any on a car??
 
The exhaust gas will exit easier if there is little resistance at the exhaust port. Okay we agree here!!
Actually I disagree with that statement as well... being that it defies logic.

That is what you are measuring. PSI is not a correct way at any means for figuring out exhaust systems. Its actually all all wrong.
You can say it a hundred different ways but I'm still not going to agree with you... nor are my experiences going to change because you said they are wrong. :nonono:

There is no back pressure but pressure between waves!! but nothing else is backing it up, so the theory of have a restrictive muffler creating back pressure is FALSE.
Sorry man, but when a diagnostic gauge is made to measure back pressure and does so in PSI, I have trouble ignoring these facts. Call it back pressure, pressure between waves, pressure differential or make something up like exhaust pulse negative deflection amount... regardless of what you call it, it's measurable in PSI, and in my experiences, it hinders power production. You cannot change my mind about something I've seen with my own eyes.

Can you explain to me what you agree?
You said that any length of a given diameter pipe will have the same back pressure, and they will flow the same. I agree they will flow the same CFM, but I disagree that the back pressure produced by each would be the same.

This statement tells me your in denial :)
That would be an incorrect assessment, but you're entitled to your opinion.

What ever you do, do not tell people like that back pressure is a bad thing. :crazy:
Sorry, but it IS a bad thing.

Tell me, do you think having no mufflers,cats or resonators is better than not having any on a car??
For peak power potential, without a doubt.
 
http://www.uucmotorwerks.com/html_product/sue462/backpressuretorquemyth.htm

Why do you think drag cars, nascar cars, and gt race cars don't have mufflers and res? Because they are tuned for max power without them. Read the article, the reason you need some back-pressure with say... a Contour, is because the car was tuned to have a certain amount of pressure as a result of the stock exhaust.
 
Actually I disagree with that statement as well... being that it defies logic.


You can say it a hundred different ways but I'm still not going to agree with you... nor are my experiences going to change because you said they are wrong. :nonono:


Sorry man, but when a diagnostic gauge is made to measure back pressure and does so in PSI, I have trouble ignoring these facts. Call it back pressure, pressure between waves, pressure differential or make something up like exhaust pulse negative deflection amount... regardless of what you call it, it's measurable in PSI, and in my experiences, it hinders power production. You cannot change my mind about something I've seen with my own eyes.

You said that any length of a given diameter pipe will have the same back pressure, and they will flow the same. I agree they will flow the same CFM, but I disagree that the back pressure produced by each would be the same.
That would be an incorrect assessment, but you're entitled to your opinion.
Sorry, but it IS a bad thing.
For peak power potential, without a doubt.

I would just like to point out... You have yet to prove any of your theories and how back pressure actually 1.works 2. how back pressure provides power positively or negatively.

Lay some facts down, because i have and supported my statement. Yet yours don't go very far and end with only personal experience:shrug:

I'm not trying to insult you at all. I just want to now what drives your ideas/theories:shrug:

So why did you waste time creating a custom y-pipe, why not just make a 4 inch dump out of your stock manifolds and have zero back pressure. :laugh:
 
I would just like to point out... You have yet to prove any of your theories and how back pressure actually 1.works 2. how back pressure provides power positively or negatively.
Come on man, you haven't "proven" anything either - you're using numbers and referencing your notes. Flow bench numbers put you in the ballpark, they are not the be-all, end-all as they are far from real-world. Unless they now have flow benchs that use pulsing, expanding, hot, inert gas as test flow, they just don't give you the whole picture. As for ME proving MY theories, I've tried explaining, but my explanations are falling on deaf ears. Why continue to debate or explain theory to a closed mind? You have numbers, I have experience, and they have led us each to different conclusions.

Lay some facts down, because i have and supported my statement. Yet yours don't go very far and end with only personal experience
Your facts are largely your beliefs... big difference. You're getting your opinion confused with fact, and you're missing the fine print in this conversation. I make a statement about power, and you rebut me with a statement about torque... we're on very different pages of the book.

Look, as soon as I can, I'll tap into my exhaust at various points to get back pressure measurements, and I'll run it on the dyno. Then I'll change some things around, remeasure back pressure and redyno. Then we can compare all the measurements and readings.

So why did you waste time creating a custom y-pipe, why not just make a 4 inch dump out of your stock manifolds and have zero back pressure.
Because being able to hear myself think is more important than a few extra, peak HP.

And Harry, if you haven't already, you should read the article posted above by Youngkidwithnomoney.
 
all that link is is the same crap you 2 are doing... a buch of words with no proof. while i beleve for racing applications a free flowing exhaust is best. for the street it is not. since we are not driving race cars exhaust restriction is required. argument over.
 
i beleve for racing applications a free flowing exhaust is best. for the street it is not. since we are not driving race cars exhaust restriction is required. argument over.
"I believe" being the operative words there. You're entitled to your opinion just as everyone else is, but you haven't provided any "proof" either. Though it makes me chuckle that, in 2008, someone would believe that a car wouldn't run if there was not exhaust restriction, (that IS what you said - restriction is REQUIRED). Forty or so years ago, perhaps... but not today.

Some of y'all seem to be stuck mentally in archaic beliefs, many of which just don't apply to modern, computer-controlled engines.

I do this sh*t for a living guys... this is how I pay my bills. I'm MORE than qualified to present my beliefs as fact, yet I have clearly stated them all as merely my beliefs and my experiences. So why do so many people present their beliefs as factual info, when there is often a very big difference between the two? If everyone on CEG adopted the belief that grass was blue, would that make it FACT? Sorry guys, but no, it wouldn't.
 
"I believe" being the operative words there. You're entitled to your opinion just as everyone else is, but you haven't provided any "proof" either. Though it makes me chuckle that, in 2008, someone would believe that a car wouldn't run if there was not exhaust restriction, (that IS what you said - restriction is REQUIRED). Forty or so years ago, perhaps... but not today.

Some of y'all seem to be stuck mentally in archaic beliefs, many of which just don't apply to modern, computer-controlled engines.

I do this sh*t for a living guys... this is how I pay my bills. I'm MORE than qualified to present my beliefs as fact, yet I have clearly stated them all as merely my beliefs and my experiences. So why do so many people present their beliefs as factual info, when there is often a very big difference between the two? If everyone on CEG adopted the belief that grass was blue, would that make it FACT? Sorry guys, but no, it wouldn't.


Okay here you go.... these are not my beliefs these are facts striaght out of books!!

I am going to post a link to hotrod magazine explaining exhaust!

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/enginemasters/articles/hardcore/0505em_exh/index1.html



Mufflers -- Two Golden Rules To Avoid Power Loss
Inappropriate muffler selection and installation (which appears so for better than 90 percent of cases) will, in a very effective manner, negate most of the advantages of system length/diameter tuning. The question at this point is what does it take to get it right and how much power are we likely to loose if the system is optimal? The quick and dirty answers to these questions are "not much" and "zero." This next sentence is the key to the whole issue here, so pay attention. To achieve a zero-loss muffled high-performance race system we need to work with the two key exhaust system factors in total isolation from each other. These two factors are: the pressure wave tuning from length/diameter selection, and minimizing backpressure by selecting mufflers of suitable flow capacity for the application. If we do this then a quiet (street-legal noise levels) zero-loss system on a race car is totally achievable without a great deal of effort on anybody's part. Ultimately, it boils down to nothing more than knowledgeable component selection and installation, so let's look at what it takes in detail.

Muffler Flow Basics
We select exhaust systems based on flow capacity rather than size because engines are flow sensitive, not size sensitive. This being so, why should the same not apply to the selection of mufflers? The answer (and here I'd like muffler manufactures to please note) is that it should, as the engine's output is influenced minimally by size but dramatically by flow capability. Buying a muffler based on pipe diameter has no performance merit. The only reason you need to know the muffler pipe size is for fitment purposes. The engine cares little what size the muffler pipe diameters are but it certainly does care what the muffler flows and muffler flow is largely dictated by the design of the innards. What this means is that the informed hot rodder/engine builder should select mufflers based on flow, not pipe size.

A study of Fig. 6 will help to give a better understanding as to how the design of the muffler's core, not the pipe size, dictates flow.

Let's start by viewing a muffler installations, these are the in-going pipe, the muffler core and the exit pipe. Drawing number 2 shows a typical muffler which has, due to a design process apparently unaided by a flow bench, core flow significantly less than an equivalent length of pipe the size of the entry and exit pipe. Because the core flow is less than the entry and exit pipe then the engine "sees" the muffler as if it were a smaller and consequently more restrictive pipe as per drawing number 4. If the core has more flow than the equivalent pipe size, as in drawing number 5, it appears larger than the entry and exit pipe. Result: the muffler is seen by the engine as a near zero restriction. A section of straight pipe the length of a typical muffler, rated at the same test pressure as a carb (10.5 inches of mercury), flows about 115 cfm per square inch. Given this flow rating, we will see about 560 cfm from a 2.5-inch pipe. If we have a 2.5-inch muffler that flows 400 cfm, the engine reacts to this just the same as it would a piece of straight pipe flowing 400 cfm.

At 115 cfm per square inch, that's the equivalent to a pipe only 2.1 inches in diameter. This is an important concept to appreciate. Why? Because so many racers worry about having a large-diameter pipe in and out of the muffler. This concern is totally misplaced, as in almost all but a few cases, the muffler is the point of restriction, not the pipe!





If you still thinking putting a 4 inch dump after your headers and you still think your gonna make alot of power is sooo wrong. that makes no sense at all and you have yet to explain it. Please do!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Here is my second fact!!!!

The results in HP order:
1.Flowtech Warlock (open) 374.2 hp/ 333.1 tq
2.Bassani Real Street 373.7 hp/ 333.8 tq
3.Hooker Maxflow 373.5 hp/ 333 tq
4.Borla XS 373.3 hp/ 332.6 tq
5.Magnaflow 372.8 / 332.5 tq
6.MAC 372.3 hp / 331.5 tq
7.Flowtech Afterburner 372.3 hp/ 330.1 tq
8.Hooker Aerochamber 372.1 hp/ 330.4 tq
9.Bassani 372 hp/ 333.5 tq
10.Spintech 371.6 hp/ 332.2 tq
11.Edelbrock Performer RPM 370.9 hp / 331.3 tq
12.Borla XR1 370 hp/ 334 tq
13.Flowtech Terminator 369.5 hp / 331.3 tq
14.Dynomax Ultra Flo 369.4 / 333.2 tq
15.Flowmaster 369.4 hp / 331.8 tq
17.No muffs 365.2 hp / 330.1 tq

Having had NO MUFFLERS, he lost tq and hp numbers??? Then adding any muffler above gave him automatically 5 +.
From as much as 9hp and 3tq. Wow... I guess he shouldn't even add mufflers or any restrictions at all. That way he can make less power overall!!!!!!
Remember this is the lost in HP. The one value you state would be increased do to no restrictions.

http://ls1tech.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-119518.html
 
He lost power because the car was tuned to have mufflers and a certain amount of back pressure to run properly... I bet if that car was tuned to run with no pressure then the power would go down WITH mufflers. But I'm just using logic, I don't have the credentials that you guys have...
 
If you still thinking putting a 4 inch dump after your headers and you still think your gonna make alot of power is sooo wrong. that makes no sense at all and you have yet to explain it. Please do!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You're really starting to get annoying. Please read my statements better. I never said it would make a LOT of power, but yes, there would be a power increase. The power increase would be due to less resistance to the exhaust flow. You cannot possibly, intelligently argue that an exhaust system does NOT create resistance that the exhaust flow must work against... could you? My point being, alleviate resistance, gain power... it's really that simple. You disagree and that's fine. Just let it die.

Here is my second fact!!!!
Based on a pushrod V8. I'm not trying to change your mind - stop trying to change mine. There never has been, and never will be a pushrod V8 in MY Contour so don't quote testing done on a pushrod, 2-valve V8 as scripture, and imply that I don't know what I'm talking about concerning 4-valve, DOHC engines. Do you realize the differences we're talking about here? Valve configuration, general head flow POTENTIAL, combustion chamber volume/shape differences, aluminum vs. likely iron heads, compression ratios. Jesus man, you're not on another page, you're on another planet! Some of the info IS applicable, certainly, but some is not.

I guess he shouldn't even add mufflers or any restrictions at all. That way he can make less power overall!!!!!!
Yeah, in his pushrod, 2-valve V8. :rolleyes:

The last time I checked, the Duratec is a DOHC, 4-valve V6.

If you want to put your money where your mouth is, we can make a wager and I'll cut my custom Y-pipe up in a SECOND to take your money... and prove my point in the process. Name your price and we'll get a holder & witnesses. I have a DynoJet here and we can use my SE as the guinea pig.
 
IMO These cars can't have a muscle car exhaust and shouldnt be ricey at all...
But there are some cars that don't look that bad with a muffler like this. It might not be that bad...I'll try it when I get some extra cash. a little pricier one than this and not such a big opening 4" like come on :" maybe 3" With the cat gutted and Resonator on still with just the muffler chopped off it might now sound that bad...It would be a lot better than the glasspack I've bought (no I've never put it on the car)
 
So why did you tell me to look at the article and then mention that newer cars can compensate the difference? Well our svt's can;t do that. We don't have VVT like the newer 3.0l's that can adjust. Also bmw's computer mangament system that also can adjust for the lact of restriction.

If you want to cut up your exhaust to only show me a loss of power from 1-5k then only make 1whp at 5500rpm. And a loss of whp around that certain rpm then go ahead. Dyno it, just remove the y-pipe. You will have ths tock manifolds on right. do you need anything more? Because you said the lnger the pipe the more back pressure. So don't even add pipes! Take off the y-pipe and dyno it with just striaght headers. :)

I will retain all my whp numbers and tq numbers keeping my custom true dual setup with cat's, resonators and mufflers the way it is.:shrug:

I just can't believe ---removing all restrictions will gain more power----- It is soo false. i feel like your shedding false information on here. I don't want others thinking this because it is false. Its not my theory it's a fact. Its all over exhaust articles, magazines, books etc.

We agree to disagree. Good luck with your SE. I'll post my numbers in a few weeks when i am finally done with my car.
 
Okay, let me chime in since I was asked to participate...

Exhaust gas WILL exit "easier" with less restriction. PERIOD! The simple example is blowing through a small straw and blowing through a garden hose. The garden hose wins. Less pressure = greater flow "potential" and potential is the key word here.

Flow potential is a double edged sword in both intake and exhaust calculations. For reference a bit less so in exhaust related endeavours.

Okay so now we have determined bigger is better for exhaust flow. Then when is too much, too much??? Well, when you hurt velocity and therefore scavenging. Too much "back pressure", to put it basic terms most people talk about, is having too small diameter of pipe or crappy flowing mufflers. This causes the heads to not be able to expel the spent exhaust gas at the efficiency range they want to do it. (For demonstrative purposes we will say the heads are nicely ported and can support optimum exhaust flow.) If the pistons can't "blow" out the spent gasses because the "back pressure" is too high then you lose engine efficiency and thus power production. So using this philosophy you want to have no exhaust at all right? Not quite. Sure open tuned headers would be an ideal "backpressure" solution but you are missing a few key elements like...
Scavenging and powerband. There is the effect of the exhaust "pulses" (one per cylinder remind you!) that HELP to pull more spent gas from the chamber. When the exhaust can help pull more spent gas from the chamber the engine's efficiency rises. Even without adding more fuel, dynamic compression ratio, or anything. Therefore over sizing the exhaust will hurt your overall powerband. This is also why tuned headers and exhaust setup verses just making the exhaust freer flowing (less "back pressure") is key to maximizes your overall power.

Race cars (Drag/NASCAR/etc) are tuned to make power at extreme rpm levels. 8000-9500rpm They don't care about midrange power because they never use it. This is why they run tuned headers with minimal exhaust. However they still use a balance pipe to help with the scavenging because increasing the engine's efficiency is always key!

There are tunable mufflers that add or subtract discs in the setup to change the exhaust's overall pressure range. In doing so they can actually change the power band several hundred rpm. Zero (or wanting no) back pressure is a myth. The resistance of the exhaust will always be there.

The bottom line. What you want is a setup that maximizes scavenging and is tuned for your powerband. An open exhaust may net a peak HP gain but your overall powerband will always be inferior to a well setup system. I will take overall powerband verses peak power every day of the week because it makes a faster car. Cars have to shift!
 
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