Injector questions. Going from 17# to...?

[blu_fuz]

Alrighty. As most of you know I have the 17# injectors powering my ported 2005 3L.

I will be upgrading soon and have always just assumed to go to 19# SVT injectors because that is what most/all ported 3L guys are using.

Shouldn't I just go to the 24# injectors that have the same spray pattern as my 17#s? Will it be a harder upgrade than the 19#?

I am also using a SVT vac-converted LIM and I have a EO fuel rail and orange 19# injectors already.

I look at it this way, either way I am cutting/splicing new injector connectors onto my harness so why not supply the OEM spec fuel into the 3L? If it is a clearance issue for the UIM I can make a intake spacer, no problem.

What would you guys suggest before I tear it apart?

 

[elraido]

I would go with that the engine was designed for personally. The spray pattern might be wrong, but you won't be maxing them out. Was there a 2Xlbs injector that was used for split ports?

 

[Beans]

I would go with that the engine was designed for personally. The spray pattern might be wrong, but you won't be maxing them out.

100% disagree.

I'd just use the orange injectors Joe.

 

[Harrry]

100% disagree.

I'd just use the orange injectors Joe.

I also agree with beans on this one!!

Joe, i'm glad your gave this some serious thought and want to finish this project.

19lbs would be fine.
Most nitrous kits will work with the 19lbs and not create a lean condition. And since you already know FI cars are not having problems with 19 lb injectors.

Unless you plan to do a dyno/tune session. Then 24lbs would be easily corrected for your application.

But if your looking for a mail order tune, i would stick with what has been tuned 100's of times. 19lb injectors.

 

[blu_fuz]

Fantastic! I can dive into this soon then. Sounds reasonable to me.

 

[elraido]

I also agree with beans on this one!!

Joe, i'm glad your gave this some serious thought and want to finish this project.

19lbs would be fine.
Most nitrous kits will work with the 19lbs and not create a lean condition. And since you already know FI cars are not having problems with 19 lb injectors.

Unless you plan to do a dyno/tune session. Then 24lbs would be easily corrected for your application.

But if your looking for a mail order tune, i would stick with what has been tuned 100's of times. 19lb injectors.

I was told that the 19#ers are near the top of the range for the 3.0L and will burn out sooner rather than later because of the heavy load on them. :shrug: Granted you aren't going to run lean or anything of the sort....it is the fact they won't last as long as one might want.

 

[striker2]

I was told that the 19#ers are near the top of the range for the 3.0L and will burn out sooner rather than later because of the heavy load on them. :shrug: Granted you aren't going to run lean or anything of the sort....it is the fact they won't last as long as one might want.

at 90% duty cycle, 19lb injectors top out at about 205BHP or ~175WHP. 24lb injectors at the same duty cycle top out at about 260BHP or ~220WHP.

running fuel injectors at above 90% duty cycle is really hard on the injector and can burn it out fast. at your current 190WHP, your running the 17lb injectors at over 100% (~109% according to calculations) duty cycle. the same power on 19lb injectors is over 100% duty cycle (~101%). with 24lb injectors you would only be at ~80% duty cycle.

 

[elraido]

at 90% duty cycle, 19lb injectors top out at about 205BHP or ~175WHP. 24lb injectors at the same duty cycle top out at about 260BHP or ~220WHP.

running fuel injectors at above 90% duty cycle is really hard on the injector and can burn it out fast. at your current 190WHP, your running the 17lb injectors at over 100% (~109% according to calculations) duty cycle. the same power on 19lb injectors is over 100% duty cycle (~101%). with 24lb injectors you would only be at ~80% duty cycle.

Good to know I am not on crazy pills.

Joe, do it right. 24#ers with a tune.

 

[Harrry]

at 90% duty cycle, 19lb injectors top out at about 205BHP or ~175WHP. 24lb injectors at the same duty cycle top out at about 260BHP or ~220WHP.

running fuel injectors at above 90% duty cycle is really hard on the injector and can burn it out fast. at your current 190WHP, your running the 17lb injectors at over 100% (~109% according to calculations) duty cycle. the same power on 19lb injectors is over 100% duty cycle (~101%). with 24lb injectors you would only be at ~80% duty cycle.

Actually 19lb injectors tops out at 90% duty cycle at 225Bhp. According to my FMS catalog. At what PSI are you taking your measurements striker? 32?34?38?40?42?45? etc etc.

Our overall tests have shown multiple times on here and neco that the 19lbs were running safely on turbo applications running levels of 260whp for long periods.
Now the longest to my knowledge has been 45k miles. I never even put on 45k miles on my car the 6 years i owned it :laugh:

But seeing 19lbs used in every split port setup done on every car on here so continuously without fail. I wouldn't fear the idea of running them. Actually i don't recall 1 single ported 3L having fuel injector failure :shrug:I think it was blackcoog that was running his 19's and was showing lean condition at about 320whp :laugh:


IMHO..i would stay with 19lbs. :shrug:

 

[Harrry]

Good to know I am not on crazy pills..

Oh but you are...:crazy::laugh:

 

[striker2]

Actually 19lb injectors tops out at 90% duty cycle at 225Bhp. According to my FMS catalog. At what PSI are you taking your measurements striker? 32?34?38?40?42?45? etc etc.

what BSFC are you using? looks like ~.45 where as im using .5. the flow rate im using is the standard ~19lbs at 3bar (~43.5PSI). by going up to 55PSI you can get almost 21lbs out of the injectors.

even still, 225BHP is roughly 191WHP and the injectors, in Joe's case, would be right at that 90% duty cycle.

Our overall tests have shown multiple times on here and neco that the 19lbs were running safely on turbo applications running levels of 260whp for long periods.
Now the longest to my knowledge has been 45k miles. I never even put on 45k miles on my car the 6 years i owned it :laugh:

really? most of the turbo cars ive seen step up and use 24lb injectors, even NPGs base kit that runs 5PSI and makes ~245WHP comes with 24lbs injectors.

But seeing 19lbs used in every split port setup done on every car on here so continuously without fail. I wouldn't fear the idea of running them. Actually i don't recall 1 single ported 3L having fuel injector failure :shrug:I think it was blackcoog that was running his 19's and was showing lean condition at about 320whp :laugh:

you dont know what fuel pressure they are running though. you could bump it to 65PSI and get about the same flow as a 24lb injector.

IMHO..i would stay with 19lbs. :shrug:

could Joe stay with the 19s? sure, but if it were me i would want to know that my injectors can handle more power safely without taxing them.

edit: since, IIRC, he is running a stock SE PCM, he will have to get a tune anyways so why not just go with the 24lb injectors and be safe?

 

[Harrry]

what BSFC are you using? looks like ~.45 where as im using .5. the flow rate im using is the standard ~19lbs at 3bar (~43.5PSI). by going up to 55PSI you can get almost 21lbs out of the injectors.

even still, 225BHP is roughly 191WHP and the injectors, in Joe's case, would be right at that 90% duty cycle.

really? most of the turbo cars ive seen step up and use 24lb injectors, even NPGs base kit that runs 5PSI and makes ~245WHP comes with 24lbs injectors.

you dont know what fuel pressure they are running though. you could bump it to 65PSI and get about the same flow as a 24lb injector.


could Joe stay with the 19s? sure, but if it were me i would want to know that my injectors can handle more power safely without taxing them.

edit: since, IIRC, he is running a stock SE PCM, he will have to get a tune anyways so why not just go with the 24lb injectors and be safe?

opps i thought the stock kit by burrita was with stock 19 lbs. :blackeye:
Either way...now thinking about it..swapping svt motor for a ported 3l i would stay with 19's. But if he's getting a tune done anyways i would go with 24lbs.

I just know people with 24lbs who ordered a tune..had problems getting it running right. So i didn't want to see it happening to him. To play it on the safe side i'd rather him get a tune for the 19's which have been done tons of times. And leave the 24's when he can get a in house tune done.

 

[Tex]

I just know people with 24lbs who ordered a tune..had problems getting it running right. So i didn't want to see it happening to him. To play it on the safe side i'd rather him get a tune for the 19's which have been done tons of times. And leave the 24's when he can get a in house tune done.

I think I know this person too, and their car ran like s#@^ with their NPG mail order tune on 24 lb injectors and was never right.

 

[striker2]

opps i thought the stock kit by burrita was with stock 19 lbs. :blackeye:
Either way...now thinking about it..swapping svt motor for a ported 3l i would stay with 19's. But if he's getting a tune done anyways i would go with 24lbs.

I just know people with 24lbs who ordered a tune..had problems getting it running right. So i didn't want to see it happening to him. To play it on the safe side i'd rather him get a tune for the 19's which have been done tons of times. And leave the 24's when he can get a in house tune done.

this is where i agree with you. if he is going to get a mail order tune, from say NPG, then just stick with the 19s since it has been done so many times. yes, your pushing the limits of them but it seems to be easier to get the car running right with them on a mail order tune. If he is going to get a dyno tune some place then go with the 24s as they will be able to better see whats going on with the car since its in front of them.




here is some more info I found.

according to these 2 sites
http://www.fuelinjector.citymaker.com/FORD_PASSENGER_CAR_FUEL_INJECTORS.html

http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tableifc.htm

from the first site, the 98 SVTC uses a Bosch 0-280-155-710 fuel injector. looking that part number up on the second site reveals its only rated at 18.25lbs/hr flow at 43.5PSI. with a BSFC of .52 at 95% duty cycle, each one is good for ~33.3 HP, times 6 gets you to 199.8HP.

the 96-98 duratec Taurus uses a Bosch 0-280-155-715 injector. they are rated at 22.45lbs/hr at 43.5PSI. with the same .52 BSFC and 95% duty cycle, each one is good for about 41HP, times 6 is 246HP.

while i cant seem to verify the injectors used in the later oval port 3Ls, i suspect they are Bosch 0-280-158-075 which are rated at 24lbs/hr at 43.5PSI. these are good for about 43.8HP, times 6 is 262.8.

Also, apparantely the 98 SEs are listed as having Bosch 0-280-155-725 injectors. those are listed as ALSO being rated at 18.25lbs/hr at 43.5PSI :shrug:

obviously, depending on your exact BSFC depends on how much HP you can get out of each injector at a given flow rate. a more effecient engine with a lower BSFC will be able to make more power on each injector.

 

[Harrry]

this is where i agree with you. if he is going to get a mail order tune, from say NPG, then just stick with the 19s since it has been done so many times. yes, your pushing the limits of them but it seems to be easier to get the car running right with them on a mail order tune. If he is going to get a dyno tune some place then go with the 24s as they will be able to better see whats going on with the car since its in front of them.




here is some more info I found.

according to these 2 sites
http://www.fuelinjector.citymaker.com/FORD_PASSENGER_CAR_FUEL_INJECTORS.html

http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tableifc.htm

from the first site, the 98 SVTC uses a Bosch 0-280-155-710 fuel injector. looking that part number up on the second site reveals its only rated at 18.25lbs/hr flow at 43.5PSI. with a BSFC of .52 at 95% duty cycle, each one is good for ~33.3 HP, times 6 gets you to 199.8HP.

the 96-98 duratec Taurus uses a Bosch 0-280-155-715 injector. they are rated at 22.45lbs/hr at 43.5PSI. with the same .52 BSFC and 95% duty cycle, each one is good for about 41HP, times 6 is 246HP.

while i cant seem to verify the injectors used in the later oval port 3Ls, i suspect they are Bosch 0-280-158-075 which are rated at 24lbs/hr at 43.5PSI. these are good for about 43.8HP, times 6 is 262.8.

Also, apparantely the 98 SEs are listed as having Bosch 0-280-155-725 injectors. those are listed as ALSO being rated at 18.25lbs/hr at 43.5PSI :shrug:

obviously, depending on your exact BSFC depends on how much HP you can get out of each injector at a given flow rate. a more effecient engine with a lower BSFC will be able to make more power on each injector.

I honestly was going to search this....which means you beat me to it :laugh:
This is important...because obviously it's not discussed that often. and people take it as a given. Good job..with bring this information to the table.

It seems weird that bosch's 98 se and svt have the same flow rate at the same psi. hmm. It has to be a typo. Can any on here with a 98 se...have a spare injector where they can post an injector #? Wait what color is it?

 

[striker2]

I honestly was going to search this....which means you beat me to it :laugh:
This is important...because obviously it's not discussed that often. and people take it as a given. Good job..with bring this information to the table.

It seems weird that bosch's 98 se and svt have the same flow rate at the same psi. hmm. It has to be a typo. Can any on here with a 98 se...have a spare injector where they can post an injector #? Wait what color is it?

its possible that the part number listed for SE is incorrect.

something for Joe, and anyone else who might be thinking about a split port 3L, to think about would be using the 22lb injectors from a split port Taurus. they are still EV1 connectors, so no splicing of wires, and they should have the correct spray pattern for the split port as well.

 

[blu_fuz]

Good info guys.

Yes, I was getting a tune that's why I asked.

I am unsure if my 17# injectors are EV1. Something is different and "top feed/bottom feed" comes to mind, but I am not sure what that changes in my application.

I will do a really good documented swap for the other '95 3L owners that retain the OBD1 system.

This is what I am thinking will happen:
-fuel injector clip won't fit
-splicing 19# or 22# or 24# injector harness will have to happen
-intake spacer will be needed because the injector splicing will take up too much room

After everything is swapped I expect the car to really run like crud until it is tuned. I have a 4 selection SCT Eliminator chip and can get 3 tunes "mail order" for $175.

I have a wideband O2 sensor now so I can atleast give some feedback on AFR to get the tunes correct. So basically, if I stick with the E0 injectors and harness, I only have to front $175 for my tunes and I am done. If I get the 22#-24# I will have added cost of approx $100-$150 and might not have good results with the tuning.

 

[Brokendown]

When people say mail order tunes and stuff like that...is there anything out there to do a custom tune? Can you do that with the SCT programmers? Obviously you would need a dyno but my school just got a sick one put in so I can use that

 

[Beans]

its possible that the part number listed for SE is incorrect.

something for Joe, and anyone else who might be thinking about a split port 3L, to think about would be using the 22lb injectors from a split port Taurus. they are still EV1 connectors, so no splicing of wires, and they should have the correct spray pattern for the split port as well.

I never even considered the split port Taurus injectors.... Very interesting..

 

[Tex]

When people say mail order tunes and stuff like that...is there anything out there to do a custom tune? Can you do that with the SCT programmers? Obviously you would need a dyno but my school just got a sick one put in so I can use that

If you don't know what you're doing, do NOT attempt to custom tune your car, or at least maybe take an Internal Combustion Engine theory class at your school. In addition, you'll need the software to program with the Xcal.