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flare on front brake hard lines...

S

SVT#4967

CEG'er
Joined
Sep 12, 2007
Messages
322
Location
Michigan
I am working on my brakes because of a leak in the hard lines at the rear of the car.

I started pulling off the rubber hoses from the hard line to the caliper so I could measure the threads and double check what I'll need for making my own braided hoses. I'll also be re-plumbing the hard lines with new tube.

My question is, what type of flare is on the front hard lines? It had a male threaded fitting on it but the flare looks like how a double flare looks after the first step and that it just isn't flared down to create the concave flare but rather leave it as a convex flare. Hope that makes sense.

I ask because I want to make sure I am going to be able to re-flare the new tube for that fitting. Otherwise I am thinking I may just redo it with a concave double flare and use a new fitting that is female threaded. I need to figure this out before I get the parts to make the braided hose, need to know if I need a male hose fitting or a female hose fitting for the fronts. I know I need male hose fittings for the rears since the hard line fitting is a female threaded one.

thanks
 
you need to have a "concave double flare" mated with a "convex double flare" for a good seal. which fitting, male or female, goes with which flare (convex or concave) is irrelevant.
 
ok, so to do a convex flare I just don't do the second step of a double flare correct? I just use a normal double flare tool, no special flare tool needed to do this?

Just to make sure I am clear, in these instructions...
http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/instructions/sum-900310.pdf
I would stop at Step 7 to create the convex flare and complete all steps to create the concave flare correct?

Sorry for all the questions but this is my first time doing this type of stuff so I just want to make sure I am doing it the right way.

Thanks
 
SVT#4967 said:
ok, so to do a convex flare I just don't do the second step of a double flare correct? I just use a normal double flare tool, no special flare tool needed to do this?

Just to make sure I am clear, in these instructions...
http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/instructions/sum-900310.pdf
I would stop at Step 7 to create the convex flare and complete all steps to create the concave flare correct?

Sorry for all the questions but this is my first time doing this type of stuff so I just want to make sure I am doing it the right way.

Thanks
Click to expand...
yup

5 char
 
great thanks.

I was searching around online yesterday and finally found where someone stated that was it. Now I just need to find some fittings for the hard lines cause some of mine a really rusted so I am just going to replace them.

I'll be ordering the tubing today so hopefully I will be putting the new lines in by early next week. I have to stop by this store that carries hose ends and braided hose to get pricing on the parts I need to make my braided hoses from the hard line to the calipers and see if they everything in stock.

Another quick question, the fittings on the brakes hard lines... are they M10 x 1.0? I could use whatever I guess since I'll be re-doing everything but I figure I will keep it stock just in case...

Looks like the last thing I need to find/figure out is the gas tank straps.

Thanks for your help!
 
The Contour, like some other Ford cars, comes with an M10-1.0 bubble flare. This "bubble flare" cannot be produced with conventional flaring tools used to do more old school IF or Inverted Flares.

To do a Bubble you need the proper tool. This can be had from Snap-On under the Blue Point logo and will take some time to learn to produce. A normal Autozone tool kit will NOT produce this.

http://brandsright.com/SK-Hand-Tool-Metric-Bubble-Flaring/M/B000VNHTXW.htm
 
So I need to do a bubble flare on one side and an inverted double flare on the other side when joining two hard lines?
 
SVT#4967 said:
So I need to do a bubble flare on one side and an inverted double flare on the other side when joining two hard lines?
Click to expand...

I'll check my hose kits on the wall for you tomorrow. I recall them being bubble but if they are IF (metric) I'll certainly correct any mis information. Sorry if I jumped the gun, I'll verify it for you. If Brian passes by he and a couple others might be quicker.
 
ok, thanks....

now what exactly do I need to do to join two hard lines? Do I use a bubble flare on one end and an inverted flare on the other so that the bubble flare sits into the inverted flare to seal it?
 
Do whatever you need to in order to join the parts correctly. If you're going to AN line you can do a simple single flare and compression B-nut assembly on a -3 bulkhead and then run a -3 swivel from that as part of the hose.

You can do 3/8IF on the hardline and get 3/8IF to -3AN adapters if you want. Same with M10- and either type of fitting.

You're at the wheel here. I'm just telling you what the flare is. If all of this is too confusing maybe you'd be better off leaving it alone and just buying the four line kit from someone??
 
haha, thats not what I'm confused about... and my question isn't referring to the connection at the wheel well.

I already have all the parts ordered and on their way for the braided hoses, no problem there. I didn't ask how to join the hard line to the flex hose, I was asking what is needed to join the 2 hard line sections. Like the front lines to the rear lines. I stopped by Inline Tube today and picked up new female and male M10x1.0 fittings to replace the nuts at the wheel wells for the SS braided hoses and also to replace the rusted unions between the front and rear lines.

Also, I've been advised to not make single 37* flares on anything but stainless steel tubing. If you are using steel tubing you should use the appropriate adapter for the fittings on your hard lines, which is what I will be doing.

For my car, it has a male M10x1.0 fitting in the front and a female M10x1.0 fitting in the rear. I will be switching the rear to match the fronts and have all four corners be male M10x1.0 fittings on the hard lines with a bubble flare, then I will have a concave flared female -3 fitting to mate the braided hose to the hard line.

So to reiterate... do you use a bubble flare on one hard line and an inverted double flare on the other hard line to make a union between two hard lines?

only made bold to make sure my question stands out, I'm not yelling or anything.
 
SVT#4967 said:
So to reiterate... do you use a bubble flare on one hard line and an inverted double flare on the other hard line to make a union between two hard lines?
Click to expand...

I cannot honestly see why you can't make one hardline bubble and the other IF into a union. What I'm having a hard time with is wondering where you'll find such a union. If I'm reading this right you'll looking for a female adapter with two different fitting types. Seem to only connect two harlines you could as easily do 3/8IF on it and pick up a union at NAPA. What am I missing??
 
I guess what I'm missing is what are you calling a "union"? Could you describe what I union is and how it seats with an IF and how it attaches to the hard line?

All of my searches on the internet come up with talk about compression fittings to join lines and also how compression fittings aren't good to do.

I'm going by how the lines look on the car. One male M10 going into a female M10 to join the two hard lines. So I am trying to do the same thing.

I'm not looking for a female adapter with two fitting types, just one.

My main concern is how do I properly join two hard lines? Is it how I have described in my above post/question or should it be done differently?

Now, I have taken the new M10 male and female fittings and tried a bubble flare on the male side, an IF on the female side and tightened them together to see how they match up and they seem to make good contact all the way around the flare.

I'm sorry for any confusion, I'm just trying to make sure I do this correctly. And since it's my first time doing things like this I have a bunch of questions and concerns that I want to clear up to save me from possibly having to do this all over again because I did something wrong. "Do it right the first time" sorta thing.

Thanks for the help, it's appreciated.
 
http://shop.easternmarine.com/images/product/5660.jpg

Here are unions. Just like a NAPA.

Joining hard line is not a big deal. What will be is if you choose to change fitting styles. I don't believe you'll easily find IF to Bubble type of union. Seating a bubble into an IF female 'might' seal up ok as you're forcing the IF to be produced into the bubble end. Certainly not idea. But going the other way; IF tube into bubble female I don't see working at all.

Lastly, don't forget that if you buy a section of line that terminates to a ss or rubber line that end must also be correct for what you plan to use there.

Good luck on all of it but be safe.
 
Lines are all metric on our cars. You need a metric flare kit to do it properly. Even if you do double flare and join them without leaks you will be stuck at ABS module and/or master cylinder. It's brakes you're playing with here, do it properly. Here is a tool I did my lines with. You can get 3/16 roll of line and metric fittings at your parts store. 4.76 mm is the size, which works on 3/16 lines.
Here is a tool I've used http://www.etoolcart.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=7424

in the garage we use snap-on universal hydraulic flaring tool which makes factory like flares of all kinds. http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item...group_ID=18146&store=snapon-store&dir=catalog

If you have never done a flare before practice on a scrap tube. Metric bubble is harder to make than any other.
 
Todd TCE said:
http://shop.easternmarine.com/images/product/5660.jpg

Here are unions. Just like a NAPA.
Click to expand...

ok, by looking at that picture it looks like the union is a fitting where you thread two male fitting into from each end and the insides of each side have an inverted flare in it for the bubble to seat against. If I am understanding you correctly.

This would explain the confusion of you thinking I am looking for a fitting with two different styles.

Here is a picture of the lines in the car. The first one is of one in the engine bay that is cleaner, the other is of the ones at the gas tank which I am replacing while I replace the rear lines. The reason for replacement is pretty evident.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e64/smart-aleck/Miscellaneous/100_2049.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e64/smart-aleck/Miscellaneous/100_1941.jpg

This is the type of "union" I am trying to achieve. I hope this make more sense now as I think I understand where the confusion was before.
 
over_30k said:
Lines are all metric on our cars.
Click to expand...

they are 3/16, I measured them. The fittings are metric though.

over_30k said:
Even if you do double flare and join them without leaks you will be stuck at ABS module and/or master cylinder.
Click to expand...

and why is that? As long as I use the proper flare and size fitting I don't see any problem. Besides, right now I am mostly concerned with the rear of the car. Most likely, after my vacation since I want the car for the vacation, I plan to get back into it and re-plumb the front of the car which would at that time include the MC and ABS module.

over_30k said:
It's brakes you're playing with here, do it properly.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, maybe it's because I'm tired but are you serious?? Don't you figure I realize that by all the questions and precautions I am taking to make sure I do this correctly? And to make sure I understand what it is I am doing?

over_30k said:
You can get 3/16 roll of line and metric fittings at your parts store.
Click to expand...

I couldn't find anywhere locally that sold un-flared tubing. So I bought it by the roll at Summit. I bought steel because I originally couldn't find any flare tools that would flare stainless steel for a decent price. After trying a couple flare tools I found one that I really like for the bubble flare and it can flare stainless I'm told. So I am going back and picking up the double flare tool from them which also flares stainless. I will still run the steel lines for now but since I plan to reroute the lines in a way that I hopefully don't have to run above the gas tank I may decide to redo it later with stainless. Also, it was quite hard to find metric fittings, finally found them but most of the part stores looked at me like I was nuts.

over_30k said:
If you have never done a flare before practice on a scrap tube. Metric bubble is harder to make than any other.
Click to expand...

I agree. And I planned for this and have been practicing. I found a nice bubble flare tool that works really nice and easy. It's made by Imperial and they say it can flare stainless. My first bubble flare came out nice! Felt very easy, not sure if I got lucky but I don't think the metric bubble flare is too bad at all. I will be picking up the double flare tool by Imperial tomorrow and trying that out after I get back from the holiday weekend.

Right now though, with the IF in the female fitting and the bubble flare in the male fitting, when put together they appear to seal nicely. And this is how it appears to be done on the car as it is from the factory.

Again, I appreciate all the help and suggestions. Hopefully this will help others out as well.
 
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