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boost leak or turbo lag?
- Thread starter mixtape
- Start date
the wastegate is connected via the bottom port to the intercooler. The mbc is in line.
The bov is sourced to the UIM.
Odd, I wouldnt think there to be stalling issues with a recirculated BOV. I didnt even recirculate mine HKS SSQV and it wouldn't stall coming off boost to idle. However, it would stall in that situation with my leaky RFL BOV. I wonder if there is a vac leak elsewhere in the system causing both problems?
Adam, my car will stall if I am into the throttle in the mid rpm range and have to hit the brakes and come to a stop. It could be the cheap bov or its in the tune would be my guess.
Which is exactly why I mentioned removing or pressurizing the BOV and going for a drive, which would prove instantly if it is the real problem or not.
Hey guys, I wanted to post an update.
New TiAL QR bov is installed!
I went with the 11psi spring (20in/hg idle) recirculating
I replaced the Type H RFL, but it's still not showing boost in first gear. I hear the turbo spooling, but vacuum/boost gauge reads zero. Car will only boost in second gear and up, with heavy throttle.
I (unfortunately) almost have it down to a science. I cannot boost from a stop, but if I'm cruising, around 3000RPM in second or third gear, I can go WOT and boost.
I don't think this is normal, so I'm thinking it's a leak. I know I know, I should check the wastegate next lol :help:. but it's way down in the engine bay, and with these 20 degree temperatures lately, I was hoping the BOV was the culprit :blackeye:.
To further explain what happens in first gear:
I idle at 20in/hg.
At WOT in first gear, I hit 0in/hg, but can hear the turbo spooling.
I rev it out, shift into second, and then I build boost.
New TiAL QR bov is installed!
I went with the 11psi spring (20in/hg idle) recirculating
I replaced the Type H RFL, but it's still not showing boost in first gear. I hear the turbo spooling, but vacuum/boost gauge reads zero. Car will only boost in second gear and up, with heavy throttle.
I (unfortunately) almost have it down to a science. I cannot boost from a stop, but if I'm cruising, around 3000RPM in second or third gear, I can go WOT and boost.
I don't think this is normal, so I'm thinking it's a leak. I know I know, I should check the wastegate next lol :help:. but it's way down in the engine bay, and with these 20 degree temperatures lately, I was hoping the BOV was the culprit :blackeye:.
To further explain what happens in first gear:
I idle at 20in/hg.
At WOT in first gear, I hit 0in/hg, but can hear the turbo spooling.
I rev it out, shift into second, and then I build boost.
BAD SVT
Addicted CEG'er
Sounds like its the way you routed ur vacuum lines thats causing the issue. Unfortunately, i've no idea what u've got going on with ur setup there, so i won't be able to advise accordingly.
Edit- I just went back & re-read the thread. My thoughts are the same with 2000zx. Post a diagram of how ur vacuum is routed. Not sure if it's a big deal, but my vacuum guage reads 15mmhg @ idle. And i routed the wastegate to the bigger tube on the Upper Intake Manifold. It's a larger vacuum source & so you build pressure quicker that way. It looks like u've got urs connected to the smaller tube.
Edit- I just went back & re-read the thread. My thoughts are the same with 2000zx. Post a diagram of how ur vacuum is routed. Not sure if it's a big deal, but my vacuum guage reads 15mmhg @ idle. And i routed the wastegate to the bigger tube on the Upper Intake Manifold. It's a larger vacuum source & so you build pressure quicker that way. It looks like u've got urs connected to the smaller tube.
Hey there, thank you for the input! However you mentioned that your wastegate is routed to a bigger vacuum source on the UIM, though, from what I understand, isn't the wastegate supposed to be connected to a positive boost line and not a vacuum line? I know that the BOV operates differently, via vacuum pressure, but I thought that the wastegate used boost to signal the spring when to open, and not vacuum pressure. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
If I had to guess, I'd say that the wastegate opens as it should, because I never see over 8PSI on the boost gauge. Though,that's not to say that the wastegate isn't leaking, or that a gasket is leaking, or one of the cold side pipes/tubing isn't leaking :blackeye:. BrApple mentioned that the car was leak tested at the shop, but I'm thinking about maybe doing another test once it gets warmer out. A leak in the cold piping, or leaking wastegate gasket, could make the turbo work much harder to make that 8PSI of boost.
Or maybe this is just boost lag? Is anyone runnning a turbo with similar specs? Do you have boost in first gear?
Master Power turbo (T3 turbine)
.50 compressor A/R (48 trim)
.63 turbine A/R (83 trim)
Plus, that's a good point on the vacuum reading. I was under the impression that 20 in/hg was the norm for our cars. Is it possible that yours is different due to your car having a 3L, whereas I'm still running the stock 2.5L SVT engine?
Below is how the wastegate is connected:
Thanks guys!
BAD SVT
Addicted CEG'er
My mistake. I meant the BOV. Route it into through the larger vacuum line on ur UIM. See if there's a difference.
BAD SVT
Addicted CEG'er
Ok, i just went out & took a look @ my setup. The Wastegate & BOV both source their vacuums at a 'T' junction that goes all the way to the vacuum bundle by the firewall. In other words, my wastegate & BOV source their vacuum from the same place.
BAD SVT
Addicted CEG'er
Good point. Quite possible...
crewchiefpro
Hard-core CEG'er
I can get boost in first gear but keep in mind that boost requires LOAD, no load, no boost. This isn't a diesel which can develop boost with no load. If I get more than 3 lbs of boost in first gear then it just spins the tires relentlessly, which really isn't loading the engine much.
I can't get over that piping to the throttle body, talk about a steep turn... That has to be limiting HP, it nearly chokes off the intake.
I can't get over that piping to the throttle body, talk about a steep turn... That has to be limiting HP, it nearly chokes off the intake.
bhiggs89
Veteran CEG'er
Having had both a turbo 2.5 and 3L I can tell you that the vacuum reading at idle will be the same on both, with the same setup.
After reading your current update I too thought about load, but I don't think that is the issue.
Do you still have secondaries? (IMRC). Are you saying that in 1st gear WOT until redline that your boost gauge shows no boost? Besides the turbo noise, does it feel like it pulling like it has boost (rapid accelerating), or does it feel sluggish?
When I still had the stock 2.5 boost in 1st gear from a dead stop WOT took a while, and wouldn't really start until after the IMRC's were open, so after 4K rpm's is when it would start pulling.
Are there any dyno's in your area? Might be worth your time/money just to throw the car on there and try to locate any possible issues in a more controlled environment.
*Edit*
After looking at your new pictures again, I agree with my Dad, that coupler going to the TB is a big problem. It appears that it is bent in half, which means you are only able to allow about an inch or so of air to pass through, which will really choke the turbo. This could also explain the issues with 1st gear.
After reading your current update I too thought about load, but I don't think that is the issue.
Do you still have secondaries? (IMRC). Are you saying that in 1st gear WOT until redline that your boost gauge shows no boost? Besides the turbo noise, does it feel like it pulling like it has boost (rapid accelerating), or does it feel sluggish?
When I still had the stock 2.5 boost in 1st gear from a dead stop WOT took a while, and wouldn't really start until after the IMRC's were open, so after 4K rpm's is when it would start pulling.
Are there any dyno's in your area? Might be worth your time/money just to throw the car on there and try to locate any possible issues in a more controlled environment.
*Edit*
After looking at your new pictures again, I agree with my Dad, that coupler going to the TB is a big problem. It appears that it is bent in half, which means you are only able to allow about an inch or so of air to pass through, which will really choke the turbo. This could also explain the issues with 1st gear.
BAD SVT
Addicted CEG'er
If anything mixtape, what we've learned so far is that there's so much going on with ur setup that it's proving difficult to track down the issue. Personally, i dont think that kink should make that huge a difference of 0lbs-8lbs. If u redline first gear, there's plenty load that u should be able to read at least some positive boost, not zero.
Thank you everyone for the feedback. I really do appreciate it!
That harsh bend by the throttle body was due to the tight squeeze of the intercooler. Unfortunately, the fuse box keeps the intercooler from being able to move over any further. The hose if definitely collapsing :help: Though, I'm not sure if that is causing the problem in first gear, since the car will boost in second gear onward. Don't get me wrong though, I am sure it's robing me of power. I'm just not sure how to fix it with so little room to work with :blackeye:.
I just made a video, which I will post in a few minutes. It may help explain the problem a bit more than I can express in just words. Plus it's fun to watch
.
I wasn't expecting it to take 4000 RPM to get going, but maybe each setup is different. Each turbo size, etc.
For the record, I do not lose traction in first gear. Even on a cold winter day with all season tires. I do chirp the wheels while shifting into second.
Thank you everyone!
EDIT:
Here is the YouTube link for my second video:
Link to video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ke5UEVTfEnE&hd=1
Embedded video:
Good to know that we at least have that similar lol. The rest of my "kit" is quite different from everyone else :help::laugh:.
I have an SHO Shop flywheel, which I believe is a tad bit lighter than the stock CSVT flyhweel, but nowhere as light as my old aluminum flyhweel (pre-turbo setup I had). So the load should be somewhat similar to a stock CSVT in first gear. Which, now that I think about it, is a very short gear. I still thought I'd make a pound or two of boost :shrug:. Is this turbo really that big (lag)? Or perhaps a boost leak, making the turbo work harder to keep boost in the cold pipes?
That harsh bend by the throttle body was due to the tight squeeze of the intercooler. Unfortunately, the fuse box keeps the intercooler from being able to move over any further. The hose if definitely collapsing :help: Though, I'm not sure if that is causing the problem in first gear, since the car will boost in second gear onward. Don't get me wrong though, I am sure it's robing me of power. I'm just not sure how to fix it with so little room to work with :blackeye:.
Is my idle vacuum acceptable? If it were leaking, wouldn't it be sporadically bouncing up and down with a rough idle?
I still have secondaries. Hard to tell though.
I just made a video, which I will post in a few minutes. It may help explain the problem a bit more than I can express in just words. Plus it's fun to watch
.Interesting. I recall reading how first gear was almost "unusable" due to extreme tire spinning.
I wasn't expecting it to take 4000 RPM to get going, but maybe each setup is different. Each turbo size, etc.
For the record, I do not lose traction in first gear. Even on a cold winter day with all season tires. I do chirp the wheels while shifting into second.
There's a shop in Old Bridge (near me) called "JDS Motoring." Apparently they have a good reputation with custom cars. I haven't contacted them yet, but I was considering seeing what they could do. Perhaps fix that bend by the throttle body, check for boost leaks, and run a dyno to see what's going on with the car.
Thank you everyone!
EDIT:
Here is the YouTube link for my second video:
Link to video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ke5UEVTfEnE&hd=1
Embedded video:
Last edited:
bhiggs89
Veteran CEG'er
For 1st gear only these are my thoughts: Because you have secondaries you are essentially getting ~1.25L of displacement through the UIM until 4K (3750) rpm's. This means that the exhaust going to the turbo will be relatively week. Combine that with the coupler at the TB choking off even more of that air volume, and add the fact that 1st gear is very short. This equals a very limited air volume when secondaries are closed, when they open the volume is increased, but by the time the turbo sees the benefits of increased exhaust volume 1st gear is almost over....however when in the upper (longer) gears you are able to see the appropriate amount of air volume to generate boost, which is why 3rd is "working" for you and you are able to get full boost.
I haven't compared your turbo specs to mine, but if it is "larger" then this will only exaggerate the problem, causing more time to "spool" the turbo.
Again those are just my thoughts. It would be helpful if we could get an incar video of WOT from a dead stop through 3rd gear, or a video of each gear if the mods will allow it.
Yes those vacuum readings are very similar to what mine are, with both the 2.5 and 3L, as well as my Dad's.
When I was on the stock 2.5 I had some traction problems depending on conditions in the very top of 1st (5500-7K rpms), with a 3L it becomes worse with the increase in torque. So something is definitely wrong with your current setup
I haven't compared your turbo specs to mine, but if it is "larger" then this will only exaggerate the problem, causing more time to "spool" the turbo.
Again those are just my thoughts. It would be helpful if we could get an incar video of WOT from a dead stop through 3rd gear, or a video of each gear if the mods will allow it.
Yes those vacuum readings are very similar to what mine are, with both the 2.5 and 3L, as well as my Dad's.
When I was on the stock 2.5 I had some traction problems depending on conditions in the very top of 1st (5500-7K rpms), with a 3L it becomes worse with the increase in torque. So something is definitely wrong with your current setup
ContourGuy9817
Hard-core CEG'er
that bend at the TB has no effect on an inability to boost. i just dont want you to kill yourself tryin to change it and be let down!
striker2
Official CEG Vendor
your vacuum line routing sounds like its not a problem, nor is the size of the lines. lets put it this way, I have 4mm line going to both of my wastegates coming from a boost only source before the TB, and 6mm line going to my BOV hooked in after the TB. also, the size of your turbo is the same as what comes with the standard NPG kit.
from the last video it looks like your tune could use some work. It is possible that its just so far off that the lower load in 1st gear is enough that it cant build boost. also, I saw high 13 A/F in boost in the upper RPMs, thats pretty dangerous. btw, you might think about making a cheap camera mount for in the car.
question: where does the larger line from the side of the intercooler lead? the one on the opposite end tank as the wastegate port.
from the last video it looks like your tune could use some work. It is possible that its just so far off that the lower load in 1st gear is enough that it cant build boost. also, I saw high 13 A/F in boost in the upper RPMs, thats pretty dangerous. btw, you might think about making a cheap camera mount for in the car.
question: where does the larger line from the side of the intercooler lead? the one on the opposite end tank as the wastegate port.
If I remember correctly, that line connects to the IC pump or the water tank. Though ultimately, both lines eventually head back to the water tank.
Build Update:
Due to the problems listed in the above posts, I decided to change my setup a bit. The harsh kink near the TB, and the boost issue in 1st gear, made me want to go back to the drawing board. Plus bhiggs89 had a good suspicion that the secondaries were restricting the turbo's ability to build boost before 3750RPM. So the perfect remedy to all three problems was simple, remove the engine, locate any leaks, and of course, 3L :shocked:.
The engine bay is cramped, so checking for leaks will most likely result in removing a lot of the kit anyway. So it makes sense to pull the engine. Plus running a full 3L would remove secondaries, and thus, would eliminate the limited air flow in the low RPM range (not to mention the awesome increase in low end pre-boost torque).
I'm hoping to start the project within the next few months. I'm currently working out the shipping details for a 2005 Sable engine with around 20k miles on it. As usual, Greg will be helping me out at his awesome AirCougar shop. I have a few questions though that I'll add to the end of this post.
Here is the last video I took of the car in its current condition (2.5L with boost issue):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37mkzQvzIE4
Questions:
1. My car is an e0, 1998 CSVT, so I believe I'm running a return style fuel system. What will I have to do in order to use a 2005 Sable 3L in an e0 CSVT? I think I remember reading about having to go returnless in order to use the full 3L. Is it not possible to use the return style system with the Sable engine? I recall something about brazing lines or a possible need for an adapter. So if I must go return style, does that mean I'll need a fuel pressure regulator? I believe the e1 ECU does all the fuel regulations in the newer CSVTs, but I'm running the original e0 ECU.
Striker2, you wrote in an old thread that: Return style pumps are designed to run at full voltage 100% of the time, while returnless pumps are designed to handle a modulated voltage to maintain the proper pressure. The returnless system pump is a variable speed pump. The PCM watches fuel pressure and adjust pump speed as necessary.
2. I've read that the stock fuel pump can support up to ~300hp, but a turbo 3L will most likely be pushing the stock pump's limits. Can I get away with using the stock pump? If not, Walbro sells two pumps that are rated 255LPH. The GSS317 and the GSS340. The first one I believe is "normal" and the second one is a "high pressure "pump. Both seem to be rated at 255lph. What is the difference? Which would be ideal for my application?
3. With my stock engine, I kept the boost set to around 7 or 8 PSI. Should I keep that number consistent on a full 3L setup? Can the 3L handle more/less boost? I can't really see myself needing more than 9 or 10 PSI. Traction is a major issue with our platform. FWIW, I'll be running a full 3L with '05 3L cams and intake manifold. I know that the size off a turbo plays a big roll in power/PSI, so I'll list my turbo specs below. What are your opinions based on the turbo size?
Master Power turbo (T3 turbine)
.50 compressor A/R (48 trim)
.63 turbine A/R (83 trim)
4. Is anyone familiar with Sniper Tuning or Delta Force Tuning? This is the software that Greg uses at his shop. Is there an easy way to tune out the secondaries from the ECU?
As always, thanks a lot everyone. I'm glad to be back at it.
Due to the problems listed in the above posts, I decided to change my setup a bit. The harsh kink near the TB, and the boost issue in 1st gear, made me want to go back to the drawing board. Plus bhiggs89 had a good suspicion that the secondaries were restricting the turbo's ability to build boost before 3750RPM. So the perfect remedy to all three problems was simple, remove the engine, locate any leaks, and of course, 3L :shocked:.
The engine bay is cramped, so checking for leaks will most likely result in removing a lot of the kit anyway. So it makes sense to pull the engine. Plus running a full 3L would remove secondaries, and thus, would eliminate the limited air flow in the low RPM range (not to mention the awesome increase in low end pre-boost torque
).I'm hoping to start the project within the next few months. I'm currently working out the shipping details for a 2005 Sable engine with around 20k miles on it. As usual, Greg will be helping me out at his awesome AirCougar shop. I have a few questions though that I'll add to the end of this post.
Here is the last video I took of the car in its current condition (2.5L with boost issue):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37mkzQvzIE4
Questions:
1. My car is an e0, 1998 CSVT, so I believe I'm running a return style fuel system. What will I have to do in order to use a 2005 Sable 3L in an e0 CSVT? I think I remember reading about having to go returnless in order to use the full 3L. Is it not possible to use the return style system with the Sable engine? I recall something about brazing lines or a possible need for an adapter. So if I must go return style, does that mean I'll need a fuel pressure regulator? I believe the e1 ECU does all the fuel regulations in the newer CSVTs, but I'm running the original e0 ECU.
Striker2, you wrote in an old thread that: Return style pumps are designed to run at full voltage 100% of the time, while returnless pumps are designed to handle a modulated voltage to maintain the proper pressure. The returnless system pump is a variable speed pump. The PCM watches fuel pressure and adjust pump speed as necessary.
2. I've read that the stock fuel pump can support up to ~300hp, but a turbo 3L will most likely be pushing the stock pump's limits. Can I get away with using the stock pump? If not, Walbro sells two pumps that are rated 255LPH. The GSS317 and the GSS340. The first one I believe is "normal" and the second one is a "high pressure "pump. Both seem to be rated at 255lph. What is the difference? Which would be ideal for my application?
3. With my stock engine, I kept the boost set to around 7 or 8 PSI. Should I keep that number consistent on a full 3L setup? Can the 3L handle more/less boost? I can't really see myself needing more than 9 or 10 PSI. Traction is a major issue with our platform. FWIW, I'll be running a full 3L with '05 3L cams and intake manifold. I know that the size off a turbo plays a big roll in power/PSI, so I'll list my turbo specs below. What are your opinions based on the turbo size?
Master Power turbo (T3 turbine)
.50 compressor A/R (48 trim)
.63 turbine A/R (83 trim)
4. Is anyone familiar with Sniper Tuning or Delta Force Tuning? This is the software that Greg uses at his shop. Is there an easy way to tune out the secondaries from the ECU?
As always, thanks a lot everyone. I'm glad to be back at it.