3L is toast

[SicSE]

maybe, maybe not ... in this case it seems that the wrong cam caps where used or they where put back in the wrong order and that is going to cause all sorts of problems.

I have seen very similar damage at least four times on different engines. All four had bottom end damage. I've seen cam caps in the "wrong order" a number of times, again, on a few different engines and it's never resulted in what we're seeing here. I've also seen cap bolts overtorqued to the point of stretching the threads, and some breaking... still not resulting in the damage in these pics. I would bet a nice knot that a previous owner took the thing apart to try and see what was wrong and didn't put the caps back in the right order. I'd also put a good amount down that there is bottom end damage.

 

[todras]

Where do you think that metal that came off the heads went? All over that engine.

 

[OB1]

Calm down & wait there is only one way to find out if there is bottom end damage & since I have so much free time on my hands when I get done w/ the swap I'll probably play around w/ this block some if Trey doesn't need it for anything that is.

 

[icysvt]

Calm down & wait there is only one way to find out if there is bottom end damage & since I have so much free time on my hands when I get done w/ the swap I'll probably play around w/ this block some if Trey doesn't need it for anything that is.

we should have a good low mileage block here so i say we tear it down and i slowly buy parts and we make a built bottom end 3l. i'll have plenty of time to do it lol

 

[Stazi]

That's what happens when people who don't know what they're doing, build engines.
Cam caps cannot be swtiched from their original positions let alone to another head. :nonono:

 

[icysvt]

That's what happens when people who don't know what they're doing, build engines.
Cam caps cannot be swtiched from their original positions let alone to another head. :nonono:

I dont know for sure that these are in fact the svt heads cam caps but since the svt heads that are in the trunk have no caps I would say it is a good assumption.:blackeye:

 

[SicSE]

Cam caps cannot be swtiched from their original positions

You should say that they shouldn't be switched from their original positions. I've seen a few different engines that suffered no ill-effects from cam caps being switched from their factory spots.

 

[icysvt]

Car is now loaded on a tow dolly ready to leave going to ob1's house for its heart transplant and reassembly!

 

[OB1]

You should say that they shouldn't be switched from their original positions. I've seen a few different engines that suffered no ill-effects from cam caps being switched from their factory spots.

I'll second that but again its not a risk I'd take.

 

[todras]

You should say that they shouldn't be switched from their original positions. I've seen a few different engines that suffered no ill-effects from cam caps being switched from their factory spots.

Umm not a Duratec. Do you comprehend what line boring is/does?

 

[icysvt]

Umm not a Duratec. Do you comprehend what line boring is/does?

so what would happen if say you broke one or lost one etc... for some reason you had to get another one. Your saying basically that you have to buy an entire head with cam caps and all?

 

[BurritaSVT]

When they crack the caps off they all are fractured at different spots and different angles and even different heights. If you switch the caps they will definitely have problems since not one cap is identical to other at the least you will get uneven wear and of course the worst will be this. They drill the holes through the block while it is solid and then they fracture them across the holes. Joey

 

[todras]

Yessir.

 

[icysvt]

When they crack the caps off they all are fractured at different spots and different angles and even different heights. If you switch the caps they will definitely have problems since not one cap is identical to other at the least you will get uneven wear and of course the worst will be this. They drill the holes through the block while it is solid and then they fracture them across the holes. Joey

hmmmm learn something new every day. It's all good though guys. The new motor will not have the untimely death that this one did. I cant wait to drive it!

 

[todras]

Just like you can't mix rod caps for the pistons.

 

[SicSE]

Umm not a Duratec. Do you comprehend what line boring is/does?

Yes on a Duratec... two of the engines I referred to were 3L DURATEC's that had the cam caps in different places with no resulting damage. How many engines have you personally cracked open yourself to find that switched cam caps were the root cause of something like this? And I'm not talking about getting the car from someone else who's already been working on it.

Line boring is just how the hole is bored for the cam. It has nothing to do with what we're talking about here. The cam is the same size at the first cap as it is at the last, and the accomodating hole in the head/cap, is also the same size at the first cap, as it is the last.

Switching the caps is not recommended because each cap develops a wear pattern in it's factory-installed position. After developing this wear pattern in one spot on the cam, swapping it to another spot can cause accelerated wear and, possibly valvetrain noise. This doesn't mean that it WILL... just that it COULD.

so what would happen if say you broke one or lost one etc... for some reason you had to get another one. Your saying basically that you have to buy an entire head with cam caps and all?

You get a new cap if all the tolerances are in spec... that's all.

When they crack the caps off they all are fractured at different spots and different angles and even different heights. If you switch the caps they will definitely have problems since not one cap is identical to other at the least you will get uneven wear and of course the worst will be this. They drill the holes through the block while it is solid and then they fracture them across the holes. Joey

True... for the rods. This process is not performed on the cam caps, OR the duratec block. They are machined mating surfaces.

 

[BurritaSVT]

you are incorrect on the cam caps are not done milled the reason is. They have to drill a exact size bore with .05 oil clearance so you would drill 1.55" bore and the 1.5 being the cams' OD and the .05 being oil clearance giving you .025 total of celarance on each side. Now we all know there is no such thing as a oval drill bit so if you drill this hole through the head with 1.55" from the side at even plane then they hone the hole out some to a finish then they crack the cast across the hole because if you were to cut the with a laser or anything else you would cut away some material leaving the hole oval shaped. Where fracturing does not take away metal beside break apart the molecules. The reason you can get away with the cam caps being swap sometimes is because the oil clearance in the cams are much bigger because it does not have to support the loads of the rods so you have more room error. If the cam caps were milled down then why would you not be able to swap the caps because they would cut the heads across the holes being not center leaving room for milling then would do the same for the caps. This process would allow you interchange the caps since the machines can precisily cut within .0005 and milling can bring it down in increments for oil clearances. Into someone proves this I by using some hard evidence I am going to to stick with fracture methods for cams caps. joey

http://www.babcox.com/editorial/ar/eb60240.htm

 

[SicSE]

If the cam caps were milled down then why would you not be able to swap the caps

You ARE able to, it's just not recommended because, as I said previously,
each cap develops a wear pattern in it's factory-installed position. After developing this wear pattern in one spot on the cam, swapping it to another spot can cause accelerated wear and, possibly valvetrain noise.

I am going to to stick with fracture methods for cams caps. joey

We can agree to disagree. In the meantime, the next time you have a chance, look at the mounting surfaces of the cam caps - they will be flat and smooth. Now compare those to the mounting surfaces of cracked rods - they are not flat or smooth by any stretch of the imagination. This is the idea of the cracking process. It creates a uniqueness for the cracked piece. If the cam caps were indeed, cracked, they would NOT be interchangeable at all... and you could certainly never "get away" with putting them anywhere but in their factory-installed positions.

 

[icysvt]

pic I took this morning when I took off on the way to OB1's! I cant wait to get her back!

 

[OB1]

It was cool hangin with you today as well. I wished the whole crew lived closer together.