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my roommates 3L vs 4cyl question

D

DopePope

Veteran CEG'er
Joined
Sep 21, 2003
Messages
863
Location
Fairfield, CA
Hey team, I've been here a while, but my roommate asked me a question I didnt really (apparently) have a good answer for... as I'm not super education on cars, so thought i'd ask you guys.
He wanted to know why everyone seems to put the 3L in, instead of building up a 4cyl with cosworth parts or something.:shrug:
All I could really mention was availability of parts, proven to work, cost etc...
He seems to think we'd be in the 12's that way...
 
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not that i necessarily have a good answer either but i would guess on a basic level that the cars being upgraded to 3.0 are already v6 models...its not a case of 4bangers being converted to 6cyls....the zetec would be unreasonable to upgrade to 3.0 based on a post last week or so on the same subject (going from 4 to 6cyl)....

in other words v6 stay with v6, i4 stay with i4
 
well its simple. you can get more power out of a bigger 3.0l then a 4 banger. it goes back to the saying there is no replacement for displacement
 
mdbsbl8 said:
well its simple. you can get more power out of a bigger 3.0l then a 4 banger. it goes back to the saying there is no replacement for displacement
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Bingo! And cosworth parts are expensive, not to mention manufactured over seas. I believe it would be alot cheaper to to upgrade the 2.5L to the 3L than modifying the cosworth parts to fit properly.
 
Either way you wont be in the 12s. The power is there with the 3.0L and FI.

FWIW, a stock bottom end 3.0L has held up to 400 whp. I seriously doubt a zetec will do that without dropping about $1200+ on rods and pistons. And then theres the whole issue of the zetec cams that fall on their face with FI (i.e. look at Strikers dyno graph). I can't imagine Cosworth cams being cheap. Building a FI 2.0L doesn't have any advantages to a FI 3.0L imho. At the end of the day, the 3.0L is stronger, takes better to boost, and is less expensive.
 
the power is there to get lower than the 12's if the tour is on any type of diet. i've seen pgt's get into the 11's and 12's w/less power.:shrug:
 
beyondloadedSE said:
Either way you wont be in the 12s. The power is there with the 3.0L and FI.

FWIW, a stock bottom end 3.0L has held up to 400 whp. I seriously doubt a zetec will do that without dropping about $1200+ on rods and pistons. And then theres the whole issue of the zetec cams that fall on their face with FI (i.e. look at Strikers dyno graph). I can't imagine Cosworth cams being cheap. Building a FI 2.0L doesn't have any advantages to a FI 3.0L imho. At the end of the day, the 3.0L is stronger, takes better to boost, and is less expensive.
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I have to agree with your statment on the cams but only with the stock overlap. there was a magazine that turboed a focus. in stock trim they made about 187WHP on 7PSI with a T3/T4. they adjusted their cam gears and made an extra 40HP:shocked: heres the link. in fact their dyno plot before the cam gear changes looks almost exactly like mine. it does still fall off but power is definitely increased. a simple cam swap will fix that and should improve power even more.

I think the advantage the zetec has is the lack of low end torque will help keep traction down low. (not to mention the car weighs about 300lbs less than a v6 version) based on my calculations if i can hit about 260-270WHP and can keep traction the car should be able to run 12s.
 
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I know traction has always been a severe problem for our platform, but then again, it seems like there is a limited (if any) option for parts that can improve traction. Does anyone know the actual problem with the platform (beside FWD), or is it still a mystery? It is painfully obvious that an Accord laying down the numbers that Ryan's (the turbo) car is pushing would be WELL into the twelves, and the weight difference between his car and a 99 Accord is not outlandish.
 
yeah no doubt the powers there. the probes i've seen in the 11's and 12's were only making 300-325whp. and a fully loaded pgt is 2950lbs:shrug:
issues are weak axles. things like traction bar's and hd axles would help. that and i'm not aware of anyone that's built a full out drag car..lexan windows,fully gutted..
 
cobrawannabe said:
I know traction has always been a severe problem for our platform, but then again, it seems like there is a limited (if any) option for parts that can improve traction. Does anyone know the actual problem with the platform (beside FWD), or is it still a mystery? It is painfully obvious that an Accord laying down the numbers that Ryan's (the turbo) car is pushing would be WELL into the twelves, and the weight difference between his car and a 99 Accord is not outlandish.
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I'd be inclined to think it's a balance/weight transfer issue. Be interesting to corner weight both cars and see what the bias was on each, then look at the wheelbases and compare them to where the powerplant is sitting.
 
95pgt-t said:
yeah no doubt the powers there. the probes i've seen in the 11's and 12's were only making 300-325whp. and a fully loaded pgt is 2950lbs:shrug:
issues are weak axles. things like traction bar's and hd axles would help. that and i'm not aware of anyone that's built a full out drag car..lexan windows,fully gutted..
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this would be my guess as to why no 12's...nobody has made a full out drag 'tour. I think tho people who don't know much about contiques see the numbers and think we all must be doing something wrong. it frustrates me quite a bit actually.
 
Well it is that and the fact that some platforms do somethings better. Take a 1979 Malibu. Throw a ton of cash at it and it will still likely get spanked on an autocross course or road course by a well prepped contour making far less power. Now take the a '79 Malubu and put $2000 into it and watch it run 10.5's at the drags, on street tires. The contours, with some small mods can make their way around a road course very nicely....the fact is that front wheel drive cars have a disadvantage when launching. Sure a gutted probe may run 11.5's, but it will be making quite a bit of power to overcome the slow start due to traction. And I bet the Malibu guy spent way less LOL.

I think that is the reason you don't see as many low ET FWD cars at the drags and few buick grand nationals at the road course LOL. It is not that you CAN'T do it. You can if you have plenty of money and or know how to do the fab work yourself. You do see the occasional pioneer out there making the sick numbers etc or the guy in the station wagon at the autocross, but the car is usually a one-trick pony that has no business being on the street (or if it is street able it isn't competitive on the track etc).

You wouldn't use Rollerblades to hike K2, know what I mean?
 
95pgt-t said:
wrong..there are plenty of fwd car's that break 10's or lower.
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Very true Chris, those hondas etc are stripped out race cars. Strip that 'Bu out and drop the same coin on it....read my post above, they're one trick ponys and have high dollar engines

If your sole objective is to be the fastest at the drags, don't start with a fwd car. There are some fast FWDs for sure but they get there despite being FWD, not because they're FWD.

Don't get me wrong, the contour platform is fantastic. FWD's aren't bad. You'd be hard pressed to find a RWD car, at the price of an SHO or a CSVT that can be driven at 10/10'ths as easily.

At the end of the day you could surely strip a contour platform down to nothing, toss a motor in it with a huge turbo and break into the 11's. Then again, that is about all you could do with it and there;s be guys out there who are still far faster. This brings us back to my first reply where I think weight transfer and balance front to rear are an issue. God knows there are some SHO's out there running tons of HP and they're not even close to making 11's as far as I know. I mean a Mustang (right about the same weight as an SHO give or take a hundred pounds)with the same #s would be whooping on the SHO in the 1/4 mile....and be able to do it for two days straight....the SHO'd need two extra trannies LOL. b It comes down to traction and the FWD cars have physics against them.
 
Ya, I think 12's, even 11's are in this platform, we just need to coax them out. A VERY good point was made with the whole Malibu thing, and it was 110% correct, but when you sit in a quick tour, you can feel it. The car can be quick. It certainly has the power band, and it has the stiffness, we just need to find a way to move the weight farther up when the right foot gets heavy:shrug: . As far as axles go, any more power seems unnecessary, it seems like the car just needs to get it's act together traction wise...
 
no..i agree w/you that fwd is def'n the wrong platform to strat from for dragging..no two ways about it. but it doesn't mean the end of the world if you have a fwd. you can still be sucs. at dragging. its just going to cost more to get there,and take a higher toll on your car's drivetrain
 
beyondloadedSE said:
Either way you wont be in the 12s. The power is there with the 3.0L and FI.

FWIW, a stock bottom end 3.0L has held up to 400 whp. I seriously doubt a zetec will do that without dropping about $1200+ on rods and pistons. And then theres the whole issue of the zetec cams that fall on their face with FI (i.e. look at Strikers dyno graph). I can't imagine Cosworth cams being cheap. Building a FI 2.0L doesn't have any advantages to a FI 3.0L imho. At the end of the day, the 3.0L is stronger, takes better to boost, and is less expensive.
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:rolleyes: if you were sending both cars about to the shop to have to work done
:help: then its going to cost you about that JUST to put in a 3L
 
rods and pistons are only going to cost about $800. the cost of a 3L is what, about $500? pulling a zetec is much easier than the V6 and from what ive read you still have to do some modifactions to the 3Ls before they go in. i say the cost of the swap vs. the cost of the rods/pistons is pretty negligable. i can build a turbo kit for the zetec at about the same cost of NPGs for the V6. so now both cars are boosted for about the same amount of money (although the zetec will be cheaper to buy initially so that will help in this case). you get 400WHP out of a turbo 3L which is about twice the stock power. there have been numerous STOCK foci hitting 300WHP, thats TRIPLE the stock power levels. plus the 3L turbo is basically useless until top of 3rd and up. the turbo zetec can be used without issues in 1st gear. Zetecs can make plenty of power, espicially on a built engine, and its all usable.

im putting down 200WHP on a dynapack dyno (typically reads about 10% lower than a dynojet so it would be about 220WHP) with only 10PSI from a T3 turbo. with cam gears and a little more boost (bump it to about 15PSI) i should probably be near the 300WHP mark. thats turbo 3L territory, however i dont spin the tires in 1st and 2nd cause it is only a 4cyl.

and for the record, Zetecs love boost just as much, if not more, than duratechs. Iron block FTW :D
 
striker2 said:
rods and pistons are only going to cost about $800. the cost of a 3L is what, about $500? pulling a zetec is much easier than the V6 and from what ive read you still have to do some modifactions to the 3Ls before they go in. i say the cost of the swap vs. the cost of the rods/pistons is pretty negligable. i can build a turbo kit for the zetec at about the same cost of NPGs for the V6. so now both cars are boosted for about the same amount of money (although the zetec will be cheaper to buy initially so that will help in this case). you get 400WHP out of a turbo 3L which is about twice the stock power. there have been numerous STOCK foci hitting 300WHP, thats TRIPLE the stock power levels. plus the 3L turbo is basically useless until top of 3rd and up. the turbo zetec can be used without issues in 1st gear. Zetecs can make plenty of power, espicially on a built engine, and its all usable.

im putting down 200WHP on a dynapack dyno (typically reads about 10% lower than a dynojet so it would be about 220WHP) with only 10PSI from a T3 turbo. with cam gears and a little more boost (bump it to about 15PSI) i should probably be near the 300WHP mark. thats turbo 3L territory, however i dont spin the tires in 1st and 2nd cause it is only a 4cyl.

and for the record, Zetecs love boost just as much, if not more, than duratechs. Iron block FTW :D
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But then you have the not so good 4 cyl suspension on there. That is another few hundred to upgrade.

And I don't understand the whole double vs triple hp thing. In the end doesn't it all come down to what car is faster? Not only that but I doubt the turbo 4 cyl can come close to the 3.0L turbo in trap speed. Burreta is trapping, at what, close to 120mph?

But i wouldn't mind a turboed ztec either. :)
 
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