striker2
Official CEG Vendor
shouldnt be possible since, like i mentioned, its the leading edge of the counterweight that rests against the pin. that said, I have always gotten it close to TDC and then installed the pin, as you suggest.
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Crankshaft pulley timing marks
- Thread starter UmmScott
- Start date
have never seen a zetec crank so i wasn't sure it was possible for the pin to stop the crank at any other possion.
I made my own pin tool from Haynes Focus manual spec out of a long bolt. I move within 10 degrees of TDC and then insert the pin, crank strikes it perfect at the pulley mark, uh yeah, the pulley mark that doesn't exist. You know, it might not even be exact splithair TDC on that particular engine. Doesn't matter as long as you have a solid positive stop to be able to repeat to say change up timings to non stock numbers. Using a screwdriver means you have absolutely no idea where or which way the error is, all you can do is re-screwdriver it and hope for the best. I would not refer to someone doing that as expert regardless of the number of videos sold.
I'm sure I have not done as many zetecs as others, but I haven't had 20% error with timings and resultant engine performance issues either as someone else has admitted. That's not something to brag about, the screwdriver method is the reason for that error.
I'm not surprised, same person has some arcane theory about 'neutralling sprockets' to prevent belt troubles. Some black magic there if you ask me...............
I could use a degree wheel and show you how there is easily several degrees of error all day long using a screwdriver. Even with the best of eyesight. The piston simply moves too slowly there to be sure of true TDC.
No, I don't degree in stock cams, but using the pin you can be sure of timings enough to be moving them to non stock locations say if one wanted to advance for more bottom end or somesuch. Oops, I forgot, that means the sprockets will not be 'neutral', the motor won't run.............
I have had no trouble at all with belt walking or engine performance issues and I never loosen sprockets on either VCT or nonVCT zetecs. Simply no need.
Thank you striker2...........
I'm sure I have not done as many zetecs as others, but I haven't had 20% error with timings and resultant engine performance issues either as someone else has admitted. That's not something to brag about, the screwdriver method is the reason for that error.
I'm not surprised, same person has some arcane theory about 'neutralling sprockets' to prevent belt troubles. Some black magic there if you ask me...............
I could use a degree wheel and show you how there is easily several degrees of error all day long using a screwdriver. Even with the best of eyesight. The piston simply moves too slowly there to be sure of true TDC.
No, I don't degree in stock cams, but using the pin you can be sure of timings enough to be moving them to non stock locations say if one wanted to advance for more bottom end or somesuch. Oops, I forgot, that means the sprockets will not be 'neutral', the motor won't run.............
I have had no trouble at all with belt walking or engine performance issues and I never loosen sprockets on either VCT or nonVCT zetecs. Simply no need.
Thank you striker2...........
It is possible if the pin isn't cut the right length. Since Ford actually put out a TSB describing how and why you neutral the cam gears I'm going to go ahead and say that you can stop talking like I just made that procedure up. If you set the crank to TDC with a screwdriver (which has been done since modern combustion engine) the belt won't go on if you are off enough to cause an issue. The funny thing is that I can actually data log my car and see that the crank is set fine. I've had my belt off 3 times and each time I set it with a screw driver and I get 180 pounds of compression and the engine runs perfect. Just because you can't figure it out or over think it, doesn't mean it won't work.
and just because there are other ways to do it doesn't make them the correct and proper way to get the job done .... its a two way street here ....
don't get me wrong, I have used a screw drive down the spark plug hole to help confirm TDC. used the timing marks to get it set otherwise. that was the first time, the second time I had the Ford tools and used those. its so simple I don't see any reason to bother with going about it any other way.
Never said it wouldn't work. However, you yourself admitted it only works like 80% of the time for you.
My pin made to exact length measured. You are indeed right, it must be certain length.
The word neutral being misused here by somebody. I really don't care if Ford used it or other. The motor CANNOT run in said implied condition realworld as crank is constantly dragging the other assemblies along. They hold back resistance by friction. The two gears will automatically 'neutral', if you will, the belt run between themselves and the crank, by frictional drag. All that remains is to previously have the sprocket/cam relationship correct and locked down tight. If the motor is rolled around several times in direction of rotation and then timing position checked again (VCT against stop) and tensioner in range you are good to go, sprockets previously loosened/retightened or not.
I feel the Ford emphasis on loosening sprockets to in essence forget that last sentence (at least the rookies do) I wrote causes much trouble. The loosening was to guarantee re-springup of the VCT cylinder but not necessary at all since a hex casted on the cam to bring it up anyway. Service manual highly unorganized makes you look for that springup by hand procedure, it's misplaced elsewhere, should be in actual belt timing section. Good job Ford.
When you loosen sprockets, you are just retightening them back down (hopefully exactly) where they were before. Many though lose that cam/sprocket phasing due to incompetence. Face it, most will do the procedure only once and give up at crappy result to take vehicle to a mech. That's why I think Ford procedure is screwed, it confuses the issue.
I haven't done as many zetec as some, but my success rate is 100%. Every one has run perfectly.
By the way, forgive me all, sometimes I come across as a dick. My bad. I have no personal bones to pick with anyone, I'm just kinda anal retentive about things.
My pin made to exact length measured. You are indeed right, it must be certain length.
The word neutral being misused here by somebody. I really don't care if Ford used it or other. The motor CANNOT run in said implied condition realworld as crank is constantly dragging the other assemblies along. They hold back resistance by friction. The two gears will automatically 'neutral', if you will, the belt run between themselves and the crank, by frictional drag. All that remains is to previously have the sprocket/cam relationship correct and locked down tight. If the motor is rolled around several times in direction of rotation and then timing position checked again (VCT against stop) and tensioner in range you are good to go, sprockets previously loosened/retightened or not.
I feel the Ford emphasis on loosening sprockets to in essence forget that last sentence (at least the rookies do) I wrote causes much trouble. The loosening was to guarantee re-springup of the VCT cylinder but not necessary at all since a hex casted on the cam to bring it up anyway. Service manual highly unorganized makes you look for that springup by hand procedure, it's misplaced elsewhere, should be in actual belt timing section. Good job Ford.
When you loosen sprockets, you are just retightening them back down (hopefully exactly) where they were before. Many though lose that cam/sprocket phasing due to incompetence. Face it, most will do the procedure only once and give up at crappy result to take vehicle to a mech. That's why I think Ford procedure is screwed, it confuses the issue.
I haven't done as many zetec as some, but my success rate is 100%. Every one has run perfectly.
By the way, forgive me all, sometimes I come across as a dick. My bad. I have no personal bones to pick with anyone, I'm just kinda anal retentive about things.
There is nothing wrong with using the TDC peg you bought from Ford, but Ford isn't the only one that sells them now are they? You can't trust aftermarket manufactures to make things to the same exacting standards. That would be like saying a stage 2 clutch from Exedy is just as good as one from ACT.
When did I say that using the screwdriver was only 80% successful? If you install a belt and the teeth don't mesh exactly to the gears they cannot neutral themselves out. The belt will simply wear sooner and since the tension between the gears won't be correct, the belt will walk off starting at the cam gears. It also won't be perfectly mechainically timed.
Again, it is obvious you don't really understand why the VCT has to be reset and why the teeth on new components won't always mesh properly with the cam gears. The VCT lug (hole in the front of the cam) is infinitely adjustable. If you remove the VCT hub you can put that lug anywhere you want. If you remove the belt and then move the exhaust cam, you might notice the VCT will wind up and spring forward independent of the cam. If the belt jumps or breaks during operation, that lug can stop anywhere. You'll still be able to get the cam lock tool in but you might notice the cam won't stop at TDC. If this is the case, the VCT gear has to be removed and reset.
I really don't care how you do it. What I do care about is you giving wrong information out. I literally wrote the how-to for the Zetec (even shops have used it) and I draw from, not only experience with many Zetecs, but from discussions with Ford techs. One of our resident Team Zx2 members is a retired Ford engineer. So, you can trust some guy that has so far gotten lucky with his timing or you can trust the guy that knows the reasoning behind why these TSB's are out and why the work, and who has actually discussed this with the techs from Ford.
Well, well.
'When did I say that using the screwdriver was only 80% successful?'
You didn't say that, you said you had VCT error problems with about 20% of the ones you did a while back. I locked onto that statement and stashed it mentally. In zetec performance section here I believe, I could not get into archive to retrieve it. Look hard enough and you will find it. Or maybe not, huh. I figured we were past it enough so that you'd be denying it.........
'If you install a belt and the teeth don't mesh exactly to the gears they cannot neutral themselves out.'
??? That sentence is engineer doubletalk meaning absolutely nothing. NO belt (or chain) meshes exactly until you line up the parts. Please point out to me how any other engine on the planet does it without all the mumbo-jumbo. EVERY engine either belt or chain driven has to have cam so-called 'neutral' out to the crank or distributor gear or whatever other part is in the train. If you are referring to cam to sprocket itself, the cam can be bolted up tight without being in any exact location except the one you desire to put it in, i.e., it can be retarded or advanced as desired up to enough timing to create troubles either way. Only exception here is VCT since the sprocket must be bolted on in such a way as to maintain cam phasing since cam is read on other end for positioning. Again, another major reason NOT to loosen exhaust cam, you risk not getting it back in proper place. It makes no difference whatever as to the 2 cam gears being slightly off from each other, they CANNOT STAY THAT WAY since engine rotation will allow them to, oh my goodness, neutral themselves to each other as they settle in to the belt teeth. You seem to think there is some sort of locked in distance between sprockets that cannot change during running, that's just plain goofy. The only locked in distance is tooth spacing and the only error that can be there is an entire tooth off if parts not loosened and tension set right.
'the tension between the gears won't be correct'
If you roll engine around and tensioner in range, no problem. What do you think the engine will do? It pulls from one direction ONLY. The applied tension will absolutely be much higher than just allowing all sprockets to 'neutral' to each other at engine rest via loosening of sprockets. Making that highly touted point useless and my sides hurt.
'Again, it is obvious you don't really understand why the VCT has to be reset and why the teeth on new components won't always mesh properly with the cam gears. The VCT lug (hole in the front of the cam) is infinitely adjustable. If you remove the VCT hub you can put that lug anywhere you want. If you remove the belt and then move the exhaust cam, you might notice the VCT will wind up and spring forward independent of the cam. If the belt jumps or breaks during operation, that lug can stop anywhere. You'll still be able to get the cam lock tool in but you might notice the cam won't stop at TDC. If this is the case, the VCT gear has to be removed and reset.'
No kidding. Do you reckon that if you did not loosen the exhaust cam none of that would or even COULD happen????? Tell me of more Ford brilliance, I'm swooning. As for the lug stopping anywhere, not true, it fits into the oil feed ring exactly halfway between the triple hole set and mark hole. There is a hole to put lug in. If not halfway between the hole patterns as mentioned, damaged and both pulley and VCT cylinder need replacing per Ford instructs. Between VCT cylinder and the feed ring, oil supply is staggered at three 120 degree angles to prevent backdrain out of the cylinder when engine shuts down. If the lug goes anywhere as you say, then you risk startup exhaust cam snapping from VCT cylinder oil draining out at hot shutdown. That feed ring is timed to the VCT cylinder by the lug. It is the CAM itself that can go in anywhere radially inside the ring and VCT assembly. Look at the parts. There is an internal stop that positively limits radial travel, if you'd use that cam casted hex, you'd know that. VCT cannot just spring anywhere radially as the spring must have a certain amount of push back to bring the cam back advanced against the direction of normal rotation. Any less assist would result in codes. If the cam does not stop at TDC then it has not been brought against the stop internally before timing. Again, if parts not loosened that CANNOT happen. You are way unnecessarily complicating matters, the only thing that matters is that VCT cylinder must be against internal stop at the time camtool goes in to prevent overadvance.
I've had the cylinder off, took maybe 15 seconds to figure out how it works. The stuff I got is from Ford 1999 Contour/Mystique service manual dated 12-98, basic engine-2.0L, section 303-01A-11, "working on the VCT unit". Maybe YOU should go back and study it, that's where I got my info.
Gotten lucky so far with his timing? That's rich. I was timing chain driven twin cam engines similar to this back in early eighties on motorcycles, including custom timings with tight fit interference motors (79-83 Honda DOHC). I have degreed in so many automotive engines of various types it's not funny, but that has no worth apparently to you of the screwdriver clan. I have built myriad small and big block engines Chev, Ford and Mopar, lots of AMC up to prostock motors. While I respect engineers I also take them with a grain of salt, they flub up just like everyone else. By the way, there was NEVER a need to 'neutral' twin cam drives. Arcane BS like I said.
The information I give out will work on any VCT zetec, sorry if it seems I'm pouring water on your dvd sales. There are many ways to do many things, please don't run me down just because you don't like what I say.
'When did I say that using the screwdriver was only 80% successful?'
You didn't say that, you said you had VCT error problems with about 20% of the ones you did a while back. I locked onto that statement and stashed it mentally. In zetec performance section here I believe, I could not get into archive to retrieve it. Look hard enough and you will find it. Or maybe not, huh. I figured we were past it enough so that you'd be denying it.........
'If you install a belt and the teeth don't mesh exactly to the gears they cannot neutral themselves out.'
??? That sentence is engineer doubletalk meaning absolutely nothing. NO belt (or chain) meshes exactly until you line up the parts. Please point out to me how any other engine on the planet does it without all the mumbo-jumbo. EVERY engine either belt or chain driven has to have cam so-called 'neutral' out to the crank or distributor gear or whatever other part is in the train. If you are referring to cam to sprocket itself, the cam can be bolted up tight without being in any exact location except the one you desire to put it in, i.e., it can be retarded or advanced as desired up to enough timing to create troubles either way. Only exception here is VCT since the sprocket must be bolted on in such a way as to maintain cam phasing since cam is read on other end for positioning. Again, another major reason NOT to loosen exhaust cam, you risk not getting it back in proper place. It makes no difference whatever as to the 2 cam gears being slightly off from each other, they CANNOT STAY THAT WAY since engine rotation will allow them to, oh my goodness, neutral themselves to each other as they settle in to the belt teeth. You seem to think there is some sort of locked in distance between sprockets that cannot change during running, that's just plain goofy. The only locked in distance is tooth spacing and the only error that can be there is an entire tooth off if parts not loosened and tension set right.
'the tension between the gears won't be correct'
If you roll engine around and tensioner in range, no problem. What do you think the engine will do? It pulls from one direction ONLY. The applied tension will absolutely be much higher than just allowing all sprockets to 'neutral' to each other at engine rest via loosening of sprockets. Making that highly touted point useless and my sides hurt.
'Again, it is obvious you don't really understand why the VCT has to be reset and why the teeth on new components won't always mesh properly with the cam gears. The VCT lug (hole in the front of the cam) is infinitely adjustable. If you remove the VCT hub you can put that lug anywhere you want. If you remove the belt and then move the exhaust cam, you might notice the VCT will wind up and spring forward independent of the cam. If the belt jumps or breaks during operation, that lug can stop anywhere. You'll still be able to get the cam lock tool in but you might notice the cam won't stop at TDC. If this is the case, the VCT gear has to be removed and reset.'
No kidding. Do you reckon that if you did not loosen the exhaust cam none of that would or even COULD happen????? Tell me of more Ford brilliance, I'm swooning. As for the lug stopping anywhere, not true, it fits into the oil feed ring exactly halfway between the triple hole set and mark hole. There is a hole to put lug in. If not halfway between the hole patterns as mentioned, damaged and both pulley and VCT cylinder need replacing per Ford instructs. Between VCT cylinder and the feed ring, oil supply is staggered at three 120 degree angles to prevent backdrain out of the cylinder when engine shuts down. If the lug goes anywhere as you say, then you risk startup exhaust cam snapping from VCT cylinder oil draining out at hot shutdown. That feed ring is timed to the VCT cylinder by the lug. It is the CAM itself that can go in anywhere radially inside the ring and VCT assembly. Look at the parts. There is an internal stop that positively limits radial travel, if you'd use that cam casted hex, you'd know that. VCT cannot just spring anywhere radially as the spring must have a certain amount of push back to bring the cam back advanced against the direction of normal rotation. Any less assist would result in codes. If the cam does not stop at TDC then it has not been brought against the stop internally before timing. Again, if parts not loosened that CANNOT happen. You are way unnecessarily complicating matters, the only thing that matters is that VCT cylinder must be against internal stop at the time camtool goes in to prevent overadvance.
I've had the cylinder off, took maybe 15 seconds to figure out how it works. The stuff I got is from Ford 1999 Contour/Mystique service manual dated 12-98, basic engine-2.0L, section 303-01A-11, "working on the VCT unit". Maybe YOU should go back and study it, that's where I got my info.
Gotten lucky so far with his timing? That's rich. I was timing chain driven twin cam engines similar to this back in early eighties on motorcycles, including custom timings with tight fit interference motors (79-83 Honda DOHC). I have degreed in so many automotive engines of various types it's not funny, but that has no worth apparently to you of the screwdriver clan. I have built myriad small and big block engines Chev, Ford and Mopar, lots of AMC up to prostock motors. While I respect engineers I also take them with a grain of salt, they flub up just like everyone else. By the way, there was NEVER a need to 'neutral' twin cam drives. Arcane BS like I said.
The information I give out will work on any VCT zetec, sorry if it seems I'm pouring water on your dvd sales. There are many ways to do many things, please don't run me down just because you don't like what I say.
Uh, here we go..............
Thread-'98 2.0 zetec timing belt problem on 6-23-10
'It is obvious to me that I've probably done more Zetec timing belts than a Ford dealer. Most of them I didn't follow the TSB for and only about 20% of them exhibited problems associated with not following the TSB.'
Your words.
Screwdrivers rule.
I wholeheartedly apologize for any seeming taking out of context done. My bad memory shows here, it was not directly concerning VCT issues alone. I mainly remembered the 20%...........
Thread-'98 2.0 zetec timing belt problem on 6-23-10
'It is obvious to me that I've probably done more Zetec timing belts than a Ford dealer. Most of them I didn't follow the TSB for and only about 20% of them exhibited problems associated with not following the TSB.'
Your words.
Screwdrivers rule.
I wholeheartedly apologize for any seeming taking out of context done. My bad memory shows here, it was not directly concerning VCT issues alone. I mainly remembered the 20%...........
zorrex
Enjoys the Abuse
Crank pin aside, the timing marks on the pulley should always line up with the line on the oil pan. The pulley is keyed. If you find TDC this way, it should 100% always line up.
I have no idea if anyone else sells the pin. I got one and it worked great. the first time I had to change the belt I didn't have the crank pin. used the timing mark on the crank and indexed everything. belt went right back on. this is on a non-vct zetec btw.
I don't think anyone will argue that aftermarket items are always made right. just another reason to stay with OEm items, even with a higher cost, imho.
When looking for the damper mark, look close for TWO possibly, the second one is the one to use. Was looking at mine today, it's got 2 on it. I believe the first one past the oil pan bump is an advance timing mark, the second one is for TDC. Put both marks at top of damper, the one on left is the one to use. Line it up with the oil pan bump line.
Hey guys, just wanted to say that i got my new timing belt on with success. The timing pin and flat bar worked without a flaw. Its odd, when i used the timing pin, the marks on the crank damper were not even close to the hump on the oil pan. I swear i think im driving a different car! It must have been out of time since i got it. It doesn't hesitate on acceleration anymore and has decent power without downshifting on the highway.
Before i was only using the flat bar for the cams because for some reason i thought the pin was for the VCT engines only. Now i know. thanks for all your help
Before i was only using the flat bar for the cams because for some reason i thought the pin was for the VCT engines only. Now i know. thanks for all your help
see that's funny, mine has two and i'm pretty positive that my first mark is what marks TDC. with all of the differences in the marks on these cars i'm starting to think that they might not serve any purpose at all. IMO i think what a person really needs to do, if they are really concerned about the timing mark is locate TDC and the clean that crap out of the crank pulley and mark it on their own with a paint marker. or i suppose you could use a file to make a notch or something like that.
zorrex
Enjoys the Abuse
mcgarvey
Veteran CEG'er
That only works on 95-98. After that it's an upper and lower oil pan, totally different with no notch.
striker2
Official CEG Vendor
my 97 didnt even have a notch on the pulley (and obviously the UDP didnt either) so using the TDC pin was the best and easiest way to guarantee it was at TDC.
I've already sold one as result of this thread. You can say what you want but when you say something that can cause someone to do the job wrong or have to take it in because you told them resetting the VCT isn't needed, that is when I have an issue.
I'll make this easy for you since you don't like actually getting updated procedures. I'll scan the TSB in after diner and post it for you.
Scorpion8
Hard-core CEG'er
I have the whole 99-25-4 TSB if anyone needs it, PM me with an e-mail address. I've been collecting info on this whole set-up and following thris thread because of these posts here and here . I've got my project 98 SE VCT Zetec (not the one in my signature) in pieces in my driveway (that's the way I dragged it home, w/a box of parts the former owner removed thinking he could do this) and I'm terrified of getting into the procedure. All the squabbling doesn't help, as one would think that there would be a single, unified "standard" way of doing these. And since our Ford dealer closed awhile back, there's very little assistance in my area. So, unless some knowledgeable CEG'er is on a cruise thru Alaska and happens to be dropping by .....