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steel vs stainless headers (aka - MSDS vs RaceBits) :)

D

dlphnfn

Veteran CEG'er
Joined
Oct 27, 2006
Messages
687
Location
Central Iowa
With the 2 header group buys going on with *great* deals, I'm contemplating both. I've googled the difference between the two types, and it seems that the consensus is that stainless is prettier and basically lasts forever, steel requires a coating so it doesn't rust out and it will chip and rust sometime in its life if it's used heavily (dd). Temps can get hot enough to flake some coatings too (or so I read).
My car is getting to be more and more of a garage queen, so I don't care about use. I do like the look of stainless, but you can't see it anyway. :crazy:
What are pros and cons of each system? Which one is a "best buy" if they are the same price? (Damn close to that now!) Are there any differences in sound? I'm guessing not much if any.
Given the 2 "as they sit" I'm leaning toward Racebits because of the Y Pipe having a nice rounded turn.
Racebits - Stainless :drool:, better (?) turn in the Y, $400 to your doorstep, but you need to add O2 bung.
MSDS - tried and true! :cool:, slightly cheaper, $380 to your doorstep, but it has that ugly turn in the Y (which I'm not even sure if it's an actual "problem").
Erick --
 
my headers with jet hot coating have held up very well. and with the turbo they are seeing ~1500 degrees according to my egt guage.

yes I would say for a DD the stainless headers would be slightly better because they will not rust. However it also depends on the quality of the stainless. Real cheap stainless can still rust some over time. look at the stock SVT exhaust system, its stainless also.

I am also not sure the bend in the y-pipe is an issue. I believe it actually helps to build some torque. But I can't swear to that.
 
Harrry said:
Stainless hands down.
Click to expand...

Glad we are getting a lot of support, we are selling dozens of these a week 95% mainly uk and Europe. These are getting good gains we have Rolling roaded a few on our remap sessions and on the road give a lot extra response mid to top end.

We developed these with our knowledge and much input from various forums to make the best they can be instead of just copying the Standard one but removing the decats. One big change is just the Y-pipe the stanard is known for restricting the gases from the back bank and blocking the cat up as well. On our tests and feedback received from customers there is a good gain not just BHP but overall response from just the Y-pipe alone.

I have an interest as one of my cars is a modified Mondeo V6 I can assure everyone that we are going to continue to develop modifications for this car and we are not just selling low to get rid of stock. But we have always been fair developers/Distributors that don't believe in selling at high prices.
 
BrApple said:
...However it also depends on the quality of the stainless. Real cheap stainless can still rust some over time. look at the stock SVT exhaust system, its stainless also...
Click to expand...

Not true. It all depends on the type of stainless steel not the 'cheapness' of it. 400 series SS will eventually stain/corrode sometimes in just a few months. 300 series SS will last quite a while but can eventually corrode ( but not rust). Most common in this series is T-304, this is what the WeaponR headers and I believe the new Racebits headers are made from. They will last quite a while, especially if coated with a high temp clear. T-316 is probably the best stainless you can get, but very few headers are made from it. A good summary of different stainless steels can be found here.

Harrry said:
Stainless hands down.
Click to expand...

I agree 100%.
 
i hope to have my racebits headers installed as soon as i get my clutch and o2 bungs welded on
 
Stainless is totally unnecessary for these cars. The ceramic coating is the best choice hands down. Stainless is only worth extra money in applications where they are actually visible.

Neither product is likely to rust out before the frame of the car does, as they rarely get wet, and the high temps immediately burn off any water that splashes up from the bottom while driving. Just about every car on the road (including these ones) comes from the factory with uncoated steel manifolds that rarely fail. Having said that, its always a good idea to protect any bare steel when given the opportunity. At a minimum, a couple coats of high temp paint, but ideally the ceramic coating. The ceramic acts as an insulator to minimize underhood temps. Thats valuable because headers have WAY more surface area than manifolds, and dont have any heat shields or insulation like our precats do so give up a lot more heat to your engine bay.

I say buy whichever set you can get ceramic coated and in your hands for the lowest cost. Performance gains will be comparable to eachother, as neither set appears from the pictures to use equal length tubes which is usually the first step in header design. (not the only step, but it should be a given)
 
in the rust belt here, we need all the help we can get so ss for sure. but just cause someone else isnt going to see the headers doesn't mean you shouldn't spend the time or money to make it look good.

of course its up to each person but i say for the money, go ss.
 
mmc757 said:
Stainless is totally unnecessary for these cars. The ceramic coating is the best choice hands down. Stainless is only worth extra money in applications where they are actually visible.

Neither product is likely to rust out before the frame of the car does, as they rarely get wet, and the high temps immediately burn off any water that splashes up from the bottom while driving. Just about every car on the road (including these ones) comes from the factory with uncoated steel manifolds that rarely fail. Having said that, its always a good idea to protect any bare steel when given the opportunity. At a minimum, a couple coats of high temp paint, but ideally the ceramic coating. The ceramic acts as an insulator to minimize underhood temps. Thats valuable because headers have WAY more surface area than manifolds, and dont have any heat shields or insulation like our precats do so give up a lot more heat to your engine bay.

I say buy whichever set you can get ceramic coated and in your hands for the lowest cost. Performance gains will be comparable to eachother, as neither set appears from the pictures to use equal length tubes which is usually the first step in header design. (not the only step, but it should be a given)
Click to expand...

I have news for you...your accountability based on your years of personally experience fails to back your theory on if the steel headers is similar to the SS offered esp on our cars. Living in Michigan. i regret not getting the weapon r's when i had the chance. Biggest regret! My msds y-pipe rusted like no tomorrow...and my special ordered hot temp coating that msds shipped out to a jet hot coating company flaked off and the headers started rusting in 2 years. Now the rust has spread...and the welds are full of rust. Considering i put literally 3k miles a year on my car. It hasn't seen much of the abuse many others on here have given the msds headers. Imho...it was my biggest mistake.


On the side of looks! I can def see my headers from the top of my car. And when i showed off my SS tru duals...others always snooped under my car to see the whole exhaust. After all the hard exhaust bending and welding went to crap when you saw the front end of the exhaust. So yes it's crucial esp when your car is meant for more then just a daily driver. :shrug:
 
Harrry said:
I have news for you...your accountability based on your years of personally experience fails to back your theory on if the steel headers is similar to the SS offered esp on our cars. Living in Michigan. i regret not getting the weapon r's when i had the chance. Biggest regret! My msds y-pipe rusted like no tomorrow...and my special ordered hot temp coating that msds shipped out to a jet hot coating company flaked off and the headers started rusting in 2 years. Now the rust has spread...and the welds are full of rust. Considering i put literally 3k miles a year on my car. It hasn't seen much of the abuse many others on here have given the msds headers. Imho...it was my biggest mistake.


On the side of looks! I can def see my headers from the top of my car. And when i showed off my SS tru duals...others always snooped under my car to see the whole exhaust. After all the hard exhaust bending and welding went to crap when you saw the front end of the exhaust. So yes it's crucial esp when your car is meant for more then just a daily driver. :shrug:
Click to expand...

Thats unfortunate that your coating failed. Your experience is not necessarily a common story though. If you didnt already, you should consider pursuing warranty replacement, as that coating should only fail if it wasnt properly applied in the first place (unless it took some damage somehow such as bottoming out while driving or getting dropped before installation). Either way, its no reason to get snotty. Just state your position so the OP can get the input he's looking for. You did point out something I didnt really address though, that the Y-pipe most definitely gets wet, and even though the stock one is just steel, any opportunity to use a better product should not be passed up.
 
CSVT#49 said:
Not true. It all depends on the type of stainless steel not the 'cheapness' of it. 400 series SS will eventually stain/corrode sometimes in just a few months. 300 series SS will last quite a while but can eventually corrode ( but not rust). Most common in this series is T-304, this is what the WeaponR headers and I believe the new Racebits headers are made from. They will last quite a while, especially if coated with a high temp clear. T-316 is probably the best stainless you can get, but very few headers are made from it. A good summary of different stainless steels can be found here.
Click to expand...

doh! I should have remembered that. That is what I was trying to get at. Thanks for explaining it better.
 
All I know is that I am as excited as a kid in a candy shop about my Racebits... That said, I have never heard of anyone ever complain about stainless before... Looking forward to having no skin left on my knuckles one of these weekends... ;)
 
Hydrargyrum said:
All I know is that I am as excited as a kid in a candy shop about my Racebits... That said, I have never heard of anyone ever complain about stainless before... Looking forward to having no skin left on my knuckles one of these weekends... ;)
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There are a few mustang guys that have headers and y-pipes made of T-409 as well as some Focus owners with a header that have complained... you can find some nasty looking pics, but that said they haven't corroded through from what I've seen so it's purely aesthetic.
 
i didnt get to reading all of this thread, but i think i should say my 2 cents. take it or leave it.

i had stainless headers on my contour (weapon R) and loved them. the only spot where i had any corrosion whatsoever was on the rear flange weld on the Y pipe, just the weld seemed to rust/corrode a little bit. the rest of them looked like new (minus a little "purpling")


on snowmobiles, i have a little bit of experience with ceramic coating. the pros : it looks good and can be polished (usually comes polished by an automoated machine)

"most" ceramic coatings are rated for 1400 degrees constant. the problem with ceramic coating is it is very easily damaged. also, oil will almost instantly dull and possibly damage the coating, which is a problem unless you do your oil changes very carefully.

personally, if you are running a N/A exhaust system, i would go with a black ceramic coating, which is cheaper and won't be so ugly after it gets a scratch or two on it (you'll scratch your headers almost indefinately while installing them or installing an engine, unless your good "like me" lol)

if you are running a turbo'd setup, i recommend using an internal coating such as a "swain tech" coating on the inside (2000+ degrees) and a black ceramic on the outisde with header wrap to finish it all off. stealthy, and functional.

every "big boy" turbo setup i've seen has no coating on the downpipe, and just header wrap on it. i assume that would be because the turbo just gets too hot for any coating to stand up on the exit side of the turbo. i dunno :p
 
CSVT#49 said:
There are a few mustang guys that have headers and y-pipes made of T-409 as well as some Focus owners with a header that have complained... you can find some nasty looking pics, but that said they haven't corroded through from what I've seen so it's purely aesthetic.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I believe 409 stainless has a high metallic content making it a "magnetic" stainless. It's kind of like a cheap trash version of 304. I think alot of OEM so called stainless exhausts are made of 409, making them last longer than mild steel, but eventually they start looking nasty.

321 or Inconel is for the ballers! Something you should look more into for your engine build Mike. :cool:
 
mmc757 said:
Thats unfortunate that your coating failed. Your experience is not necessarily a common story though. If you didnt already, you should consider pursuing warranty replacement, as that coating should only fail if it wasnt properly applied in the first place (unless it took some damage somehow such as bottoming out while driving or getting dropped before installation). Either way, its no reason to get snotty. Just state your position so the OP can get the input he's looking for. You did point out something I didnt really address though, that the Y-pipe most definitely gets wet, and even though the stock one is just steel, any opportunity to use a better product should not be passed up.
Click to expand...

With what msds was and still offering, its very common. I don't know anyone around my parts of town that have not seen rust start on there headers. I do agree with a well specialized coating, rust can be non existent. But what was offered at the time was only a wish of what we believed was what we were paying for.

As you well pointed out the front header of mine was the most rusted of them all. The flange area was the initial culprit...and the spreading occurred. Now with all the money spent on coating and hoping it never occurs and etc etc. Stainless steel headers would remove the concerns forever.

just my 2 cents.
 
Good stuff, and mostly on par with what I was thinking. Now I just need to talk the wifey into why I need to spend money on a car I never drive! :)
Erick --
 
Not trying to resurrect a dead thread, but, those RaceBits headers and Y-Pipe are the best looking ones I've seen - for any car. Really stellar work.

Makes me want to buy another SVT so I can do a 3L turbo'd set up on one, and use the RaceBits exhaust parts on a N/A car. Decisions... another CSVT or remain married...
 
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