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Simple clarification of ideal 3.0L build.

Well no time for me because I'm willing to drop the money on the NPG LIM as I think it's worth it.

EDIT: Although looking at it I'm not sure if it retains the secondaries, so maybe I'll just port with some Bugzuki plates, still I'd rather spend time than money if possible. I was willing to spend the money on the NPG LIM and then recoup some losses on the sale of my SVT LIM, but meh, I'd rather spend a while porting and retain stock everything than lose my secondaries.
 
aboythatskates said:
hahaha. the closest dyno shop to me was 7 hrs. guess how i got there? i freakin drove. guess how i fixed all the issues on it when i just did the swap? i freakin drove. did it drive? yes. did i like how? no. ALL SWAPS REQUIRE A TUNE. if you dont get one because "its not needed right away" thats the biggest bs iv heard.lol. because a stock tune is for a stock motor. get it???
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Yes you can drive. And like you said, it runs but does it run like how it should? No. Not even close. Would I want to drive an untuned 3.0L that far? No. I would have most likely towed it there on a trailer. With a split port, you aren't changing out the intake manifold, injectors, throttle body etc....those are all stock. Basically all you are doing is increasing the displacement. It, for the most part, is a stock engine. Yes you get good gains from a tune and it is recommened. With a full 3.0L you almost need a tune right away, manifold change, injector change, IMRC delete, erg delete. I know with my old one, it didn't pull as hard on the low end because it was still set up for a split port when it had a full 3.0L in there. Once you got past the 3.5K mark, it would pull like a freight train. A 3.0L is not going to have what it should when it still thinks it has an IMRC on it, you are running larger injectors than what it thinks it has etc.
 
OK OK OK. No one is debating whether a tune is needed or ideal, I think that it's safe to say a tune is ideal for both. I think the main fact that people are trying to state about a port-matched vs a full 3.0L is that with a full 3.0L there are more variables that make problems more complicated if/when they arise. I don't think anyone's saying you can't do a full 3.0L swap and have no problems or do a port-matched swap and have tons of problems, all we're saying is that a port-matched swap retains more of the factory parts and placement of equipment which makes living with the car more ideal. Power made, necessity of a tune, comparison to a 2.5L and several other factors are all debatable but the one truth that remains is that a port-matched 3.0L is closer to factory specifications and thus makes it the easier swap to live with.
 
elraido said:
Yes you can drive. And like you said, it runs but does it run like how it should? No. Not even close. Would I want to drive an untuned 3.0L that far? No. I would have most likely towed it there on a trailer. With a split port, you aren't changing out the intake manifold, injectors, throttle body etc....those are all stock. Basically all you are doing is increasing the displacement. It, for the most part, is a stock engine. Yes you get good gains from a tune and it is recommened. With a full 3.0L you almost need a tune right away, manifold change, injector change, IMRC delete, erg delete. I know with my old one, it didn't pull as hard on the low end because it was still set up for a split port when it had a full 3.0L in there. Once you got past the 3.5K mark, it would pull like a freight train. A 3.0L is not going to have what it should when it still thinks it has an IMRC on it, you are running larger injectors than what it thinks it has etc.
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making an oval port engine a split port, and also keeping the injectors off a smaller displacement engine is halfassing. and no matter which way you go without a tune your car will not drive like suppose to... get that through your head. because yes a split port might be better without. but why would you be going better without a tune, if you are still going to go and get a tune?

thats like puting on slicks to go to the drag strip, but changing them to better tires (non slicks) when you get there to race. it makes no sence. (might have been not a very good example).
in other words...
with an engine swap you are going for max hp,or max performance, or something simlilar. not drivability when halfassing a project.


ur building a car to drive/race/perform, not getting you to the dyno shop. lol
 
aboythatskates said:
with an engine swap you are going for max hp,or max performance, or something simlilar. not drivability when halfassing a project.
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Maybe if it's not your daily or you have an endless budget. But if you have limited funds and need to maintain drive-ability on your only car then you would probably want to do things that won't unnecessarily compromise those two things.

Full 3.0L = more things that can go wrong, same power as an untuned port-matched 3.0L
Port-matched = closest thing to stock and power will be similar to an untuned full 3.0L, only with this one more of your factory engine parts remain making a tune less necessary, necessary but to a lesser degree. I don't think that's debatable. If you change the cams, intake system (removal of secondaries, etc.,), injectors, other timing components, it is running less efficiently than it would with all these things unchanged.
 
dairdevyld said:
Maybe if it's not your daily or you have an endless budget. But if you have limited funds and need to maintain drive-ability on your only car then you would probably want to do things that won't unnecessarily compromise those two things.

Full 3.0L = more things that can go wrong, same power as an untuned port-matched 3.0L
Port-matched = closest thing to stock and power will be similar to an untuned full 3.0L, only with this one more of your factory engine parts remain making a tune less necessary, necessary but to a lesser degree. I don't think that's debatable. If you change the cams, intake system (removal of secondaries, etc.,), injectors, other timing components, it is running less efficiently than it would with all these things unchanged.
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more things cannot go wrong. there is nothing to go wrong. read the posts about what needs to be done for a full 3l
port match is closest thing to matched. and YOU STILL NEED A DAMN TUNE.

let me make this clear...if you are halfassing an engine swap and not getting a tune...then the split port 3L is for you.:) happy?

also if you arnt changing any of those components then you have problems...and u need to stick with the 2.5 because thats what they are ment for.
 
aboythatskates said:
more things cannot go wrong. there is nothing to go wrong. read the posts about what needs to be done for a full 3l
port match is closest thing to matched. and YOU STILL NEED A DAMN TUNE.
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Have you worked on a car ever? lol lots of things can/will go wrong, it happens, but less of it can/will with a port-matched as this is the closest to the factory setup of the car.

aboythatskates said:
let me make this clear...if you are halfassing an engine swap and not getting a tune...then the split port 3L is for you.:) happy?
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It's not half-assing to do a swap without a tune. It's half-assing to do a swap and say that your engine is running at it's peak efficiency without a tune.

aboythatskates said:
also if you arnt changing any of those components then you have problems...and u need to stick with the 2.5 because thats what they are ment for.
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Wait what? I thought there is nothing to go wrong? What's a 2.5 liter for that a 3.0 liter isn't for. Going from A to B? yeah Going from A to B faster? to lesser degree, but yes Going from A to B without breaking down? Yep that too
 
dairdevyld said:
Have you worked on a car ever? lol lots of things can/will go wrong, it happens, but less of it can/will with a port-matched as this is the closest to the factory setup of the car.
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with the full 3L you dont have to take any parts off of the engine except the timing cover. you dont have to grind parts possibly leaving metal shavings behind. id say a full 3.0L is as close to a "factory" like setup you can get. the only place i can see that might have a problem is if the connections in the wiring harness were not done well.

that being said, I personally did a full 3.0L swap. BUUUUT if i just wanted to do a quick and dirty 3.0L swap I'd probably do the port match just so i wouldnt have to mess with the wiring harness.
 
more things cannot go wrong. there is nothing to go wrong. read the posts about what needs to be done for a full 3l
port match is closest thing to matched. and YOU STILL NEED A DAMN TUNE.

let me make this clear...if you are halfassing an engine swap and not getting a tune...then the split port 3L is for you.:) happy?

also if you arnt changing any of those components then you have problems...and u need to stick with the 2.5 because thats what they are ment for.
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Shout much?

Anyone that lives in an emissions inspection state needs to go port matched. Anyone that wants to have a shop work on their car (even just occasionally) is better off port matched.

So if you are going all out for performance, maybe a full 3L is the way to go. In any other case ported is the way to go. If you are just keeping your car on the road, yes you can do it without a tune. Going for performance - ported 3l with svt goodies is still a pretty good option.

And in keeping with the tone of your posts: My tuned ported 3l beats your numbers :P
 
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aboythatskates said:
with an engine swap you are going for max hp,or max performance, or something simlilar. not drivability when halfassing a project.
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You simply don't get it. One reason why people do an engine swap in these things is because it is vastly cheaper to do a 3.0L than rebuilt their old 2.5 or put in another 2.5. Not everyone is looking for max hp/performance. One reason why I sold my old 3.0L was because of the drivability of it. Not because I couldn't handle it, but because the wife didn't like to ride in it. It physically made her motion sick. I loved the car....and it was a full 3.0L. I personally think the 3.0L is the better build. But I also know from being on here long enough, that most of the time a portmatched swap is easier.
 
i have nothing against port matched except halfassing a project. if you need a stock look or have svt parts, or halfassing and not getting a tune, then yes a portmatched is your only option. if you want a portmatched and you do everything correctly, larger injectors, tune, ect.

as i said before, if you have an svt it might be easier. having a cougar, i was not going to waste time to locate svt parts, then having to install them, then id still have to locate larger split port injectors. even with #19s you need larger so that is half assing.

1. a portmatch is a very good option, if you are doing it right.
2. if you arnt. like not getting a tune, or some other crap like that, then port match is your only option.
2. if you have a car other then an csvt, then the easiest is a full without having to source parts. but like u said, if u do have an csvt, a portmatched might be easier. its even easier to half ass it though.

if i build a car, i built it right. that is my argument.

while im for both types of swaps. im not for halfassing. which is exactly what half of you do apparently, which is also none of my business. wasting 2 grand for the best is better then wasting 2 grand for slightly more hp and a car that doesnt run correctly
 
aboythatskates said:
i have nothing against port matched except halfassing a project. if you need a stock look or have svt parts, or halfassing and not getting a tune, then yes a portmatched is your only option. if you want a portmatched and you do everything correctly, larger injectors, tune, ect.

as i said before, if you have an svt it might be easier. having a cougar, i was not going to waste time to locate svt parts, then having to install them, then id still have to locate larger split port injectors. even with #19s you need larger so that is half assing.

1. a portmatch is a very good option, if you are doing it right.
2. if you arnt. like not getting a tune, or some other crap like that, then port match is your only option.
2. if you have a car other then an csvt, then the easiest is a full without having to source parts. but like u said, if u do have an csvt, a portmatched might be easier. its even easier to half ass it though.

if i build a car, i built it right. that is my argument.

while im for both types of swaps. im not for halfassing. which is exactly what half of you do apparently, which is also none of my business. wasting 2 grand for the best is better then wasting 2 grand for slightly more hp and a car that doesnt run correctly
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Explain to us why a port match is "halfassing it".
 
I will just say that I have done 2 port matched swaps and a full 3L swap and the full 3L for sure pulled harder.

On another note, its pretty simple guys. A full 3L is for someone that is looking for performance and doesnt mind spending a little extra money and time. A split port is for someone that just needs the car back on the road in stock form without costing too much. The whole one is better than the other is just stupid, each swap has its benefits and drawbacks. The thing of needing a tune on a split port isnt right, yes its ideal but most people that have to replace an engine in their $3k car dont want to spend another $500 on a tune, while some of us have more $ in parts than the car is worth.
 
FastFord said:
I will just say that I have done 2 port matched swaps and a full 3L swap and the full 3L for sure pulled harder.

On another note, its pretty simple guys. A full 3L is for someone that is looking for performance and doesnt mind spending a little extra money and time. A split port is for someone that just needs the car back on the road in stock form without costing too much. The whole one is better than the other is just stupid, each swap has its benefits and drawbacks. The thing of needing a tune on a split port isnt right, yes its ideal but most people that have to replace an engine in their $3k car dont want to spend another $500 on a tune, while some of us have more $ in parts than the car is worth.
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Freaking thank you.
 
elraido said:
Freaking thank you.
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+1

I've been driving my "half-assed" un-tuned 3L hybrid (double half-assed?) swap since 2005 for 58k miles now. Why? Because I honestly don't give a enough of crap to swap or tune for maximum gains. My original engine blew back in the day when it was my only vehicle, and a 3L hybrid was the quickest and easiest route at the time. At the end of the day, even if I tune or swap for another 3L setup, it's still slower than my stock daily driver.

I will tune eventually for more power, but my SVT is far from "half-assed" just because of a tune.
 
Technically any mods made without a tune afterwords could be considered "half-assed". So I think applying that philosophy to an engine swap is foolish. I think the majority of people making changes to their cars, do what they can and try to get the most bang for their bang while still preserving drive-ability. For the large majority of us that would make a full 3.0L a lot harder than a port-matched swap, especially taking into account the parts nautilusperformance.com and bugzuki have come up with.
 
a port matched isnt half assed. the way most of you do it is.
while you think your car is driving "good" without a tune, its actually not. so if ur cheep and dont give about an engine running correctly, get portmatched, because it will run better then a full 3l without a tune. and you can also tune for milage, it doesnt have to be performace,
 
aboythatskates said:
a port matched isnt half assed. the way most of you do it is.
while you think your car is driving "good" without a tune, its actually not. so if ur cheep and dont give about an engine running correctly, get portmatched, because it will run better then a full 3l without a tune. and you can also tune for milage, it doesnt have to be performace,
Click to expand...

But why spend at least $500 on a tune for an engine that costs less than $500 just to have it running "good" in a $3k car?

My whole problem with the port match setup is your porting out heads designed to flow with oval ports and slapping completely different intake runners on, which has to hurt the air flow into the heads. So again to me that setup isnt "ideal", but does it work and is it the easier cheaper way to go? YES

The full 3L can be half assed too, rigging up a throttle bracket, mounting the coil pack, my oil cap doesnt fit under the hood, running all new vac lines, EGR. Most people rig all this stuff together making it sort of half assed and not stock looking.

I guess I should also add that one of the port matched swaps I did has complete bolt ons, headers, Y, cat delete, 2.5" catback, CAI and no tune. That car runs no different than the stock 2.5 SVT I was in the other day... If we were talking about cars that were worth more than $5k max, the whole tuning thing would be a different story.
 
people who are still modding these cars arent doing it because it makes sense financially, they're doing it bc they want to. so if it doesnt make sense to tune a 3k dollar car for 500 dollars how does it make sense to spend 1000 on a diff, or 2500 on a turbo, 800 on suspension?
, 1) tunes can be had for much cheaper if you look around, 2) run what makes you feel good. they both have positives and negatives, both make similar power after the ecu is tuned and all things considered in the end they'll end up costing you the same in time and money.
anyone that says that they've gone through all the work of porting and prepping a 3L without ANY care for performance is straight up not being honest, just get the damn thing tuned and stop telling yourself your untuned ported/hybrid/split port/full 3L is running is good as it should be.
 
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