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Not the Typical 3L Build...Advice Welcome!

T

TennTechMan

CEG'er
Joined
Dec 18, 2008
Messages
198
Location
Maryville, TN
I've done a few 3L port-matched swaps in Contours and a Cougar. My latest 3L swap project will be a bit different though. I intend to put a 3L into a 5-door Geo Metro. This car will ultimately be a 24hrs of Lemons X-class race car. For those that don't know about Lemons, you should look it up. You're missing out.

The general plan is to put a 3L SVT Contour drivetrain in the back of the Geo.

Reference links:

About the car builders:
http://www.facebook.com/KnoxvegasLowballers

The Geo:
http://www.facebook.com/notes/knoxvegas-lowballers/chapter-one-the-geo/353500974740946

The CSVT:
http://www.facebook.com/notes/knoxvegas-lowballers/chapter-two-the-donor/368770396547337
http://s184.beta.photobucket.com/user/AaronDC8402/library/Lemons


The donor CSVT has a partially swapped 3L in it already. I haven't gotten the motor pulled out to inspect yet, but that will be happening soon. So far, I know it is a split port 3L block and heads. Not sure if they're all this way, but it was apparently designed to run a water pump pulley off the front of the engine because there isn't a pulley on the end of the cam shaft. In fact, the motor has the CSVT cams swapped into this motor. How did they deal with the fact that the shaft is too long, and has a useless pulley on the end of it? It was simply cut off.

I'm not sure at what point the previous owner realized there was no water pump, but I'd like to have been there to help them figure it out.

The motor has an extrude-honed UIM, larger MAF, 24lb injectors, FR wires, and a few other little go-fast goodies. All of the other CSVT stuff is attached to the motor (except the water pump).


Now that you know some of what I've got, on to the motor build discussion.


Lemons racing is done on road courses. First and foremost, we want this engine to be reliable for roadracing. Oil starving in a corner is not an option. I've seen lots of discussion about oiling issues over the years. I'm looking for lots of opinions and suggestions on that topic as I move through this build. If there's an end-all-be-all thread on the topic already, help me out.

One of the governing premises of Lemons racing is that you have to build your car for a bottom-line cost of $500, not including safety equipment. So, we are going to be very cost conscious with this build.

I also have, in my possession, a 2.5L CSVT motor with a spun rod bearing and a locked up 2.5L from a Cougar. Any parts that I can pull from those motors can be used as part of this engine build.


At this early stage, I'm thinking I will use the 3L bottom end that's in the Contour, and put the CSVT heads off the "spun rod bearing" motor to build a hybrid. I'd greatly prefer to do a fresh port-match or full swap, but I've got to look at the cheaper route first. Once I get the current motor pulled and disassembled, I'll know more about my options.



In conclusion, there's not much to discuss now other than what I can do to ensure this motor will survive roadracing. As I start into the build process, the questions will begin to flow.


Thanks in advance!
 
Was there a point in time when it was common to swap the split port 3L into the CSVT's? Were they all hybrid builds to deal with the non-existent water pump pulley? Or was there some other common way of dealing with the water pump?

Electric water pump is all I can think of.
 
No it was always detoured because of the lack of cam driven water pump. I believe the someone that attempted the swap didn't know what they were doing.

The Hybrid will be your cheapest route with what you have, but i still wouldn't want to touch any of that hack job. Can you sell stuff from the car and still be in budget?
 
We can sell off parts to "add" money to the budget, so getting another engine is still a possibility. But, I'd prefer to not spend it if we don't need to. I think as long as I go through the engine and all the measurements check out, we might use it.
 
Well if it i was in your shoes, i would sell off the 24lb injectors, the extrude honed manifold (assuming its honed additional time, all svt contours UIM's are extrude honed) and scrap the top half of that crap 3L, heads, cams timing, valvecovers. and the other goodies might sell decently as well. Check the specs on the 3L's equipment, if it passes spend some of the return on new wiring harness's , fresh gaskets and maybe rod bearings and put the 2.5L's timing and intake manifolds and injectors and heads, and of course the water pump... (don't forget to block off oil gallery for hybrid )on the lemons car.

That's probably your best reliable option with what you have. Run lots of oil too lol
 
The motor is now out of the car, and on an engine stand. I should have it disassembled in the next few days to see what's on the inside. We were surprised to find an aluminum flywheel, but it looks like a stock clutch assembly.
 
Pulled the heads and oil pan tonight.

The car sat for some amount of time with the hood off and no spark plugs, so the cylinders were full of water. That was expected. It looks like it's sat like that longer than I thought though. The cylinder walls were nasty. So corroded that I couldn't even turn the motor over.

The cams were pretty scored up on the journal surfaces, so I think they're trash.

And then there was the oil pickup. It was full of grey silicone. That was the point at which I decided it's time to start looking for a new motor.

In addition, there is a crack on the timing cover that was fixed with JB weld. One welded spot on the oil pan.



So, with this being a Lemons car, we need to get a motor for cheap. I'd prefer it be a 3L since this is a race car after all. Where are you guys finding good deals on 3L's? Any specific suggestions for how to get this thing going?
 
Told yah.

Sell off the extras, you'll come out really well. Depending on the condition and brand of that flywheel you probably can get around $200 for it or more. Cheap and 3L usually ends badly. Ideally look for a sub 60k '01+ Your local LKQ has a '04-05 Taurus for $470 if the mileage is right you might want to jump on that...

http://www.lkqcorp.com/search-inventory.aspx
 
I saw that at LKQ. Normally, that would be the easy option. For Lemons racing though, that's $30 away from being an entire car. Not sure that's going to cut it.

Anyone know what the scrap yards are paying for junk 3L's? I guess that cost could come off of the LKQ price for budgeting purposes.
 
During my last (and final) engine swap, I got over $100 for all of the scrap metal from the previous engine. There are plenty of these engines out there so sourcing another one shouldn't be a problem. However, should you decide to keep that 3L bottom end that you have, I would suggest using the Cougar heads instead as they have the oil return hole that the SVT heads do not, hence oil will return to the sump faster to avoid any starvation problems. Your locked up CSVT engine could provide the replacement timing cover, water pump housing, and camshaft with pulley. Between those 3 engines, you should be able to make one hell of a lemons race car!
 
I'm starting to get a game plan together for how to move forward with the engine. The LKQ option is just too expensive with what other options are available. At the local you-pull-it yards, I can get motors for $120 to $130. With the ability to sell bad motors to a metal scrapper for nearly what they cost at the junk yard, I'm planning to pull a few of them, and scrap out the bad ones. Even before pulling them out of the yard, I can do a compression check and use a bore scope to see the cylinder walls.

This will definitely take more time, but Lemons isn't about doing things the easy way. It's about doing things the cheap way. Even when it doesn't make sense.

The only question now, is what do I get. If I can find a 04/05 3.0L, I would use the whole long block. I think port match is probably best for our use.

Is there any year motor I could pick that would be better as a hybrid build over a port match? The 00-03's had smaller cams, right? Did the heads also flow less? Smaller valves?
 
While I'm a fan of the port matched, I don't understand why you think that would be better than a full 3L in your application. What's your logic?
 
A port match setup should make a little more power in the top end, right? We don't care anything about low rpm drivability or torque for this application.

Plus, I've done the port match thing a few times now, and never done a full swap.
 
If your nnot gooing to do a hybrid, do full 3l, a portmatch makes the least amount of power of the three options
 
TennTechMan said:
A port match setup should make a little more power in the top end, right? We don't care anything about low rpm drivability or torque for this application.

Plus, I've done the port match thing a few times now, and never done a full swap.
Click to expand...

I think the consensus is that the 3L intake flows more which would allow you to make more power in the higher RPM range. The IMRC/split port is basically to give you better low rpm response. Up high you want as much flow as possible. Maybe the cam profiles on the 3l aren't the best for top end power?
 
My statement is based off what I remember being the forum concensus a few years ago. I thought the SVT intake manifold flowed better up top, and that the 3L intake was better for lower rpm torque. I might not be remembering correctly though.


As for the difference between the cams, I've looked into that once before.
http://www.contour.org/ceg-vb/showt...s-vs.-3.0L-Cams-The-Real-Difference&highlight=


I'm still convinced the SVT cams are better than 3L cams for top end hp. I would have thought that the intakes were designed for their cams respectively. Maybe not.
 
I would guess this has been covered somewhere else, but are there many differences between any of the DOHC 3L's? I'm assuming an Escape motor won't be an option since they're not really showing up in the you-pull-it yards yet. So, I'm pretty well restricted to Taurus/Sable motors. Is there a break point where getting a certain motor, I'd be better off doing a hybrid than a full swap?
 
u could just get the cam regrinds for a full 3L. its about a 20hp and 20tw increase and the top end too.

theres a thread lerking somewhere here
 
TennTechMan said:
My statement is based off what I remember being the forum concensus a few years ago. I thought the SVT intake manifold flowed better up top, and that the 3L intake was better for lower rpm torque. I might not be remembering correctly though.


As for the difference between the cams, I've looked into that once before.
http://www.contour.org/ceg-vb/showt...s-vs.-3.0L-Cams-The-Real-Difference&highlight=


I'm still convinced the SVT cams are better than 3L cams for top end hp. I would have thought that the intakes were designed for their cams respectively. Maybe not.
Click to expand...

Just clicked through the link - awesome info. Rara seems to back your position on the intakes - but I have to disagree - 3l oval port intake on oval port heads has to flow better, theres just more area and less distrubance of the flow. And I'm not saying that because I have a full 3l - I actually have a ported 3l that is completely torn down in my garage right now to be rebuilt with forged components.
 
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