Modded 3L Horsepower estimate?

[AGrayson84]

EDIT: I have now learned that the 2004 Taurus 3.0 only makes 200 horsepower-- not the 240 hp I (for some reason) originally thought when I made the below post

Hi everyone, I was curious as to roughly what crank and/or front-wheel horsepower you all think I might produce when I add headers, larger MAF, and a retune here later this year.

I currently have a full 3 liter out of a 2004 Taurus. The engine probably has around 90k miles on it and feels pretty stout. Here is a list of current mods:

-2004 Taurus 3L
-K&N air filter (stock intake housing)
-Borla cat-back
-Custom Y-pipe (I had a universal Y-pipe installed, pushed further back than the normal cat-back/y-pipe joint.... so there is no gnarly bend coming off the rear exhaust manifold and pre-cat [should help with flow])
-High flow 3rd catalytic converter

For reference, here is the Y-pipe I am using:

I plan on adding the following:

-Coated MSDS headers (keep in mind, this eliminates the pre-cats and any horsepower they might be robbing)
-Larger MAF
-Custom dyno tune

Based on all of the above, what kind of power should I expect out of everything once I have a good tune? Maybe around 280 crank horsepower or so?

 

[BAD SVT]

Unfortunately no. Larger MAFs do not do much by way of adding power. And from your post, i don't think a true dual exhaust setup is in your plans. So i would say at most you should be around 220hp crank. Adding power the N/A way takes a lot. I'd suggest (1) Larger optimized throttlebody from a mustang. (2) True cold air intake system. (3) True dual exhaust system. (4) Sho-shop worked Lower Intake Manifold. Look up ceg member demonsvt to see all he did to his 3L to squeeze all the power out of it, and run a 13.2 at the track in the quarter mile.

 

[AGrayson84]

Haha say what???? The engine make 240 crank hp from the factory. Might be down to around 230 now with the mileage, but has fresh spark plugs and runs like a champ. There's no way this thing is making less than 240 hp with the few current mods. Larger MAF won't generally give you a 10 horsepower gain or anything on a smaller engine like this, but every little bit helps. I'd never put a true dual exhaust on any car, especially a V6. Without boost, it doesn't need that kind of flow, and it sounds like crap to me. Even on a my twin turbo LS2 I run an X-pipe and that's making over 700 horsepower. A nicely flowing y-pipe with a 2.5" split cat-back on an N/A 3L is just fine.

 

[Beans]

210whp at the most.

 

[BAD SVT]

A stock svt contour comes with 200hp crank. Replacing it with a 3L adds about 20 or more depending on your mods & tune. I still say you'll be around 190whp which should put you in the 220-230hp crank range.

 

[BAD SVT]

Whether i end up being right or wrong, i don't think you'll net around 280 crank. Ambitious yes. But i'd try modding it some more to get to that power goal.

 

[AGrayson84]

210whp at the most.

I think you're getting closer. With roughly 18% drivetrain loss, 210 whp would equate to around 268.5 crank horsepower.

A stock svt contour comes with 200hp crank. Replacing it with a 3L adds about 20 or more depending on your mods & tune. I still say you'll be around 190whp which should but you in the 220-230hp crank range.

Please don't take this the wrong way, because I really do appreciate your feedback-- but that doesn't make any sense. An engine does not lose crank horsepower when putting it in a different transmission and drive-line. The horsepower at the wheels will vary, due to variances in the energy required to rotate different drive-lines (clutch/flywheel, MTX-75 transmission, and half-shafts, in this situation) and the wheels. But again, the amount of power at the crank does not get reduced when nothing about the internals of the engine have changed.

I should also technically have a little more front-wheel-horsepower than a 2004 Taurus with this same engine, because a manual transmission generally has less drivetrain loss than an automatic transmission.

 

[elraido]

A true dual set up REALLY does help these engines. I thought Steeda did a back to back dyno on a car and it was something like 15-20 whp. My old car was dynoed at 225 whp. That is around 260 at the crank....and that had basically everything you can throw on it.

 

[AGrayson84]

Whether i end up being right or wrong, i don't think you'll net around 280 crank. Ambitious yes. But i'd try modding it some more to get to that power goal.

Well here are my thoughts on horsepower estimates, per mod:

3L Engine: 230 horsepower (we'll reduce 10 crank horsepower for the 90,000 miles on it)
Borla cat-back: 8 horsepower
K&N filter: 3 horsepower
High-flow 3rd cat: 4 horsepower
Larger, less restrictive Y-pipe: 4 horsepower
Larger MAF: 3 horsepower (with tune)
Headers: 15 horsepower

^That's 267 crank horsepower right there, roughly. Now, a tune will help bring these components to life. With the engine breathing in and out better, you can had more fuel and timing to the tune. More fuel and timing creates more horsepower over the OEM tune. I would expect an additional 15 horsepower, total, out of a dyno tune with those above components. Tuning for the headers will provide the biggest gains over the rest of the components listed, but you can squeeze out an extra few more horsepower out of that list of parts, excluding the headers, with a good tune. So 267 crank horsepower without a tune, and then another 15 horsepower with a tune should be right around 282 crank horsepower. Does that make more sense to everyone?

 

[AGrayson84]

A true dual set up REALLY does help these engines. I thought Steeda did a back to back dyno on a car and it was something like 15-20 whp. My old car was dynoed at 225 whp. That is around 260 at the crank....and that had basically everything you can throw on it.

Was that 225 whp with a tune? Would you mind listing the mods you had? I would definitely like to do a side-by-side comparison of your mods to see where I'm getting 20 more horsepower in my head from your numbers.

The only other things I can really do while keeping the engine N/A for now is a full intake, and maybe port the throttle body. Not a lot to be had out of that, and I didn't care for how much louder my engine bay on my '92 SHO was when I added the Pro-M MAF and intake setup. That open filter just made too much noise.

Also, what was the 15-20 horsepower gain on the true duals compared to? A stock cat-back? Anyone know how much horsepower to expect out of a Borla cat-back versus stock?


Thanks guys!

 

[elraido]

Well here are my thoughts on horsepower estimates, per mod:

3L Engine: 230 horsepower (we'll reduce 10 crank horsepower for the 90,000 miles on it)
Borla cat-back: 8 horsepower
K&N filter: 3 horsepower
High-flow 3rd cat: 4 horsepower
Larger, less restrictive Y-pipe: 4 horsepower
Larger MAF: 3 horsepower (with tune)
Headers: 15 horsepower

^That's 267 crank horsepower right there, roughly. Now, a tune will help bring these components to life. With the engine breathing in and out better, you can had more fuel and timing to the tune. More fuel and timing creates more horsepower over the OEM tune. I would expect an additional 15 horsepower, total, out of a dyno tune with those above components. Tuning for the headers will provide the biggest gains over the rest of the components listed, but you can squeeze out an extra few more horsepower out of that list of parts, excluding the headers, with a good tune. So 267 crank horsepower without a tune, and then another 15 horsepower with a tune should be right around 282 crank horsepower. Does that make more sense to everyone?

You are over estimating. Cut all those numbers in half for the most part. Like I said, the best you basically can do with your engine and those mods is about 210-220 to the wheels. It has been proven again and again and again on this site.
Here is a listing of the car when it was for sale not to long ago by someone else. I want to say it also had a magnaflow (or was it borla?) catback.
http://www.contour.org/ceg-vb/showthread.php?80180-1999-Contour-SVT-3L-St220&highlight=pudmobile

 

[BAD SVT]

Please don't take this the wrong way, because I really do appreciate your feedback-- but that doesn't make any sense. An engine does not lose crank horsepower when putting it in a different transmission and drive-line. The horsepower at the wheels will vary, due to variances in the energy required to rotate different drive-lines (clutch/flywheel, MTX-75 transmission, and half-shafts, in this situation) and the wheels. But again, the amount of power at the crank does not get reduced when nothing about the internals of the engine have changed.

I should also technically have a little more front-wheel-horsepower than a 2004 Taurus with this same engine, because a manual transmission generally has less drivetrain loss than an automatic transmission.

U're not reading my post right. Instead of explaining, read it again. You'll see where u misread.

 

[AGrayson84]

I can maybe agree with the Borla cat-back possibly being closer to half (4 horsepower), but the MSDS y-pipe is a 4 fwhp horsepower gain and it still has a gnarly bend in it. My new Y-pipe setup has no crazy bends, and is a larger diameter Y (even more flow). So 4 crank horsepower on my Y-pipe should be practical. Headers are a 10-20 horsepower gain, so not sure how 7-8 horsepower should be expected from that. High flow cats will give you 10 horsepower on most larger displacement engines, but should be able to see 4 horsepower all day long on this car. Not trying to argue with anyone, because I'm not as familiar with these cars as most, but I've modded and had several cars dyno tuned in the past and feel like I have a really decent, conservative idea of what to expect from most bolt-on performance parts on various engines.

Do most people that see 210-220 fwhp have a good dyno tune?? A good tune will make all the difference in the world. A "canned" to will help with gains, but a dyno tune is the only true way to maximize potential of the engine. A canned tune is just a guess that the parameters should do a good job. A dyno tune involves several runs and then corrections to maximize horsepower. You can safely see that more fueling and timing can be added, where a canned tune has to be more conservative. Just my $.02.

 

[AGrayson84]

U're not reading my post right. Instead of explaining, read it again. You'll see where u misread.

"A stock svt contour comes with 200hp crank. Replacing it with a 3L adds about 20 or more depending on your mods & tune. I still say you'll be around 190whp which should but you in the 220-230hp crank range."

I've re-read it and I'm not seeing what I've mis-read. You're saying that a stock Contour comes with 200 hp. You then say a 3L would add 20+ horsepower. That would give me a starting point of 220 horsepower. I have a 240 horsepower engine (probably making around 230 horsepower with the current mileage). How would that engine only give me a starting point of 220 horsepower??

Your last statement says I will likely be in the 220-230 crank horsepower range. I'm baffled. An engine that makes probably 230 horsepower as it sits, combined with headers, full exhaust, other minor mods, and a dyno tune would only net me less horsepower than the engine makes stock?? I'm lost at what point you're trying to prove lol.

 

[BAD SVT]

I can maybe agree with the Borla cat-back possibly being closer to half (4 horsepower), but the MSDS y-pipe is a 4 fwhp horsepower gain and it still has a gnarly bend in it. My new Y-pipe setup has no crazy bends, and is a larger diameter Y (even more flow). So 4 crank horsepower on my Y-pipe should be practical. Headers are a 10-20 horsepower gain, so not sure how 7-8 horsepower should be expected from that. High flow cats will give you 10 horsepower on most larger displacement engines, but should be able to see 4 horsepower all day long on this car. Not trying to argue with anyone, because I'm not as familiar with these cars as most, but I've modded and had several cars dyno tuned in the past and feel like I have a really decent, conservative idea of what to expect from most bolt-on performance parts on various engines.

Do most people that see 210-220 fwhp have a good dyno tune?? A good tune will make all the difference in the world. A "canned" to will help with gains, but a dyno tune is the only true way to maximize potential of the engine. A canned tune is just a guess that the parameters should do a good job. A dyno tune involves several runs and then corrections to maximize horsepower. You can safely see that more fueling and timing can be added, where a canned tune has to be more conservative. Just my $.02.

Seems my percentage drivetrain loss calculation is slightly less than yours. I generally use 15% on cars in the lower hp range. You're right, a dyno tune is the better way to go certainly. You seem fairly confident, you can achieve those numbers. I say go for it.

 

[BAD SVT]

Please don't take this the wrong way, because I really do appreciate your feedback-- but that doesn't make any sense. An engine does not lose crank horsepower when putting it in a different transmission and drive-line. The horsepower at the wheels will vary, due to variances in the energy required to rotate different drive-lines (clutch/flywheel, MTX-75 transmission, and half-shafts, in this situation) and the wheels. But again, the amount of power at the crank does not get reduced when nothing about the internals of the engine have changed.

I should also technically have a little more front-wheel-horsepower than a 2004 Taurus with this same engine, because a manual transmission generally has less drivetrain loss than an automatic transmission.

Where you got it wrong is that i didn't say an engine loses hp. Of course that'd make no sense. I'm not aware 3Ls come with 240hp. They're all 200hp engines that when put in a contour goes up. Simple. That's why i said add 20-30horses depending on mods, & go from there. Am i underestimating? A bit perhaps. But i assure you that you won't come near the 280crank hp you're aiming for. Which is about 240+whp by the way. Just to put it in perspective...

 

[jaged]

youre going to have anywhere from 200-215 hp depending on how the dyno reads. all of my motors have been in that range with a full load of mods. there isnt really anything to argue

 

[blu_fuz]

youre going to have anywhere from 200-215 hp depending on how the dyno reads. all of my motors have been in that range with a full load of mods. there isnt really anything to argue

Correct, nothing to argue.

I've seen cars with similar mods with tune only make 190hp/tq and up to 220'shp/tq. Too many variables to be right on but this is the range to expect, nothing more, and never anything less!

 

[B3NN3TT]

The engine make 240 crank hp from the factory. Might be down to around 230 now with the mileage, but has fresh spark plugs and runs like a champ. There's no way this thing is making less than 240 hp with the few current mods.

I have a 240 horsepower engine (probably making around 230 horsepower with the current mileage). How would that engine only give me a starting point of 220 horsepower??

Where are these 240-hp stock 3.0's coming from, I wanna know. Ain't no such thing outside of a VVT-setup, and I KNOW you aren't using that.

Your 3.0 makes 200 CRANK horsepower from the factory. Period.

 

[AGrayson84]

Seems my percentage drivetrain loss calculation is slightly less than yours. I generally use 15% on cars in the lower hp range. You're right, a dyno tune is the better way to go certainly. You seem fairly confident, you can achieve those numbers. I say go for it.

Where you got it wrong is that i didn't say an engine loses hp. Of course that'd make no sense. I'm not aware 3Ls come with 240hp. They're all 200hp engines that when put in a contour goes up. Simple. That's why i said add 20-30horses depending on mods, & go from there. Am i underestimating? A bit perhaps. But i assure you that you won't come near the 280crank hp you're aiming for. Which is about 240+whp by the way. Just to put it in perspective...

Yeah the most accurate drivetrain loss figure is probably 17.5%, I was over-estimating it a tad. But 17.5% would make a 200 crank horsepower engine put down around 165 horsepower. The whole specific percentage of drivetrain loss isn't 100% accurate and doesn't hold in every scenario, but gives a pretty general idea on crank horsepower versus wheel horsepower when comparing stock power levels versus modified power levels.

Yep, the 2004 3.0 Taurus Duratec engines made 240 crank horsepower. Crank horsepower is not affected by the drivetrain, only the wheel horsepower is. Horsepower at the wheels in the only number of the two that fluctuates as you transfer the same engine between different cars. Only if you're changing cylinder heads, upper intake manifolds, etc does the crank horsepower change, but otherwise with a full 3.0 motor, if it makes 240 crank horsepower in a Taurus, it makes 240 crank horsepower in a Contour, Cougar, Lamborghini Diablo, and Geo Metro. Swapping an engine from an automatic transmission to a manual transmission results in [/U]higher[/U] wheel horsepower. So going from an automatic Taurus to a manual Contour should gain just a few fwhp. Again, crank horsepower remains the same.

And based on the crank horsepower of 280 and following the 17.5% drivetrain loss figure, it would only require 231 fwhp to achieve 280 at the crank. Again, the drivetrain loss percentage only holds so much water though, but if you use that figure that is the result you'll get.

By the way, just as an FYI you have the math slightly backwards. You can't take the whp estimate and multiply it by 1.18 or 1.175 to get the estimated crank horsepower. You have to take the estimated crank horsepower and multiply it by .82 (for 18% dt loss) or by .825 (for 17.5% dt loss). It makes a slight difference in your results, and the larger the numbers you're dealing with, the further off your calculation will be.