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Fuel pump/ignition?

M

m1lgram

CEG'er
Joined
Dec 30, 2005
Messages
60
Hello. I have a '99 CSVT that has starting issues. I had to walk to work on friday because the car refused to start in the morning. It was below freezing temperature during the night, but this hasn't been an issue before. When I arrived back home, the car started instantly.

2 Days prior, the car struggled to start at work in the afternoon, requiring about three, five second turns of the key to start. It was below freezing at this time as well.

The car ran fine yesterday (?).

Just now the car has failed to start again. Turns over fine, no ignition. I noticed that I only hear the fuel pump actuating about one out of three times that I insert and turn the key.

I've had the car from 96,000 miles to the present, 135,000, with no such problems. I've heard the model is famous for having a crap fuel pump. Are these typical signs of it dying?

Perhaps noteworthy: during this fuel cycle, I have added a Gumout additive for deposits and fuel injectors. It has never caused a problem before.

Thanks in advance for any help!

-Ryan
 
Yes, it could be the fuel pump. But change the fuel filter first and pour in a bottle of HEET or fuel stabilizer to see if that helps.

It could also be the IAT sensor as it appears to be temperature related. Of course, when the weather goes down, almost anything and everything gets affected. But most probably fuel pump as you mention that the pump only comes on once in three times.
 
Fuel pump/ignition cont...

Fuel pump/ignition cont...

Thanks, Tony. I neglected to mention that I did add a bottle of HEET on friday afternoon, when it did start. So it seems that water in the fuel isn't the problem. I changed the fuel filter about nine months ago, roughly 9,000 miles, so that likely isn't the issue, unless the part is faulty.

I thought it was strange that the combustion didn't hiccup, even when the fuel pump did indicate that it was functioning.

What do you know about the IAT sensor? What adjustments does it cause? Does it adjust for air density, and perhaps not enough oxygen is getting into the cumbustion chamber?

One more thing, the CEL has been on for about a month. I haven't an OBD tool to self-diagnose, and I haven't had the cash to check the code, but the car has been running normally up until this point. Actually, the CEL has been off and on since I've owned the car. Changed the sensor under the block (can't remember which one this is off the top of my head), and it didn't really make a difference. A fairly trustworthy mechanic said that CEL's generally aren't something to worry a lot about, unless the car noticably is acting different.

Again, thanks for any useful input you may have to offer.
-Ryan
 
"I thought it was strange that the combustion didn't hiccup, even when the fuel pump did indicate that it was functioning."

Worry about this later but sometimes just pushing the gas pedal all the way down might help if the engine is flooded.

"What do you know about the IAT sensor? What adjustments does it cause? Does it adjust for air density, and perhaps not enough oxygen is getting into the cumbustion chamber?"

Worry about this later but there was a post earlier on how to test it.
Post No. 12 in this thread.
http://www.contour.org/ceg-vb/showthread.php?t=6283&page=2&highlight=intake

"One more thing, the CEL has been on for about a month. I haven't an OBD tool to self-diagnose, and I haven't had the cash to check the code,"

This you worry about and should do right away. Drive to Autozone or Advance Auto and tell them your CEL is on. They do free code reading. Then post the exact code(s) here. Don't listen to their free advice and suggestions to buy sensors based on their diagnosis. If they do not do code reading anymore, they will lend you the code reader for you to do it yourself. The connector is under the dash by your left knee. Plug the scanner in, turn the key to on (not start), and then read the codes.

"but the car has been running normally up until this point. Actually, the CEL has been off and on since I've owned the car. Changed the sensor under the block (can't remember which one this is off the top of my head), and it didn't really make a difference."

Yep, big mistake there. Should not change sensors unless you know it is faulty.

"A fairly trustworthy mechanic said that CEL's generally aren't something to worry a lot about, unless the car noticably is acting different."

Well, the car is acting different now. Get the free code read, post here and we can go from there.
 
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Wow. Fast response. Thanks :)

Unless I can get it started, it looks like I'll have to have it towed, which sucks, but at least I'm not stranded away from home.

The sensor that was changed required changing, I forgot to mention that.

I'll get my hands on an OBD II asap and nab the codes.

Love/Hate this car.

Thanks!
 
Towing might be more expensive than buying a cheap code reader from Advance or Autozone. They run from $75 up (Actron 9125 code reader). Or you can rent from them. Check if they will give you a free loaner first.
 
Today, the fuel pump is making zero noise.

I've decided the easiest route at this point is to have the car towed (I have AAA, so it would be free) to the technical center at the high school where I teach. There is a certified ford mechanic that runs the program, and the labor is free, so hopefully they can find the problem.

So, if the fuel pump was actuating sporadically without sputtering when running, is the problem potentially an electrical one with the fuel pump, and not the pump itself? Just curious if this is similar to problems any of you have had.
 
m1lgram said:
.So, if the fuel pump was actuating sporadically without sputtering when running, is the problem potentially an electrical one with the fuel pump, and not the pump itself? Just curious if this is similar to problems any of you have had.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, the answer to your question is that it could be either or both. Actually, it could also be the connector at the pump. When you find the solution your issue, please post so that we can improve our database with solutions. Thanks.
 
An update on the mysterious starting problem...

Yesterday morning, the car wouldn't start after being outside all night. After a few hours in the warm garage, it started several times in a row, albeit with some hesitation, so I drove it to a Mobil station and added 8 gallons of fresh fuel. I was able to get a ride to work again, so I suggested that we leave it outside in the cold again to isolate whether it is an icing/water or sensor related problem.

Well, it didn't start again this morning, so it was pushed back into the bay, and the codes were looked at more closely. It turns out that the engine coolant temperature (ECT) sensor was spent, so that was a simple thirty dollar repair. However, another worrying analysis showed that cylinders one and four had misfired a combined 4,096 times apiece (!). The mechanic thinks that this is a coil pack issue, and has made an order for the $111 dollar part.

What do you all think of this analysis? Is this the probable culprit? Can that many misfires cause any significant damage? Thanks again for any input!
 
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m1lgram said:
...Well, it didn't start again this morning, so it was pushed back into the bay, and the codes were looked at more closely. It turns out that the engine coolant temperature (ECT) sensor was spent, so that was a simple thirty dollar repair. However, another worrying analysis showed that cylinders one and four had misfired a combined 4,096 times apiece (!). The mechanic thinks that this is a coil pack issue, and has made an order for the $111 dollar part.

What do you all think of this analysis? Is this the probable culprit? Can that many misfires cause any significant damage? Thanks again for any input!
Click to expand...
Yes, those items can all cause problems. As for the misfiring, yes, it could be the coil pack. But we (here) will not really know unless we have the codes (or freeze frame data). He is probably making an analysis based on the freeze frame or PIDs. And it is very possble coil "1-4" to be "kaput" in the coil pack. One way to confirm is to test it.

Edit. Autozone link for coil pack.
http://www.autozone.com/servlet/UiB..._us/0900823d/80/1b/c4/02/0900823d801bc402.jsp
 
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Those misfires could have been from the recent starting problems. Generally the Coil packs don't have problems. They are a high quality part that is actually over-engineered for this vehicle. I'm not discounting that it could be the culprit of your misfire issue, but I would definitely start with the basics like: plug gap on cylinders 1 & 4. On these cars "Pre-gapped=Wrong Gap". Plug wires, ground for the coil pack. I'm betting that the issue is more to do with fuel dousing the plugs during the no start issues you were having. Due to the cold temperatures outside, The plug fouling could last longer than normal. Just some thought to throw in there. Keep us informed please!!
 
I reread the thread. I thought "1-4" were the same coil but it is not for the Duratec. It is the same coil for the Zetec.

Yes, do check the sp gaps as posted. It would be a shame to spend $111 and then find out it was the sp gaps after all. :blackeye:
 
Well, the verdict is in. And it's somewhat expensive.

Replacing the mass airflow sensor and the intake gaskets are leaky. Ford quoted $220 for the sensor, but I found a remanufactured one for $70 at autozone, with a 90 day warranty. I simply can't afford otherwise at the moment. Shouldn't take longer than a half hour to install and calibrate. The gasket is $70, and will cost $220 to install, "three to four hours."

And, of course, the car started for them this morning. Heh.

In the meantime, this is looking more and more tempting as the days tick by without a car... http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mazd...ryZ84159QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
 
m1lgram said:
Well, the verdict is in. And it's somewhat expensive.

Replacing the mass airflow sensor and the intake gaskets are leaky. Ford quoted $220 for the sensor, but I found a remanufactured one for $70 at autozone, with a 90 day warranty. I simply can't afford otherwise at the moment. Shouldn't take longer than a half hour to install and calibrate. The gasket is $70, and will cost $220 to install, "three to four hours."

And, of course, the car started for them this morning. Heh.

In the meantime, this is looking more and more tempting as the days tick by without a car... http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mazd...ryZ84159QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Click to expand...
Ask them what are they calibrating?
 
Try replacing the fuel pump relay. Better yet, switch the fuel pump and horn relays in the relay box under the hood (Cost: Free).

If the problem persists, check for power to the fuel pump harness for the first three seconds the key is turned to ON. Power but no pump sound=bad pump. No power= electrical problem somewhere else.

Also, I believe the fuel pump relay is controlled by the computer which uses the signal from the crank position sensor to determine if the engine is turning. Check that.
 
Tony2005 said:
Ask them what are they calibrating?
Click to expand...

I didn't see this post until payment had been made, and it appears that an hour of labor was charged for the mass airflow sensor, $64.80. The receipt reads: "Replaced mass air flow sensor with customer's part to fix low baro reading at sensor."

All 4 intake gaskets were replaced, costing $70.30 for them, and $295.20 in labor. The receipt reads: "Ran engine diagnosis. Has cat converter codes. May need O2 sensors in future. Has vac. leaks at intake gaskets, replaced upper and lower intake gaskets."

It appears that the job worked. The temperature has ranged from -10f to 10f all day, and the car started without hesitation. The idle is rock-steady, and things seem ok (they ought to after dropping five hundred bucks into this). Now, if I could only afford tires to replace these bald ones.

Hope this information helps the archives, all. And again, thanks for all your input :)
 
m1lgram said:
I didn't see this post until payment had been made, and it appears that an hour of labor was charged for the mass airflow sensor, $64.80. The receipt reads: "Replaced mass air flow sensor with customer's part to fix low baro reading at sensor."
...
Click to expand...
Nah, this just means it was the labor to remove and reinstall.

Glad things worked out fine. :)
 
I'm mad.

The car functioned fine all weekend, after picking it up from the ford dealer and giving them $500 for their expertise.

So, I'm up and ready for work this morning, and SURPRISE! The car doesn't start. Same exact symptoms as before. Late AGAIN for work, I had to bum *another* ride. I feel like a shmuck.

So, what's the protocol here? What, exactly, should I pay for when I get another bill? Is it possible the mass airflow sensor and leaky intake gaskets were misdiagnosed?

Oh, and the cruise control decided to not work yesterday as well.

Advise is welcome.
 
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I still think this is a fuel or spark issue. Are you mechanically inclined at all? This is a serious question not intended to poke fun. If so, remove the Upper intake manifold and unclip the injector wire harnesses from the injectors one at a time. Each time, blow the injector harnesses out with some electronics cleaner. Do this for each injector. When you get it all back together, try to start the vehicle. If it starts reliably for the next few days, I would say that you have found the problem. If this does not correct the problem, I would try switching out your relays as mentioned a couple of posts above. It will help you determine where the problem is originating from. Don't throw money at the problem! If you use the advise given on this forum, you will save a ton of money. We've all been there which is why there is a forum dedicated to the car. If you need help with disassembling the upper intake manifold, buy a Chilton's or Hayne's manual. It is a VERY easy task to do. It is equally easy to swap out relays and even change the fuel pump. Don't be scared of this car, just learn about it by reading and asking questions here (after you search and read through the archived posts). I guarantee you success...eventually.

McGarvey makes another good point in his post above by mentioning the crank position sensor. However, it doesn't control fuel, it controls the spark signal by sensing the crank revolutions during start-up. If the wires to the CKPS (crank position sensor) are exposed from being to hot (very common on our cars) it may not be sending the signal to the coil pack to spark the plugs. The CKPS is located where the timing cover meets the block on the passenger side of the engine, and is above the A/C compressor. It is the only sensor plumbed into the block in that area. Check the wiring as well as the harness and clean it out.
 
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Also, take it back and ask them about the cruise control issue. They probably did not reinstall the cable for the cruise control back after reinstalling the UIM. If you look at the UIM/LIM rebuilding with pics, it shows the cables on the throttle bracket.

Edit. Bottom right of picture 5
http://www.contour.org/ubbthreads/s...d=allposts&Main=931756&Search=true#Post931756

That cable should go to the cruise control by the driver side strut tower.
http://www.autozone.com/servlet/UiB..._us/0900823d/80/1b/cf/b3/0900823d801bcfb3.jsp
 
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