Now that the dust settled a bit I only was referring to the comments you made not me about the time comparison. I am not going to say that your COP will not do more than the 3 liter hyrbid because we are all here to make changes to see if we can step one more notch up to making more power along with usable torque.
No no no, you aren't backpeddling anywhere my friend. You made an open attack on me on TWO forums with bad information and you think you're going to sweet talk me now? I would do this in a PM, but you aren't getting that satisfaction.
I was simply stating just like everyone else here is that your dyno is really has not shown one improvement over a single three liter swap with SVT cams yet. Me and Tom have stock piles of dynos since Tom studies the engines from the Airflow charts in relation to the mods and power. If you can sit down and be more civil and quit getting personal then maybe this can be a useful civil discussion.
Hasn't shown one improvement? I wasn't going for improvement, I was going for cost. The motor you are so centered around is STOCK! 2005 Sable, gutted precats and short ram intake. That's it! That's pretty much as stock as things get. You assumed I was trying to say they were better - Which depending on how you look at it from a cost/performance factor - It is.
And Now I am sure you are about to say I came out and attacked you personally well needless to say I had no idea that you even existed since I never went to your site. But once you made yourself known I noticed you had been bashing every idea we had two months ago still on your site but worst of attacking our integrity for no reason at all. If you call me BS on this one I will dig up the post and paste them here.
Yes, I said your supercharger wouldn't fit under the hood of a Cougar. And I said "I" think your Oval to Split mod is silly and un needed. Yes, I did that. However when you and Tom started a war against me in 2 threads on 2 different forums - I would call that an outright attack. You don't have integrity - I don't see it. You clearly miss some of the principles in engine design and don't even understand a simple "dyno" graph. Reading, writing and arithmetic (you learned it in school right?) Use them. You're smoking gun was so useless you had to photoshop it so it made sense to you... That was priceless.
It seems you always had a problem with us why I don't know and all it took was a little joke to get you in temper tandrem over nothing. But once you followed me over to NECO bashing our porjects and us personally I figured you came here looking for the friction you created all by yourself at your own site. Now put aside whatever issues you have with Me and Tom gives us raw data and we will provide you with the best comparison we have on a dyno in SAE not the inflated STD numbers too (usually) since we are allowing the correction factor to work it's magic.
No, I had a problem with you. Don't collect the CEG into this. That's the problem with this site and some members - Attack one and you get the herd. That's fine, however all the one's like Y2K and TourDeForce that stepped up to mock without any clear information are just "flamebaiters". I didn't see any warnings to them - I receieved an infraction after I left the thread when Mark stepped in. You seem to think this is a forum wide thing - I followed you on NECO after the "joke" post and made it a point to show how silly your idea was. I did, you retorted back a bunch of useless and really un needed information. I understand your HP figures are your claim to fame - However I showed that highest HP isn't the quickest. Hasn't that "lesson" soaked into your brain yet?
I agree with you on most part but th engine being highly modified but when you are really only comparing three factors that are really different here.
One you are using the stock 3 liter cams, Oval port LIM, and UIM so from my standpoint we are really talking about the intake system really being superior over the other right?
Are you kidding me? This is a comparison between a bone stock 3.0L and a hybrid built like you guys pretty much recommend. That was the reason that owner went that way in the first place - Now he wishes he would've saved his money and went the other route. I think the whole test is relevant and the sheets show you data you nor Tom has ever seen before. Why don't you take this as a lesson and learn something from it. Stop with the pointless comparisons.
Now the Kinger heads you are referring to is not really the bottle neck here it is the lower LIM since the cross area would be the smallest at this point riight?
The big complaint we have really been noticing or being mentioned by you is that the plenum volume is so much different that the intake flow is scavenging due to small volume. Well I would agree if I didn't see the 2.5 liter intakes which plenum is almost impossible to gut out to a larger volume has more than one hit numbers of 234 whp-240whp which no matter what cams or heads that was on the engine or how much rpms it was able to flow Xamount of cfm given over a period time to substain power through redline without dipping.
So how can you argue about the 2.5 liter intake built and designed by porshe we all know that was ahead of its time is being outflowed by the 3 liter engine. Heck the bigger plenum are usually meant to make more power up top than the smaller one. I would agree once you hit 300hp NA on these motors then I think the 3 liter intake will step up and show more potential because then the volume of the smaller SVT intake will not be able to supply the engine the air it needs to do so. But in order for all this to be true we would need the CR 12.5 adjustable cams race gas and turn it up to 8k rpms which no one here will ever do.
And once you get to 235whp NA you are now going to need FI to go further so now does it pay for anyone here to bring there car to any other place but there typical mechanic to do a easy swap either full 3 liter or just do a hyrbid w/LIM mod.
Oh I will assure you that I have a 80k motor sitting here that was going to be experimented for something else but now I will drop on my LIM mod and I will make a little gesture to say that it will hold the same torque down low and will definitly pass your SAE numbers up top. And your gutted cats are considered to be modified trust me we have test on the difference or less say dyno numbers.
Look. You obviously have little understanding of everything. It's plainly obvious to people who know better. You may "dazzle" the herd with your nonsense - Not me. I don't need your recommendations - I will never get a car tuned by you or Tom much less ever install your product. It scares me to think you service a whole Contour community and are blind to certain practices that are common in the tuning community. Not only that, you preach about this and that like it's needed period - That is a lie. People need proper information to make a choice, not ideas jammed down their throat so you can benefit $$$ from it. Of course you and Tom are going to both attack me - You have a personal interest in all this. I don't. Do you see me selling anything here? You can have all your fun you want with the turbos and superchargers, but you entered a realm of competition with 3L swaps as there are many people who do them. Some hobby, some professionally (like me) and looking at your ideas... they are wacky. I like the part about no tuning with that Split port mod. Lets open a big chamber before the valves with 2 different velocity incoming air streams (with no secondaries) and 'ASSUME' it will all work well. Do you even have one of these installed for testing? Proof? I'm shaking my head right now to think you are speculating on a paper project that isn't even real yet.
I love challenges that is what drives me to develop new ideas once you achieve your highest number based on $$$ I will show you what we can do too. Let make this a little more interesting I am sure most will enjoy to see the outcome. We already have gutted cat 3 liter dyno to match up to your dyno now and we will even let you use the STD one.
I've seen what you can do. Post dyno graphs of other people's cars and then say they are superior. I posted all my own graphs from engine's I've built. I have a ton more, however they are not all related to the discussion at hand. Displaying them would be confusing to everyone, I need 2 graphs to make a point - Not a "shock and awe" raping other sites for graphs of cars you never touched. I really don't want to talk nuts and bolts with you at all. I don't feel you are at my level, furthermore you clearly don't want to learn anything so what's the point? So I can hear more of your good "ideas"? Lol, instead of drawings - Come out with something and then talk about it. I did... everything I've talked about is sitting in my garage or garages over the country and is within feet away from their owner. When you get to that point - Let me know.
-Dom