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tighten throttle cable for mustang TB

Dyno a car get the A/f readings, then upgrade the manifolds and tb air intake etc, then dyno the car again with a/f readings, then prove to me that the maf can or did cover the difference accuratly or to the point where it shows that the car is not running any leaner.
You may have to give the PCM time to relearn fuel trims to a degree, when you change something. But unless you're changing the MAFS or housing, the PCM still sees the same airflow, (since the two things that it needs to accurately measure airflow have not changed), and introduces fuel accordingly. I don't have dyno charts to prove it to you... that's just how mass air induction systems work.
 
You may have to give the PCM time to relearn fuel trims to a degree, when you change something. But unless you're changing the MAFS or housing, the PCM still sees the same airflow, (since the two things that it needs to accurately measure airflow have not changed), and introduces fuel accordingly. I don't have dyno charts to prove it to you... that's just how mass air induction systems work.

I don't know if you were trying to insult me by stating "that's just how mass air induction system works"

But yes i do. Again i have seen plenty of dyno's supporting my evidence. The maf can not adjust accordingly as your making it seem it can. It is not as accurate as your believing it to be. that is what the pcm is meant to do. The MAf housing is kinda like a Guide for the pcm to add fuel etc, That is why tunning is given with specific mods you have done.

The maf tries to adjust and in most cases can not with an end result with a bad A/F ratio. If it can, tell me why they have maf optomizers? So you can adjust your own fuel ratios, AFPR?
 
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I don't know if you were trying to insult me
I definitely disagree with you, but no, I wasn't trying to insult you.


The maf tries to adjust and in most cases can not with an end result with a bad A/F ratio. If it can, tell me why they have maf optomizers? So you can adjust your own fuel ratios, AFPR?
But the PCM does the adjusting, and it does it based on the readings it gets from the MAFS.

I don't doubt that you've seen dyno's that seem to support your theory. But you can't do a pull on the dyno, swap out a part, & then do another pull & compare A/F ratios of the two runs - they will certainly be different. The PCM needs to learn what adjustments to make to fuel trims for any change in flow that the new part has caused. You also need to take into account the weather and engine temps when comparing graphs. The A/F from a dyno run on a 75° day with 10% humidity could be very different than a run done on an 85° day with 80% humidity.

I have an SE, SVT & 3L split port UIM. I have an SE, SVT, 65mm & 70mm TB's. Which parts do you want me to compare & dyno? This can be a project for me in the upcoming weeks... hell, if work stays dead, I'll do it THIS week.
 
I definitely disagree with you, but no, I wasn't trying to insult you.



But the PCM does the adjusting, and it does it based on the readings it gets from the MAFS.

I don't doubt that you've seen dyno's that seem to support your theory. But you can't do a pull on the dyno, swap out a part, & then do another pull & compare A/F ratios of the two runs - they will certainly be different. The PCM needs to learn what adjustments to make to fuel trims for any change in flow that the new part has caused. You also need to take into account the weather and engine temps when comparing graphs. The A/F from a dyno run on a 75° day with 10% humidity could be very different than a run done on an 85° day with 80% humidity.

I have an SE, SVT & 3L split port UIM. I have an SE, SVT, 65mm & 70mm TB's. Which parts do you want me to compare & dyno? This can be a project for me in the upcoming weeks... hell, if work stays dead, I'll do it THIS week.

I don't know if you understood what you wrote. I am not insulting you but correcting you.
Se tb = 55mm
SVT tb = 60mm

Yes i agree, i have said in multiple posts that it takes 4-6 driving days for the computer readjust. I agree 100% with you.

Do the 3L split port with the svt tb.

So you own an se contour take it?


Oh yeah the humidity ground elevation etc all plays a roll with producing power, but A/F ratios should be constant according to you, because the maf adjusts for these accurately??? But shouldn't the IAT sensor control the changes in weather??
 
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Do the 3L split port with the svt tb.
Cool... and compare it to what other combination?

Oh yeah the humidity ground elevation etc all plays a roll with producing power, but A/F ratios should be constant according to you, because the maf adjusts for these accurately???
IMO, yes. But I was trying to say that if there is a drastic change in climate, not just temp, and the PCM hasn't fully adapted to the current climate at the time of the run, the A/F can be off compared to another day's run.

But shouldn't the IAT sensor control the changes in weather??
Only for changes in air temperature.

I have four different TB's: SE, SVT, T-bird (65mm), & Mustang (70mm).

Yes, I own an SE.
 
Cool... and compare it to what other combination?


IMO, yes. But I was trying to say that if there is a drastic change in climate, not just temp, and the PCM hasn't fully adapted to the current climate at the time of the run, the A/F can be off compared to another day's run.


Only for changes in air temperature.

I have four different TB's: SE, SVT, T-bird (65mm), & Mustang (70mm).

Yes, I own an SE.

Oh the weather was almost identical with the same dyno being used and humidity was around the same at 22-25%.
We write down everyting on each day so we can use this data for corrections or adjustments in future dyno's.

You still haven't answered why they supply a maf optimizer though? :)

In the end the maf can only make adjustments soo far before the pcm makes adjustments on its own. Meaning the maf is limited to so far within a certain tolerance placed inside the pcm during the tuning process.

Well again i guess your dyno will only show the actual outcome :)

Oh i was comparing the 3l split port with svt tb vs your stock se setup :)
 
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You still haven't answered why they supply a maf optimizer though?
Probably to alter the signal the PCM recieves from the MAFS... I can only speculate because I've never heard of a MAF optimizer. Sounds like a gimmick.

In the end the maf can only make adjustments soo far before the pcm makes adjustments on its own.
The MAF is only a sensor. It's just an input for the PCM, just another thing the PCM monitors while the engine is running. The PCM makes adjustments based on info it gets from the MAFS, but the MAFS itself is not capable of making any sort of adjustments.
 
Relax a bit Harrry, SicSe is pretty much right on this one.

The MAF sensor is simply a sensor that figures out how much air is flowing through it in a way that compensates for both the volume and density of the air coming in, so they refer to it as measuring the mass of the air coming in.

The PCM/EEC, whatever you want to call the processor, lol, recieves an output voltage from the MAFS and compares it to a stored transfer function table to determine how much air is actually coming into the engine. In all closed loop operation the amount of fuel used is mostly determined by the signal from the MAFS. Other smaller factors in fine tuning the fuel are the O2 sensors and coolant and air temp sensors.

The transfer function stored in the PCM is an exponential function, which in this case means that the resolution or accuracy of the MAFS is much better in the lower to middle flow rates, and less accurate as you get closer to the maximum capability of that particular MAFS. Most cars, including the CSVT, are designed so there is a lot of extra headroom in the MAFS so that it never gets into the less accurate region of the sensor, in addition, at higher rpms and flow rates, the PCM switches over to open loop mode and pays much less attention to the MAFS signal, switching over to an open loop fueling table based on rpm and load calculations. Even on my car, which is a pretty solid NA 3.0L with a stock SVT MAF, I don't reach the flow rates that would have me worried about the MAFS being unable to read accurately.

In regards to tuning, a MAF sensor is merely a sensor, an input to help the PCM figure out what it needs to do. Also, the stored transfer function of the MAFS is only strictly accurate when you are using the original stock intake tract, throttle body and everything. Anything that can alter the flow distribution in the intake tract, such as an open element filter, a CAI, changing tube lengths, or even throttle body size or location has an effect on the accuracy of the MAF sensor. Most of these aren't huge changes, but they do have an effect on the airflow velocity profile through the MAFS, so consequently they affect the output of the sensor. These changes can be compensated for by modifying the transfer function stored in the PCM, by a good tuner using a proper wideband O2 sensor either on the dyno or possibly road tuning. Devices like the "MAF Optimizer" alter the output signal of the MAF sensor to compensate for the changes instead of doing it in the PCM. While this works for the most part, there are a number of calculations the PCM makes based on the MAF signal, and it it has been artificially altered, the PCM no longer has an accurate picture of what is actually coming in, and it can affect the driveability of the car. The same reasons for not using a device like a MAF optimizer apply to things like gutting or "optimizing" a stock MAF, though even a few more reasons exist not to do that. Just don't do it, nothing good can come of it. Even aftermarket MAFS aren't that great, quality control is spotty and sometimes you just plain can't get them to work right on a given car. IMNSHO opinion, stick w/ the stock Ford MAFS, if you really need more flow, get an 80mm MAF from a Lightning or Cobra R, or even 90mm from a later lightning or 03-04 Cobra, and have a good tuner change the transfer function in the PCM accordingly. If you have an aftermarket MAF already, and it works good, great, don't touch it, but if you are considering one, save yourself some potential headaches and even some cash and avoid them.

Oh, and one other thing I should mention, even though its not nearly as common among contours as mustangs, but you should NEVER use a "calibrated MAF" to change injectors. Some places deliberately alter the MAF output by an amount to compensate for larger injectors; this is a hack way to compensate for larger injectors, and a load based PCM (which all Contours use) will have some serious issues with it.
 
Great write up rara.

I appreciate you taking my pm seriously and spending some time doing this for me.

I see what your saying now, Especially since i understand programing, this all makes sense. I'm thinking the car we used didn't have the capability or programing that the newer cars have to adjust properly or maybe the maf was going bad.

Again great write up.
 
Well i just finished installing the 65mm TB. I welded a plate so the tb doesn't turn too far. Well what can i say . I love it, oh the whistle at low rpms is awesome the throttle response is the best thing of all. I don't even need to push the throttle down over 1/8 of the pedal the car just moves.

I broke my digital camera so i will be taking a driving video very soon :)

Great mod IMHO. I can't wait to get this thing on the dyno, thats for sure!
 
hi guys, great thread atm, but a quick question for ya...! im from across the pond in england and have recently bought a '98 mondeo st24, so has the 2.5 v6 non-svt basically, but just wondering what parts are needed to convert my block to run a mustang TB? and what induction kits are needed to fit onto this?any help is appreciated, thanks, Tom
 
hi guys, great thread atm, but a quick question for ya...! im from across the pond in england and have recently bought a '98 mondeo st24, so has the 2.5 v6 non-svt basically, but just wondering what parts are needed to convert my block to run a mustang TB? and what induction kits are needed to fit onto this?any help is appreciated, thanks, Tom
it will bolt your manifold as is. you'll need to do something w/the throttle cable,or use the linkage from a svt/st200 tb and modify the shaft to allow for a bigger plate,the screw holes line up. its a 65mm tb,yours is 54mm's
 
thanks alot for the response, i take it is the 87-93 mustang TB needed? they have some 75mm TB's aswell, look sweet! just need to sort out shipping now, and last thing do u know which intake pipe will fit on the new TB? thanks again
 
no,it the 4.6L tb. fromt the tbird, crown vic,mustang..among others. the 94-current i'd assume
 
You don't need a 75mm throttle body on a 2.5L. Even the 65mm is a little large for a near stock 2.5L.
 
I'm going to be grabbing one later today assuming it doesn't rain... Junkyard by me is dirt cheap and has quite a few cars with the 4.6 so I may grab a few different ones to see what style works best for us.

Now, my car currently I would consider near-stock but with the upcoming mods I think the 65mm tb may be beneficial.

Current Mods:
Bat inlet pipe, K&N RU-3530/Maf adaptor, optimized stock SVT tb, optimized y-pipe, True borla catback exhaust.

Upcoming Mods:
MSDS Headers, Either Chip or Xcal3/tune, Nima's PS/Alt udp's...

I think with the headers and tune on top of what's been done already I may see some gains from the 65mm TB. At that point I think the borla will be holding me back...
 
What model Mustang TB. I just got a 1999 Mecury Mystique.

A 65mm SOHC Modular 4.6L TB?
 
Anything with a newer 4.6, thunderbird, Mustang GT, Crown Vic, etc...

But since you have a Mystique with i'm assuming a near stock 2.5, you'd be much better off with an SVT tb...
 
I already have the TB I need laying around, so the 65MM it is.

It will not be stock for long.

I have only had it for about 4 days. So far I have the SVT cluster, 5-spoke SVT Rims, SVT Springs/Struts and some coilovers in the mail.

Once I get it inspected all that will be going on.

Once I finish my project zx2 I will be making up headers and true dual ehxaust, SVT PCM, different IM it looks like (Suggestions? SVT IM or KLZE IM),
 
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