Secondaries in LIM make no sense...

[blu_fuz]

I def think you would be hitting the 200 whp mark with 200wtq with ease.

Yep, that's what I am thinking too.

Hopefully something will happen for SZ '10. I just wanted it to run for SZ and didn't want to mess anything up and end up with no car again for the meet.

It was a comparison between the svt uim. 3l uim and mazda6 uim.
To see which car put down the best numbers at the same AFR. Which is the only way to do a proper comparison.

^ I see what he was doing now..... it is a wierd comparison still and I guess that is really the only thing to keep consistant throughout each type of build..... I probably would have tuned for best #s not AFR consistancy.

 

[elraido]

Because...he didn't want to give it an advantage over the other 3.0L dyno runs.

It was a comparison between the svt uim. 3l uim and mazda6 uim.
To see which car put down the best numbers at the same AFR. Which is the only way to do a proper comparison.

But in a way it is half assing it. I know WHY he did it but it makes zero sense to do it. There is no reason to do a dyno on each one if you were not going to do the proper optimal tune for each one.

 

[Harrry]

But in a way it is half assing it. I know WHY he did it but it makes zero sense to do it. There is no reason to do a dyno on each one if you were not going to do the proper optimal tune for each one.

Considering he is paying out of pocket. It took him all day to dyno those 3 intakes.

Then you want him to do multiple runs to dyno tune correctly each car? It's almost $800 to rent a dyno for that day. It's too much to ask. But if he switched days...then people would say what was the temperature that day..humidity etc etc. You can't win. But in this case it was the best he could do with the time that was given to him

 

[Harrry]

^ I see what he was doing now..... it is a wierd comparison still and I guess that is really the only thing to keep consistant throughout each type of build.

Exactly!!

 

[Big Jim]

Jim, let me know when you've built and owned both types (afaik you have neither). Until then I just don't think your opinion has any value.

You are right, I have not "come out of retirement" to build a Contour 3.0. As a result there will be some aspects of this that I will not know as well as I could.

But let me make a partial list of the cars I have owned and highly modified.

1954 Ford with a 312 (stock was an OHV 239).

1963 Chevrolet Impala Convertible with a built 327. Car came with a 300 HP 237. Had several configurations. Built it differently each time I blew the engine. Last engine had Corvette short block (11:1 pistons) double camel back heads (ported and polished), 350 HP Corvette hydraulic cam, and Carter AFB from a 409. I liked that cam the best. I also tried the 30-30 Corvette cam and cams from Crane, Isky, and Sig Erson (or however he spelled his last name, his cams wore like butter). It had a Muncie 4 speed. I also ran several sets of gears in the rear end, including 4.56, 4.11, 5.18, 3.36, and 3.70. I liked the 3.70 set the best and the 5.18 set the least. I would have driver's of 396 Chevelles follow me home after blowing them off and insisting that I open the hood to show them what I had.

1968 Olds 442. Came with 400. Swapped in a Toronado 455. Came with 3.08 gears. Swapped for 3.90. Relatively stock with mild tuning. Boatloads of torque.

1972 Ford Ranchero GT. Came with a 429. Threw a rod and installed a Lincoln 460 short block. Ported and polished the heads. Increased the valves to 429 CJ valves. Installed 429 CJ intake manifold. Installed 429 CJ hydraulic cam. Converted to electronic ignition. Installed a Motorcraft 4300D carb from a Pantera (800CFM). Pretty hot car for its day. Dyno'd at 405 WHP.

Those are the ones I owned. I have also been a major contributor on many others. 1917 T bucket with small block Chevy. 1929 Model A with a 394 Olds. 1930 Ford Model A with a 56 Chrysler Hemi. 1972 Mavrick with a 351 Windsor (believe it or not, it was a tight fit, it also didn't make much additional power over the stock 302 with the stock 302 exhaust manifolds, it came alive when custom headers were fitted).

When I worked as a dealership technician, I was the "go to" guy in town for many hot rodders that had installed speed equipment of one kind or another and couldn't make it run right. This included engine swaps.

I was also the guy in town that worked on Marine engines of all sorts, from ski boats and up. That would be Marine engines that were converted auto engines (small block Chevys, large block Chevys, early Chrysler Hemis, 460 Fords, and so on).

I also drew the Repair Orders for all the factory hot rods that came into the shop, such as the Boss 302, Boss 428, Boss 429, Cobra Jets, Panteras, Corvettes (especially big blocks). One Pantera owner dropped off his Pantera with a credit card for me to drive for three months while he was in Europe. He told me to charge the gas and any repairs I felt it needed on his credit card. It was a modified Pantera with a high rise intake manifold and a Holley double pumper and headers. It was not as fast as the one with twin turbos that I worked on too.

Because of my lack of fear to work on less known products, I also got drafted to work on Propane and CNG equipped cars, both single and dual fuel. At least one single fuel one had high compression pistons and was tuned to optimize Propane.

So I'll give you that I have not done a 3.0 swap on a Contour, but until you have the level of overall experience and knowledge of theory, don't write off my knowledge as meaningless.

 

[BAD SVT]

You are right, I have not "come out of retirement" to build a Contour 3.0. As a result there will be some aspects of this that I will not know as well as I could.

But let me make a partial list of the cars I have owned and highly modified.

1954 Ford with a 312 (stock was an OHV 239).

1963 Chevrolet Impala Convertible with a built 327. Car came with a 300 HP 237. Had several configurations. Built it differently each time I blew the engine. Last engine had Corvette short block (11:1 pistons) double camel back heads (ported and polished), 350 HP Corvette hydraulic cam, and Carter AFB from a 409. I liked that cam the best. I also tried the 30-30 Corvette cam and cams from Crane, Isky, and Sig Erson (or however he spelled his last name, his cams wore like butter). It had a Muncie 4 speed. I also ran several sets of gears in the rear end, including 4.56, 4.11, 5.18, 3.36, and 3.70. I liked the 3.70 set the best and the 5.18 set the least. I would have driver's of 396 Chevelles follow me home after blowing them off and insisting that I open the hood to show them what I had.

1968 Olds 442. Came with 400. Swapped in a Toronado 455. Came with 3.08 gears. Swapped for 3.90. Relatively stock with mild tuning. Boatloads of torque.

1972 Ford Ranchero GT. Came with a 429. Threw a rod and installed a Lincoln 460 short block. Ported and polished the heads. Increased the valves to 429 CJ valves. Installed 429 CJ intake manifold. Installed 429 CJ hydraulic cam. Converted to electronic ignition. Installed a Motorcraft 4300D carb from a Pantera (800CFM). Pretty hot car for its day. Dyno'd at 405 WHP.

Those are the ones I owned. I have also been a major contributor on many others. 1917 T bucket with small block Chevy. 1929 Model A with a 394 Olds. 1930 Ford Model A with a 56 Chrysler Hemi. 1972 Mavrick with a 351 Windsor (believe it or not, it was a tight fit, it also didn't make much additional power over the stock 302 with the stock 302 exhaust manifolds, it came alive when custom headers were fitted).

When I worked as a dealership technician, I was the "go to" guy in town for many hot rodders that had installed speed equipment of one kind or another and couldn't make it run right. This included engine swaps.

I was also the guy in town that worked on Marine engines of all sorts, from ski boats and up. That would be Marine engines that were converted auto engines (small block Chevys, large block Chevys, early Chrysler Hemis, 460 Fords, and so on).

I also drew the Repair Orders for all the factory hot rods that came into the shop, such as the Boss 302, Boss 428, Boss 429, Cobra Jets, Panteras, Corvettes (especially big blocks). One Pantera owner dropped off his Pantera with a credit card for me to drive for three months while he was in Europe. He told me to charge the gas and any repairs I felt it needed on his credit card. It was a modified Pantera with a high rise intake manifold and a Holley double pumper and headers. It was not as fast as the one with twin turbos that I worked on too.

Because of my lack of fear to work on less known products, I also got drafted to work on Propane and CNG equipped cars, both single and dual fuel. At least one single fuel one had high compression pistons and was tuned to optimize Propane.

So I'll give you that I have not done a 3.0 swap on a Contour, but until you have the level of overall experience and knowledge of theory, don't write off my knowledge as meaningless.

DAYUM!!! :shocked:

 

[Reebs]

I've done many of both builds and still do both builds to this day. The pro/cons are so debatable it is not worth my time to join in these goofy discussions. :laugh:

Let it be known that Reebs loves all 3L swaps, plus, I have to do whatever the customer pleases anyways!

 

[elraido]

Let it be known that Reebs loves all 3L swaps, plus, I have to do whatever the customer pleases anyways!

Anything huh? Does the wife approve? :laugh:

 

[Brokendown]

If I put in my oval port 24# injectors and got a tune, would the car be "better" or is the spray pattern for oval port injectors never going to work for a split port LIM? I guess I just keep doing research and come across other peoples posts and I start getting confused again. And I know people say "just stick with 19# injectors", well that really limits my cars potential in my mind, because they are already maxed out...

 

[Redlineracer12]

If I put in my oval port 24# injectors and got a tune, would the car be "better" or is the spray pattern for oval port injectors never going to work for a split port LIM? I guess I just keep doing research and come across other peoples posts and I start getting confused again. And I know people say "just stick with 19# injectors", well that really limits my cars potential in my mind, because they are already maxed out...

Maxed out how? People have made around 275whp on stock 19# injectors, so you are not maxing them out.

 

[elraido]

Maxed out how? People have made around 275whp on stock 19# injectors, so you are not maxing them out.

at 90% duty cycle, 19lb injectors top out at about 205BHP or ~175WHP. 24lb injectors at the same duty cycle top out at about 260BHP or ~220WHP.

running fuel injectors at above 90% duty cycle is really hard on the injector and can burn it out fast. at your current 190WHP, your running the 17lb injectors at over 100% (~109% according to calculations) duty cycle. the same power on 19lb injectors is over 100% duty cycle (~101%). with 24lb injectors you would only be at ~80% duty cycle.

That is why. Not so much maxing them out but going to kill them before long.

 

[Harrry]

That is why. Not so much maxing them out but going to kill them before long.

You are soo full of cut and paste. Every factual information you offer is from someone else. :laugh:

Your still a good guy elraido..but just funny.

 

[elraido]

You are soo full of cut and paste. Every factual information you offer is from someone else. :laugh:

Your still a good guy elraido..but just funny.

I just remember reading things....bringing up the topic...and someone else chimes in. :laugh:

 

[Pudmunkie]

You are right, I have not "come out of retirement" to build a Contour 3.0. As a result there will be some aspects of this that I will not know as well as I could.

But let me make a partial list of the cars I have owned and highly modified.

1954 Ford with a 312 (stock was an OHV 239).

1963 Chevrolet Impala Convertible with a built 327. Car came with a 300 HP 237. Had several configurations. Built it differently each time I blew the engine. Last engine had Corvette short block (11:1 pistons) double camel back heads (ported and polished), 350 HP Corvette hydraulic cam, and Carter AFB from a 409. I liked that cam the best. I also tried the 30-30 Corvette cam and cams from Crane, Isky, and Sig Erson (or however he spelled his last name, his cams wore like butter). It had a Muncie 4 speed. I also ran several sets of gears in the rear end, including 4.56, 4.11, 5.18, 3.36, and 3.70. I liked the 3.70 set the best and the 5.18 set the least. I would have driver's of 396 Chevelles follow me home after blowing them off and insisting that I open the hood to show them what I had.

1968 Olds 442. Came with 400. Swapped in a Toronado 455. Came with 3.08 gears. Swapped for 3.90. Relatively stock with mild tuning. Boatloads of torque.

1972 Ford Ranchero GT. Came with a 429. Threw a rod and installed a Lincoln 460 short block. Ported and polished the heads. Increased the valves to 429 CJ valves. Installed 429 CJ intake manifold. Installed 429 CJ hydraulic cam. Converted to electronic ignition. Installed a Motorcraft 4300D carb from a Pantera (800CFM). Pretty hot car for its day. Dyno'd at 405 WHP.

Those are the ones I owned. I have also been a major contributor on many others. 1917 T bucket with small block Chevy. 1929 Model A with a 394 Olds. 1930 Ford Model A with a 56 Chrysler Hemi. 1972 Mavrick with a 351 Windsor (believe it or not, it was a tight fit, it also didn't make much additional power over the stock 302 with the stock 302 exhaust manifolds, it came alive when custom headers were fitted).

When I worked as a dealership technician, I was the "go to" guy in town for many hot rodders that had installed speed equipment of one kind or another and couldn't make it run right. This included engine swaps.

I was also the guy in town that worked on Marine engines of all sorts, from ski boats and up. That would be Marine engines that were converted auto engines (small block Chevys, large block Chevys, early Chrysler Hemis, 460 Fords, and so on).

I also drew the Repair Orders for all the factory hot rods that came into the shop, such as the Boss 302, Boss 428, Boss 429, Cobra Jets, Panteras, Corvettes (especially big blocks). One Pantera owner dropped off his Pantera with a credit card for me to drive for three months while he was in Europe. He told me to charge the gas and any repairs I felt it needed on his credit card. It was a modified Pantera with a high rise intake manifold and a Holley double pumper and headers. It was not as fast as the one with twin turbos that I worked on too.

Because of my lack of fear to work on less known products, I also got drafted to work on Propane and CNG equipped cars, both single and dual fuel. At least one single fuel one had high compression pistons and was tuned to optimize Propane.

So I'll give you that I have not done a 3.0 swap on a Contour, but until you have the level of overall experience and knowledge of theory, don't write off my knowledge as meaningless.

Your vast pool of knowledge with other cars does not imply any real world experience with our topic.

If I have any questions on old cars I'll give you a shout. I'm not trying to be rude, though I probably came off that way. I have a high level of respect for you, you're always very helpful. You just always seem to pick the opposite (wrong) side of my argument.

I suppose people are going to keep doing split port swaps regardless... Everyone is entitled to make a poor decision in their life :laugh:

 

[biminiLX]

Low performance cams? hardly. Aarons old beast of a motor with svt cams put ZERO ground on my old car. on top of that I had a larger more manageable power curve. (and apprntly a more reliable swap). Full 3 liter will always be a better swap.

I love how you always go back to this roll race as the definitive reason why full 3Ls are the absolute best. :nonono:
It's no secret I feel your the biggest tool here so I don't really give your opinion much bearing to my decisions on 3L builds.
There are ways to maximize each build for different goals and a full 3L is definitely NOT always the best.
There have been some very excellent 3L builds on here and you do NOT have one of them.
As far as Jim goes, all that experience DOES prove something, at least to me. I also have some experience making things go faster and regardless if its building a 3L or not, there are basic keys to making power that apply.
I have no doubt when I design a 3L build (which will be happening, probably a year or so away) it would outperform anything a punk like you could come up with---and I'd put my money on Jim for that as well.
-J

 

[elraido]

There have been some very excellent 3L builds on here and you do NOT have one of them.

-J

that is because he doesn't own it anymore. :shrug: have you been in the car? have you taken it for a drive? you don't know what this car can do, or what he did to it.

and honestly, I have to agree with Pud on this one. granted Jim has done a LOT of work on cars...but he has never touched a 3.0L on this platform. how can he say one is better than another? I find it funny that a lot of people who have had both, like the full more. Then again what do the people who have done actual practicle work with both set ups know?

 

[Big Jim]

Your vast pool of knowledge with other cars does not imply any real world experience with our topic.

If I have any questions on old cars I'll give you a shout. I'm not trying to be rude, though I probably came off that way. I have a high level of respect for you, you're always very helpful. You just always seem to pick the opposite (wrong) side of my argument.

I suppose people are going to keep doing split port swaps regardless... Everyone is entitled to make a poor decision in their life :laugh:

You really do have a lot to learn. I wish you and your tunopea well. (Tunopea = tunnel thought).

 

[turbo_fox]

I love how you always go back to this roll race as the definitive reason why full 3Ls are the absolute best. :nonono:
It's no secret I feel your the biggest tool here so I don't really give your opinion much bearing to my decisions on 3L builds.
There are ways to maximize each build for different goals and a full 3L is definitely NOT always the best.
There have been some very excellent 3L builds on here and you do NOT have one of them.
As far as Jim goes, all that experience DOES prove something, at least to me. I also have some experience making things go faster and regardless if its building a 3L or not, there are basic keys to making power that apply.
I have no doubt when I design a 3L build (which will be happening, probably a year or so away) it would outperform anything a punk like you could come up with---and I'd put my money on Jim for that as well.
-J

well said. I have a ported 3L, never driven a full 3L so I don't feel compelled to chime in on this argument most of the time, but the fact that he consistently comes out with these blanket statements is pretty foolish. The bottom line is both swaps have their merits and their downsides. When I built mine, the lack of tuning and the stock appearance were important. I autocross the car, and spend the majority of my runs above 5k, a ported swap was perfect. I wasnt looking for the top numbers, I wanted something that drove the same as stock, but just had 30 or so more HP than stock. Split ports fit the bill perfectly. Does it mean its the best swap, nope. Do I make the most power, nope. do i care, nope.

This isn't a cut and dry issue. There are many factors at play.

 

[Pudmunkie]

well said. I have a ported 3L, never driven a full 3L so I don't feel compelled to chime in on this argument most of the time, but the fact that he consistently comes out with these blanket statements is pretty foolish. The bottom line is both swaps have their merits and their downsides. When I built mine, the lack of tuning and the stock appearance were important. I autocross the car, and spend the majority of my runs above 5k, a ported swap was perfect. I wasnt looking for the top numbers, I wanted something that drove the same as stock, but just had 30 or so more HP than stock. Split ports fit the bill perfectly. Does it mean its the best swap, nope. Do I make the most power, nope. do i care, nope.

This isn't a cut and dry issue. There are many factors at play.

I see your point, I won't deny that there may be reasons why someone would do a split port, it may even make some decent power if you take the time and money to do it right. The fact of the matter though is that 95% of CEG that will decide to do a 3 liter will be better suited to an oval port; there is less for them to fk up.

Someone has to voice that opinion, if not then we'll have a ton of 175hp 3 liter contours running around.

I love how you always go back to this roll race as the definitive reason why full 3Ls are the absolute best. :nonono:
It's no secret I feel your the biggest tool here so I don't really give your opinion much bearing to my decisions on 3L builds.
There are ways to maximize each build for different goals and a full 3L is definitely NOT always the best.
There have been some very excellent 3L builds on here and you do NOT have one of them.
As far as Jim goes, all that experience DOES prove something, at least to me. I also have some experience making things go faster and regardless if its building a 3L or not, there are basic keys to making power that apply.
I have no doubt when I design a 3L build (which will be happening, probably a year or so away) it would outperform anything a punk like you could come up with---and I'd put my money on Jim for that as well.
-J

Cool story. Build your own 3 liter, die in a fire, whatever... I don't really care. You continue to direct posts at me like I care what they say.

 

[biminiLX]

Cool story. Build your own 3 liter, die in a fire, whatever... I don't really care. You continue to direct posts at me like I care what they say.

Sad, the DB moderator can't take some of his own BS? :shrug:
Just remember you started the with me, so I have no problem pointing out what a tool you are whenever I can, which is quite often. :help:
I really can't believe you're a moderator the way you start BS with inflammatory posts. I'll give you it keeps CEG, but not necessarily a good thing.
-J