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I need some help from you all...

B

BurritaSVT

Veteran CEG'er
Joined
Feb 28, 2001
Messages
756
Location
houma, LA 70360
I came across a very odd situation where I have two 2.5 liter cams and two 3 liter cams. The two 2.5 cams are the 1999 SVT cams and 1998 SE cams now these two intake lobes had a lift of .19 on the cams which were the same for the two cams. The 2.5 cams have over 100k miles on each one where the 3 liter cams are less then 60k. The two 3 liter cams which are one 2001 escape cams and the other 2001 taurus where the two cams intake lobes measured a .17" lift. Now the part numbers are all the same as far as the replacements but we all know ford will make all the cams on the shelf the same to save inventory. Now I posted a video on NECO which was proving to Buckeye that the measurements I made were right. So did ford change the cams in 2004 and just made all the older ones the same part number to get them standardized. Now the service bulletin shows that the new 2004 is the same lift as SVT and SE which was verfied by Buckeye too. He also resourced back to the 2002 on his bullentin to see the lift on the cams and they say 2002 should also be .19" . Now I want to rule out th efact that a 50k motor roller cams not even pushrod style will wear that fast with low miles.
http://easylink.playstream.com/burritasvt/svtcamsagainstescape.wvx

I need someone to make the measurements on the lobe be sure to zero out first then see what lift you have. List the year and engine.

Second his bulletin all saids the Rocker arm ratio changed 2004 to a 2:1 where before it was 1:8 now I did call Bill Jenkins to see if the heads were the same because in order to gain a bigger ratio you must have a longer arm right? Or I am missing something here. But to cover all my unanswered questions I also asked him to see if the valve lifters, cams, valves. roller finger were any difference in part numbers. "Bill said all the same from 2000-2005" what are we missing here nothings adds up I think either Ford is being lazy here or what?

Any info would help because maybe the 2004 engine will be a better setup with the higher ratio if the heads are different. I also want to get more info on the cams so we can make the best full swap. I am thinking if the earlier 3 liter have lower lifts then the best swaps maybe full 3 liter swaps 2004 or earlier swaps using the SE or SVT cams for better lift. Or even better than all the SVT or SE cams may make the 2004 a really around great motor. joey
 
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I don't have any data, but... since Ford has been getting rid of the CSVT parts, I would not be surprised if the current dealer CSVT cam is the non-svt part. Can't Bill also see the part revision history? I thought he could see the previous part #'s and their revision date... but I didn't think he could look up those old part #'s.

Also... I am very curious about the ST220 cam specs (slightly off-topic though).
 
Welp, if the '04 engines have higher lift cams that'd be great, but I'd still be concerned 'bout the sand issues in the ESCAPE/TRIBUTE motors. I'll take a few less ponies or find some higher lift (SVT or '04+ 3L) cams to swap in to avoid the potential engine failures.

An extra 20 HP ain't worth nothin' if the engine is hanging from a hoist.

An '05 engine may be an option if the cranks are still forged.
 
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TourDeForce said:
Welp, if the '04 engines have higher lift cams that'd be great, but I'd still be concerned 'bout the sand issues in those motors. I'll take a few less ponies or find some higher lift (SVT or '04+ 3L) cams to swap in to avoid the potential engine failures.

An extra 20 HP ain't worth nothin' if the engine is hanging from a hoist.

An '05 engine may be an option if the cranks are still forged.
Click to expand...

excuse the noob but am trying to understand wot u wrote here, but it seems contradictory :shrug:. Do u prefer 04+ motors or not?
 
05 blocks should be free of the zircon issue you are speaking off, and possibly benefit from larger cooling passages.

Is it enough of a difference to go out of the way to buy one? probably not. But if its local...
 
Pudmunkie said:
05 blocks should be free of the zircon issue you are speaking off, and possibly benefit from larger cooling passages.

Is it enough of a difference to go out of the way to buy one? probably not. But if its local...
Click to expand...

I dunno. The extra lift apparently gives a smoother torque curve and up to 20 extra HP at the top of the rev range. $350 or so for an older motor or $500 for a newer one. $150 well spent if the extra 20 ponies come with little/no extra work.

BAD SVT said:
oh. i get it now. i had to read it over a few times, ma bad. So u'd rather take an earlier motor and just install the larger cams from the 04 or SVT
Click to expand...

Because of possible sand contamination in the '04 ESCAPE/TRIBUTE engines, correct.

Joey is still trying to confirm the lift on the '04+ 3L cams, so the jury is out on that one.
 
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If I am on the right track I think even if you think the block is not worth the swap for your own reasons the finger rollers if we find out tonite are truly different where they moved the roller postion to make a higher ratio then that will give you more power right there just the rollers. I would love to see someone take this higher arm ratio and put some SE or SVT cams under them to compare them to the stock taurus 2004 cams. I also found out the cams were changed in 2004 and the replacements are all the new ones now.

Come on someone here must have some escape cams or taurus cams lying around and caliper to measure the lift...........Joey
 
TourDeForce said:
I dunno. The extra lift apparently gives a smoother torque curve and up to 20 extra HP at the top of the rev range. $350 or so for an older motor or $500 for a newer one. $150 well spent if the extra 20 ponies come with little/no extra work.



Because of possible sand contamination in the '04 engines, correct.

Joey is still trying to confirm the lift on the '04+ 3L cams, so the jury is out on that one.
Click to expand...

You've had the longest plans of doing a 3L swap on this site. Less talking, more swapping! :laugh:

Mark
 
STOP making my engine choosing sooo difficult. now ill wait till we get this figured out before i make my descion. my svt cams i picked up are looking for a new home quick
 
yamaha racer 686 said:
STOP making my engine choosing sooo difficult. now ill wait till we get this figured out before i make my descion. my svt cams i picked up are looking for a new home quick
Click to expand...

no the svt cams still have same lift as most cams but a hotter grind suited for peak power. The bigger difference is the rocker arms if the ford service manual is correct this means that the valuable part of the engine is just the rocker arms rollers.

Here a example of what I computed from the ford manual not verfiied yet by calipers is that:
all model before 2004 has a rocker ratio of 1.8:1

all cams with .19" lift will move the valve .3384"
all cams with .17" lift will move the valve .3060"

now 2004 updated rocker arms are 2.0:1 ratio
therefore
all cams with .19" lift will move the valve .3760"
all cams with .17" lift will move the valve .3400"

so if you put the newer version rockers in to replace the old rockers you gain 10% more lift /more air on the .19" lift cam

so now the svt cams are still better in all out performance but now the new version rocker arms I repeat once buckeye verifies it to be true will make the cams even make more power. Now as soon as someone gets me some measurements on the escape cams 2000-2003 and it matches my calipers readings then this cam will be the lesser cam to uses all around. Joey
 
Y2KSVT said:
You've had the longest plans of doing a 3L swap on this site. Less talking, more swapping! :laugh:

Mark
Click to expand...


No ish. Him and Marauder should have a planning party. Any swap will have an ish ton more power than currently in any of his cars.
 
will the greater lift be bad news for the older engines due to not having the valve reliefs? could i safely put them on my '98 3L and not have an issue with valve - piston clearance?
how much would a set of these new lifters cost? anyone?
 
soo what im gathering is that i want the 2004+ 3L. with the svt cams to make the most power?? or do i just want 2004 lifters in the 2001+ heads and block??

and that theory states that the 2004 3l with svt cams will make 10% more power then say a 2001 3l with svt cams. correct?
 
BurritaSVT said:
If I am on the right track I think even if you think the block is not worth the swap for your own reasons the finger rollers if we find out tonite are truly different where they moved the roller postion to make a higher ratio then that will give you more power right there just the rollers. I would love to see someone take this higher arm ratio and put some SE or SVT cams under them to compare them to the stock taurus 2004 cams. I also found out the cams were changed in 2004 and the replacements are all the new ones now.

Come on someone here must have some escape cams or taurus cams lying around and caliper to measure the lift...........Joey
Click to expand...


Joey,

It just occurred to me that it is not possible that the roller can be moved or it would place it out of alignment with the cam. If the cam were moved in the head to a different alignment then it would be possible but that would mean the heads would not be the same.....
 
Well tom I called and the part numbers were the same so can you pick up where I left off while I am gone and find out thanks Joey

PS I realized that too since the cams would be farther away from the center of axis since you are no moving the came inward too so we need head measurements too. Joey
 
10% more lift does not equate to 10% more power. It just does not work anywhere that simply.
Also something to think about is the velocity loss at lower engine rpm. If you are effective speeding up the ramp of the cam lobe you will drop airflow velocity quicker. While this is not a big issue in the upper rpm range it will hurt lower rpm power. Maybe even mid-range power.
Also on the top end you will need an intake setup that can efficiently and effectively support this increase in airflow ability. No plastic manifolds here!
I'll stop at this point but there are numerous other factors to consider as well. The moral of the story I am bringing up is that you will need to plan your engine and manifold combination to utilize this change in the airflow and cam timing dynamics. This is not just a bolt-on and go type of modification. Then again most truly are not if you look at the whole picture.

I will throw in another point or two. Spring bind and rebound/oscillation control in the upper rpm range. Will the stock keepers fail? I'm betting they'll be fine if we're placing bets.
 
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^^^^^ I <3 this guy ^^^^^^

but i dont think anyone said that 10% more airflow is 10% more power. but it helps, and makes porting and optimization of intake parts more important!

anyhow, i have the SVT cams in a 3L block, with all of the 3L components on them.

so is the 03 rocker arms (followers, w/e) and SVT cams a good combo? or did i screw up by not using the SVT ones?
 
I have a 2003 cam. I messure it to be right around .1700 +/- on the lobe while zeroed to the round part of the cam. The number stamped on the cam is FE-6A267-AA, it is the water pump cam.

CamLobe.jpg


I used the 2003 followers, so here is a picture of the 1998 SVT Roller Follower. When I looked at them before I installed the cams I did not notice any size difference, but I was not really looking for one. They appeared the same and fit perfectly.

CamFollower.jpg
 
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