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Any one tune for E85?

H

hylix

CEG'er
Joined
Apr 13, 2004
Messages
229
Location
colorado springs
I know what most of you are thinking, based on what my serch efforts have turned up so far.. "Why would anyone want E85?" Please hold back the flames guys, I'm looking for info, not a beating :help: :crazy:

Can someone that knows more about the Tuning aspect of E85 shed some light on this for me? What would be the pitfalls of tuning for it, and in the process of building a performance oriented car, would it be worth the hassle? I like the additional octane especially for boosted applications. Dyno tuning would likely be a must, however, that's not very different than tuning for other major modifications.

has anyone here actually tuned for e85 and made apropriate modifications to support it? any success stories?

I recall someone on here with a boosted Honda that seen big gains from tuning for E85, cant find the post, however, i didn't look very hard...

I hear about decreased performance, damage to seals, fuel lines and gaskets, and heat issues all in an attempt to deter anyone from using it, and as such I suspect that conversation will turn to the direction of other supporting modifications for using E85 (or why not to), but that is for other discussion, Here I am interested in what it would take to tune for it.

The following does not pertain to tuning, but I feel it's necessary to point out the the pro-cons conversation that people will want to get into regarding E85 in order to slow the off topic comments.

Mods, Please feel free to move this thread or delete the following.

My googleing has turned up a lot of information about E85 as opposed to 100% ethanol.

It seems that most of the 'Tribal knowledge' on these forums is pertaining to running 100% ethanol (based on the caveats people mention), and the experiences of others seem to be only filling up with E85, with out any supporting modification at all.

Here are some ethanol related complaints I have found, and their respective pro-E85 rebuttal (not my opinion or educated stance on the matter, just regurgation of my research).

-100% ethanol will dry out rubber and damage cork gaskets.
+E85's 15% gasoline seems to keep rubber lubricated, although will still damage cork gaskets. The reduction of water content in the recent distilling processes also reduces acids that would otherwise be present to damage other components.

-The water content of 'old' ethanol would rust steel lines.
+There are a lot of claims that the newer processes for distilling ethanol keeps it 'dryer', even as dry or better than gasoline.

-Ethanol has lower energy content than gasoline
+E85 is a higher octane, around 105, giving opportunity to tune for more power, particularly with boost or high compression.

-Ethanol will cause premature heat related damage
+E85 apparently burns cooler, not sure where the heat issues are coming from.

-It takes more ethanol to complete a combustion cycle, defeating the cost savings of purchasing it.
+There is a 15-5% or less millage loss with E85 with a properly tuned (flexfuel) vehicle, and 50-30% with out the tune, but around my part of town its about a $0.55-$1.00 cheaper than 91 octane fuel (premium here at high altitude) or about 20%+ cheaper meaning that it may be a possible cost savings or at least a wash.

Some (likely biased) Resorces for e85 info:
http://www.ethanolrfa.org/resource/facts/engine/
http://www.change2e85.com/servlet/Page?template=Myths
 
My brother's supercharged Mustang uses E85. You gain more on a boosted car but he gained 20-30 rwhp/rwtq and the car runs cooler. It does start slightly harder, like 2-3 cranks before firing but its not bad.
If you have it readily available and can tune for it I think its a great race fuel at the pump.
Start with about 30% more fuel over gas and custom tune from there, good luck.
-J
 
So it seems as simple as increasing fuel as a baseline, and dyno tune from there? Would this also apply to a boosted contour? I imagine it would be dangerous with more potential lean conditions.

I can't help but think of some advantages here, E85 + non-intercooled NPG turbo kit + tune seems like a potential for more hp on the cheap, well compared to the intercooled kits. I know there is no shortage of HP to tap with a boosted 2.5L or 3L, but this seems like it may make that power more affordable.

Does E85 affect o2 readings adversly, and how to combat this in a tune? I haven't found any evidence of it, but can't help but wonder... Also... would E85 have an impact on a Cat's effectiveness, since the emissions are somewhat different? I'm wondering about p0420/p0430 CELs.

I suppose E85 is a lot more...err...compatible with gasoline than I expected.
 
I believe you need more timing as well ans more fuel.

larger injectors and fuel pump would be a must.

and the system has to be compatible with E-85 as it will absorb water and degrade fittings but most of this stuff should be upgraded when adding a turbo and with the cost per gallon vs octane rating definately cool.
 
dont forget that the increased ethanol in E85 means that it will eat through seals and other rubber components in our fuel systems since they werent designed for it.
 
You are forcing me back many years but let me toss in a few things about ethanol.

Needs more fuel in the A/F ratio, so everything needed to support more fuel must be in place. In carbed engines, that was lines, pumps, and carb jets (if you could get the jets big enough so sometimes you needed an ethanol specific carb).

Little or no vapor pressure, so engine was harder to start, especially in colder weather.

The earlier mentioned compatibility issues with fuel handling materials.

Higher octane rating, allowing for increased cylinder pressures (more ignition timing, higher compression, or more boost).

Ignition advance curve a little tricky, as it didn't like too much advance at idle and low RPM. Advance curves needed a lot of attention, not just adding 5 or 10 degrees overall.

The vapor pressure issue is somewhat alleviated by adding 15% gasoline. Not entirely though. Somewhat the same issue using Aviation Gas for street or track fuel in that airplanes can't have fuel with ANY vapor pressure or they act up at altitude. Gas powered airplanes have fuel heaters to help them start in cold weather.

If you are building an engine specifically for use with ethanol, or E85 only for that matter, you can and should allow for the higher octane with higher compression and/or boost. You will probably need higher flowing injectors. And then you will need a lot of time to dial in the fuel and ignition maps. This will go faster on a dyno. There is no reason NOT to use an intercooler. As to if the fuel system materials are up to the task, I think they would be, but it is a gamble. It was methanol and M85 that is very decidedly agressive on fuel handling materials. Ethanol not so much.

As to if it is worth the effort, that is up to you to decide. I'm not sure the effort will provide enough return. Now tip in some nitromethane and we're talking a different language.
 
here's a basic fact that everyone overlooks..... higher octane use is for detonation resistance.

its' also cheap. you can (in theory) run a higher octane for high compression, or boost. its more a necessity than a desire in cars with "lower" compression (street engines in general)

but when you boost, you build heat. the E85 runs cooler in a burn and therefore makes more power, and its detonation resistance is great because it burns so late. its a decent alternative but i don't call it the best option.
 
Needs more fuel in the A/F ratio, so everything needed to support more fuel must be in place.
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This doesn't seem to be unreasonable.

Little or no vapor pressure, so engine was harder to start, especially in colder weather.
Click to expand...
This would be an issue for me in Colorado's climate... but would it be safe to run a with a higher percentage of gasoline during cold months, or would this justify a second tune?

The earlier mentioned compatibility issues with fuel handling materials.
Click to expand...
This almost seems irrelevant anymore. in newer cars anyway. I'd like to see evidence of damaged fuel system components due to E85, Just to prove the point.

Higher octane rating, allowing for increased cylinder pressures (more ignition timing, higher compression, or more boost).
Click to expand...
This is my point for unlocking more potential with out spending big bucks in trade for some more labor to make necessary adjustments.

Ignition advance curve a little tricky, as it didn't like too much advance at idle and low RPM. Advance curves needed a lot of attention, not just adding 5 or 10 degrees overall.
Click to expand...
This is understandable given the burn rate of ethanol is much slower. Speaking of which, would this slower burn rate affect running at high RPM?

The vapor pressure issue is somewhat alleviated by adding 15% gasoline. Not entirely though. Somewhat the same issue using Aviation Gas for street or track fuel in that airplanes can't have fuel with ANY vapor pressure or they act up at altitude. Gas powered airplanes have fuel heaters to help them start in cold weather.
Click to expand...
I wonder if such a thing would be reasonable to retrofit, if it is decided it will be a problem to start in cold weather. My first impression is no.

Now tip in some nitromethane and we're talking a different language.
Click to expand...
Lol, I'd pee if I seen that at the pump!

The hybrid motors seem to be the best candidates for E85 since the turbo guys have no problem making power.

I'm thinking one of the Hybrid 3L guys needs to get a tune, a tank of E85, then visit a dyno and report the findings.:laugh: (i don't think E85 is a magical power adder, but certainly opens a door of potential)

My SVT is in pieces in my garage right now, and an E85 conversion doesn't seem to be a huge inconvenience...so far.
 
42# Lightning injectors, SCT tuner for an E85 tune and a pump gas tune if you get stuck and a non-intercooled turbo kit is a very good bang for the buck.
My brother only had harder starts in the later fall/early spring.
Also there are many vehicles that are flexfuel and run E85 year-round, you can check E85 sites to see when your area changes to 'winter-blend' or about E70 I believe.
If I could get it here easily in PA I'd run it on my Mustang.
-J
 
hylix said:
This would be an issue for me in Colorado's climate... but would it be safe to run a with a higher percentage of gasoline during cold months, or would this justify a second tune?



I wonder if such a thing would be reasonable to retrofit, if it is decided it will be a problem to start in cold weather. My first impression is no.
Click to expand...

If you changed the ethanol to gasoline ratio you would need a new tune. E85 cars have a further advantage in that they have a sensor that tells the computer what the actual ratio is and adjusts accordingly. You can have any blend between E0 and E85. A block heater may help as it does with a diesel.

I don't think a retrofit fuel heater would be practical but I have never studied it. It would have been handy when I had too much av-gas in my tank when the weather turned cold. I got it started with ether.
 
contourspd98 said:
PM Rawburt. His evo runs on E85.
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No discuss it here for everyone :shrug:
I helped my brother convert his Mustang to E85, not really much to it and most of what you need to know is being discussed here.
Plus his Mustang is faster than Rawburt's Evo :laugh: (j/k I like the Evo alot)
-J
 
hylix said:
The hybrid motors seem to be the best candidates for E85 since the turbo guys have no problem making power.

I'm thinking one of the Hybrid 3L guys needs to get a tune, a tank of E85, then visit a dyno and report the findings.:laugh: (i don't think E85 is a magical power adder, but certainly opens a door of potential).
Click to expand...

If I weren't trying to sell my car, I'd definitely look into this. I'm assuming that the bump in compression from 2000 MY SVTs came from the heads, so my Hyrbid should be 11.5:1 compression in theory. If I need 30% more fuel, but my tune is already 11.2 AFR, all I'd really need to do is bump up the timing and add maybe a tiny bit of fuel. I've already got a 255 lph FSVT fuel pump and 42# Terminator injectors. Makes me wish that I had the PRP for my XCAL.
 
Anyone have any clue if the focus 255 l/h fuel pump is the same one they use in the FFV Focus? or what the specs are for the FFV focus pump?
Walbro states their pumps are not safe for E85. I have a hard time believing it though.

This seems to be the only fuel handling materials issue I cannot nail down as safe or not.
 
I used to work for walbro and there are differences between the FF pumps and the regular pumps. I could try and ask someone that still works there for a part number you could buy. You don't really need a 255lph a 190lph should be more than enough.
 
Well I emailed some one and they got back to me. He didn't think they sell any aftermarket and the regular pump wouldn't last to long. He also mentioned the level sensor will probably quickly die. You might want to try and get a FF pump and level sensor from a FFV Tauras but I'm not sure it would supply enough fuel for a turbo 3.0. You could also try and find some truck FFV pumps and see if they could work. Those should supply enough fuel. Good luck.
 
I think the FF 3.0 is the vulcan not the duratec much less fuel needed for that weak engine.
 
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