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All-out N/A WHP. guesses?

Plenum is still small on the 3L plastic UIM. Other designs which include the ST220 are much better because of the increased plenum volume.

I was referring to the 3L split port UIM for split port engines. Again, the 2.5L UIM is a package compromise from the beginning. A fully EH 2.5L allows for increased plenum, which is why it has such a significant improvement. Save the money and mod a 3L to go on.

The original Porsche proto 2.5L UIM. Notice the larger plenums.
 

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Plenum is still small on the 3L plastic UIM. Other designs which include the ST220 are much better because of the increased plenum volume.

I was referring to the 3L split port UIM for split port engines. Again, the 2.5L UIM is a package compromise from the beginning. A fully EH 2.5L allows for increased plenum, which is why it has such a significant improvement. Save the money and mod a 3L to go on.

The original Porsche proto 2.5L UIM. Notice the larger plenums.

You know, I used to agree with this theory on the SVT plenum being too small, but after reviewing some data with a couple of Ford engineers that have more Duratec dyno time each than anyone else in the world, I've changed my mind. I still don't agree with dumping a split port manifold into a plain oval port though, but whatever.

And the main reason for the greater power from the ST220 manifold is due to the runner design moreso than the plenum size, because the later escape manifold has roughly the same size plenum and makes less power.
 
Care to elaborate?

Would love to, but the data I've seen is proprietary to Ford Engineering, and I can't share it.

But, I will say that Ford didn't implement the oval port for better performance by any stretch of the imagination; it was implemented because it was something on the order of a $40 per engine cost save, which is an epic level of savings on an existing engine (Think $40 x up to 2 million engines per year). In addition to that there were a lot of issues with the IMRCs gunking up on automatic cars, because they were rarely driven at engine speeds / throttle positions over the IMRC opening thresholds.
 
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While it may be cheaper to produce, the oval port design is much better than it's predocessor. The velocity profile is much better with oval ports as well as better combustion efficency since the fuel is dispersed between two valves instead of one.

This has been the norm for many years. Prostock has moved to oval ports. F1 has used the oval design for years as well as many OEM's abroad.
 
While it may be cheaper to produce, the oval port design is much better than it's predocessor.

What criteria are you basing this call on? Power output? Cost? Manufacturing? Torque output? weight?

The velocity profile is much better with oval ports

What velocity profile? Across the port at a given rpm? Maybe at one fixed engine rpm it might be better, but I guarantee the split port will show better velocity in much more of the rpm band than the oval port, all while providing a greater total flow capacity.

as well as better combustion efficency since the fuel is dispersed between two valves instead of one.

How do you figure? I don't recall ever seeing anyone have issues with combustion efficiency in any of the split port engines. Even if the oval port is slightly better here, its an academic point, since the difference isn't great enough to significantly affect the engine performance. The only thing you can say for certainty regarding injectors for each port style, is that you should be using the appropriate injector spray pattern for each one. A single spray pattern for the split port, and a two spray pattern for the oval port so all the fuel doesn't end up on the bridge between the valves. FWIW, it is FAR easier to find a single spray pattern injector in larger than stock sizes than it is to find the split pattern ones . . .

This has been the norm for many years. Prostock has moved to oval ports. F1 has used the oval design for years as well as many OEM's abroad.

Apples and oranges much? An 18k rpm F1 engine obviously has EXACTLY the same design considerations as our 6800rpm duratecs . . . F1 engines idle near our redline rpms . . . They are simply after port area, it would be more like taking the larger spread of the split port head and milling out everything in between the two ports to make as much area as possible. Not exactly the best thing for low rpm velocity and cylinder filling.


I'm sick of the blind bandwagon gang on this one. The oval port manifolds are good designs within thier design envelope, and they have had decent amount of development (and Ford isn't done with them either . . .) but they really were implemented just to save money (trust me, I've asked some of the guys that actually did the design work). This cheaper oval port design was optimized for the applications it was to be used in, which is a mid-size sedan or small SUV attached to an auto trans, which means solid mid-low range torque at the expense of peak power. If this is what you are looking for, then yes, by all means this is the best design for you. The ST220 wanted to be optimized a little better for peak hp, while compromising as little as possible in the mid-low range of torque, which is how it ended up with shorter but more tapered runners.

And in regards to the Porsche manifold on the early development 2.5L engines, I'm not convinced the manifold really had much to do with the difference in power output. I believe it had more to do with cam profiles and calibration, and other extensive differences in the engine than the intake manifold plenums. In fact, I think that the Porsche design just may have hindered high rpm flow in the short runners with the placement of the plug wire holes. Look at the pic again, and see how they shroud much of the entry area for each of the short runners. Further, the plenums are flatter and extend further away from the ports rather than being larger around the runner entry points. Hardly showstopping, but not perfectly ideal either. Further, the larger plenum, plus the plug access holes would wreak havoc on any helmholtz tuning, as the pressure waves would never reflect back to thier original ports.

All of the duratec manifold designs are actually pretty good when considered with thier original design compromises, and for us, as enthusiasts, about the worst thing we could do is put a split port manifold over the top of an oval port head without keeping the flow divided all the way down to the valves; And even that really isn't that bad as shown by the number of people on here that have done it in order to make the 3L swap easier for them to manage. Even these engines make good power and torque across the rev range.

All this straining back and forth over what amounts to relatively minor variations in performance; the kind where you'd really have to run a number of each style to get a statistically significant sample to really understand exactly what the real differences are where they aren't clouded by outside factors such as dyno to dyno variation, driveline losses variation, tire pressure variation, etc. etc.
 
No apples to oranges comparison when looking at velocity profiles, unless of different port shapes.

F1 after port area? Hardly. Fill a cylinder in the time frame thay have to. Less time than a camera shutter!

Combustion efficiency is better. X amount of fuel spread between a larger area in the port ('pre mix'). Where as X amount of fuel in one port, then forced to mix properly in the CC. Not as efficient as the earlier mentioned method. There is good and there is better.

No resonating effect or confused reflections? Why did they bother with the runner lengths then?

Blind follower? You are a bit one sided yourself in that you only look at one side of the story (what Ford says). Physics tells other wise.

There are many abroad that will tell you the same as I have said on port design and combustion. Don't see many split port engines in F1, prostock, Nascar, or any level of motorsports racing recently, do you? I'm not giving attitude, just fact.

We'll have to agree to disagree then. Except on the oval to split conversion, in which I whole heartedly agree with you.
 
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No apples to oranges comparison when looking at velocity profiles, unless of different port shapes.

F1 after port area? Hardly. Fill a cylinder in the time frame thay have to. Less time than a camera shutter!

Combustion efficiency is better. X amount of fuel spread between a larger area in the port ('pre mix'). Where as X amount of fuel in one port, then forced to mix properly in the CC. Not as efficient as the earlier mentioned method. There is good and there is better.

No resonating effect or confused reflections? Why did they bother with the runner lengths then?

Blind follower? You are a bit one sided yourself in that you only look at one side of the story (what Ford says). Physics tells other wise.

There are many abroad that will tell you the same as I have said on port design and combustion. Don't see many split port engines in F1, prostock, Nascar, or any level of motorsports racing recently, do you? I'm not giving attitude, just fact.

We'll have to agree to disagree then. Except on the oval to split conversion, in which I whole heartedly agree with you.

I'm sorry, what were your qualifications again? Are you a ME specializing in engine design and development? Do you have close ties to people who do?

Or are you just using available-to-any-schmo engine software?
 
You'll never find a split port in racing because they don't care about powerband nearly as much as a road car.

To compare split port to oval w/o the tuning lengths a factor you'd have to make a new manifold with equal length port for both splits.

This basically defeats the purpose and makes for a much more costly casting which is probably why ford thought it was not necessary with going to a 3L and they loved the cost savings.
 
I'm sorry, what were your qualifications again? Are you a ME specializing in engine design and development? Do you have close ties to people who do?

Or are you just using available-to-any-schmo engine software?

Since when does one have to be an engineer by trade to understand the same physics? That is what it is after all, no? Have I offended you because I don't subscribe to the 'ego'? It seems since I don't go by just what one person or source says, I'm wrong. My mistake, you're always right and I'm always wrong since you appear to be the engineer.

I'm not an engineer and I don't have friends in the OEM. A lot of my research in engine dynamics comes from the same textbooks that the engineer learned from. I get more in depth, current info. from credible sources elsewhere (engine builders, cylinder head porters, and credible technical magazines and papers). A manufacturer is not the only credible source of information.

I use a program that does a numerous amount of calculations for me, the same calcs in the books. Saves a bit of time!

On a less hostile note;

Rara,

While the switch may have been made to save costs, the port design in general is better from my point of view. Combustion effciency is better as well because of better mixture homogenity from the 'pre mix'. I see this as why no multivalve cylinder heads use split ports anymore. Other sources feel the same way.

It would seem that the earlier oval manifold runners are poorer than the later because of inconsistant runner shape, thus pressure gradient across the CSA. It's more apparent why the ST220 and later oval manifolds perform much better than their earlier counterparts because of shape. The increased plenum is an added benefit for more airflow capacity up top.

I see the 2.5L manifolds as not having sufficient plenum volume. Larger throttles may counteract this to an extent but I feel they are undersized.

The oval setups have more room to grow, provided parts availability. The splitport engines have a 'hot' cam profile available at low cost where as the ovals do not.

Again, we will have to agree to disagree on my above points if that is the case. I'm not getting drug into another useless pissing match.
 
Rereading my post;

I'm not saying the split port design is horrible by any means. Just that the oval offers some better qualities. While the switch may not have been made on these intentions, there are added benefits.
 
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this is the last time i ask a simple question.... now it's an all out battle about the CFM's and what not. i'm using a stock SVT intake manifold. can we get back to teh power estimates, or even better yet, dyno plots from other N/A cars?
 
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