$50 for a tank of gas!

[mrspindlelegs]

$500 Beater > $12000+ Vdub

I've been down that road before so I can quote from experience when I say "you're wrong".

 

[Pole120]

I've been down that road before so I can quote from experience when I say "you're wrong".

Then you and I have had different experiences. I've got a complete Excel program set up for every fill up and the Festiva paid itself off in just over 4 months of gas savings driving it to work and back in place of my SVT. How am I wrong? No several hundred dollar car payment very month, no interest on a loan, paid with cash. I don't have to pay for full coverage on the Festiva(required for a car purchased on a loan) which in itself saves me a ton every month because i insure several vehicles on top of the Festiva. How long would i take me to recoup from the purchase price, cost to insure and cost to maintain a modern VW? Keep in mind i can do all the work required on the Festiva myself, parts are CHEAP and plentiful, and with few options and a bare bones design there is VERY little to go wrong. Not to mention with the rear seats removed as i have done i can haul more than you can fathom in your VW.

Oh, and call me when your VW goes over 500k miles with only minor regular maintanance, it's been done more than you'd think on the Festiva boards.

~Josh

 

[Suba Blu]

Werd. It's just the ebrake. Not like you need it to drive the car. Ha I know Cegers that removed theirs altogether. LOL!

I know.. I could just park in gear like I always do anyways... its just nice to have one that really works... plus the handle snapped all the way back one day and I couldnt get my ebrake boot to stay down anymore..

I just want everything on my car to function and work properly. I guess the metal tab snapped completely off of the handle... the full assembly is 125.00 but the rest is all labor. I've heard that its a complete beotch to swap out.. all the exhaust shielding needs to be dropped and whatnot so it can be bolted into the car and the cables attached.

 

[Thinkmoto]

You don't have to get a "go-cart/death trap" to get excellent fuel economy. Just by a Volkswagen Diesel with a stick shift. My 2004 Golf GLS typically gets 46 - 48 mpg from 80% Hwy/ 20% City driving. If I'm fighting strong headwinds or massive amounts of snow, the worst I've seen is 44 mpg. Best I've ever seen was 50.1 mpg. The Golf is a bit over 3000 lbs and is very safe.

Its hard to find VW diesels cheap. And the high maintenance on them sucks. Trust me I researched them awhile back when i was driving 120 miles a day to work and back. I got 40+mpg with the "del sol" fetivas are cheap and available. Like pole I'd rather buy a cheap ****box and not have payments and high insurance. ****box's are more fun anyways you can hit stuff with them and not worry about scratching the bumper/ fenders etc.

 

[mrspindlelegs]

Then you and I have had different experiences. I've got a complete Excel program set up for every fill up and the Festiva paid itself off in just over 4 months of gas savings driving it to work and back in place of my SVT. How am I wrong? No several hundred dollar car payment very month, no interest on a loan, paid with cash. I don't have to pay for full coverage on the Festiva(required for a car purchased on a loan) which in itself saves me a ton every month because i insure several vehicles on top of the Festiva. How long would i take me to recoup from the purchase price, cost to insure and cost to maintain a modern VW? Keep in mind i can do all the work required on the Festiva myself, parts are CHEAP and plentiful, and with few options and a bare bones design there is VERY little to go wrong. Not to mention with the rear seats removed as i have done i can haul more than you can fathom in your VW.

Oh, and call me when your VW goes over 500k miles with only minor regular maintanance, it's been done more than you'd think on the Festiva boards.

~Josh

Well, I should elaborate further on why I took the position that I did.

My experience is based on purchasing 4 cars in the < $500 range and all of them suffered catastrophic failure in < 12 months; 3 major engine failures and 1 autotrans failure + other crap. The failures were not due to any hard driving or neglect on my part. I did as thorough of a checkout as was reasonable without actually tearing the drivetrain apart before making the purchases. When I expand the experiences to $1000 or less, that makes 5 total cars and that one extra was a good one. In total, I've owned 10 cars over a 27 year period and the blatant duds were all in the super cheap beater category. When I spent a bit more money, the cars I was able to afford were in better shape and lasted a lot longer such that in most cases, they averaged out to the price of some of the beater cars on a pro-rated basis. Two cars that lasted a lot longer did well but did "collapse" at the very end due to rust (I try to drive just about every car in the ground). Of the more expensive 5 cars I've had, the only questionable car has been the Contour SVT at this time. The best cars I've ever owned so far have been the 1995 Contour SE and the 2004 VW Golf TDI.

Your position is based on just a "one-car" example; this is known as insufficient statistical data. I'm not wishing any bad luck on you whatsoever on the beater that you secured at a great price. It is awesome when anything can be found at an extremely cheap price that lasts and can demonstrate the ability to pay for itself. I am particularly surprised that someone sold such a fuel efficient car at such a cheap price given gas prices these days. Is there a "special connection" you're not telling us about?

One thing I must concede is that my experiences are more jaded because I'm pretty sure I'm a bit older than you (saw your picture at Cardomain and my guess is I could be as much as 20 years older than you). The beater cars that were available to me when I was a youth were made in the 1960s and 1970s; an era when quality was a joke and even the Japanese were crap. There were no really fuel efficient cars to be had at beater prices back in the days of the Iranian Revolution. The quality of cars available to you is superior to what was available to me; especially in engine machining tolerances and the corrosion protection department.

As for the Golf exceeding 500,000 miles, it is easily possible due to the diesel drivetrain & glavanized body but I don't know if it will happen under my ownership. The Peak Oil effect and other economic black clouds will probably manifest themselves before I get there. I suspect economic forces will arise that will force me to jump to another car assuming cars with significantly higher fuel efficiency will be available. Do you think the CEG website will still be for both of us to compare notes should we both make it?

Two things jump out to me as sounding like something is wrong:

1. It took only 4 months for the fuel efficiency of the Festiva vs. the SVT to give you the $500 savings that you paid for the car? Sounds like you could save a lot more money by moving closer to work. However, if work is in the worst neighborhood in town, I grant you a reprieve (LOL). My place of employment is in a pretty bad section of town. I've collected > 60 bullets off the roof and parking lot over the last 9.5 years. A 357 came flying through the window during the workshift about 8 years ago.

2. What do you mean when you say that your Festive can haul more than my Golf. Are you telling me that the back seats of the Golf are rigidly welded-in? NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

Mr. Spindlelegs

 

[mrspindlelegs]

Its hard to find VW diesels cheap. And the high maintenance on them sucks. Trust me I researched them awhile back when i was driving 120 miles a day to work and back. I got 40+mpg with the "del sol" fetivas are cheap and available. Like pole I'd rather buy a cheap ****box and not have payments and high insurance. ****box's are more fun anyways you can hit stuff with them and not worry about scratching the bumper/ fenders etc.

Used VW Diesels are pricey for the following reasons:

1. Enormous fuel economy.

2. VW Diesels are incredibly durable.

3. They are not allowed to be sold new in CARB states but as soon as they exceed 7,500 miles, they are classified as "used" and can then be purchased in CARB states. People in the CARB states help drive the demand for used diesels, especially in California. Think of it as "You pay more up front but your depreciation is much less in the long run".

4. The biggest driving force in expensive insurance on VW diesels is not because of the car/model. The insurance will be more expensive if you need collision coverage but moreso because of your age and driving record. If you are still in the 25-and-under crowd, insurance is damned expensive even with a clean record. The State you live in may also have significant bearing on insurance prices; New Jersey is a good example of very expensive insurance.

5. What high maintenance? The only thing unique about the 2004 Golf TDI is the timing belt service at 90,000 miles. Otherwise, oil changes are every 10,000 miles. The synthetic oil is unique to this car and costs $6.70/quart. However, a typical Castrol 5W-30 costs ~ $3.25/quart these days and if you change the oil at intervals of < 5,000 miles, you will lose on the money and labor end (Note: Golf TDI requires 4.5 - 4.75 quarts of oil). The fuel filter has to be changed every 20,000 miles but they are relatively cheap when purchased aftermarket. Perhaps there is more maintenance on pre-2004 VW Diesels that I am unaware of. My research found that going for the 2004 Pumpe-Deuse Diesel Engine was the smart way to go due to problems that were fixed relative to earlier models. The PD motors do not appear to be suffering from intake manifold clog like the 2003 and earlier models. If they do have this problem, it's taking a lot longer to rear its head so far.

I do concede that there will be some parts on VWs that will be pricey that fall outside of normal maintenance. If an electronic part such as a circuit board in the dash fails, be ready to bend over big time if you have to go to the stealership. I did accidentally slam my elbow into the armrest way too hard and broke the hinge on the cover. The Stealership wants $220. Forget that. Time to go to the junkyard or engage in a heinous act of backyard engineering.

Your mention of not worrying about scratches, dings, and dents on cars is a very valid point for buying a beater if you live in an apartment complex. There are so many neighbors who park too close, don't watch what they are doing with their car doors, and their kids will scratch the crap out of everything. My 95 Contour SE really got scratched to death when living at apartments.

Ah well. As I said to Pole120 in the previous post, I do wish you good luck in owing a beater. I've just had too much bad luck trying to cut corners that way.

Mr. Spindlelegs

 

[Thinkmoto]

A beater to me isdifferent then a beater to you or pole. My CSVT was my "beater" for 2 years. I'm not going to spend $$$$ on VW why such the huge bicker fest about them? You an employee of VW?

 

[mrspindlelegs]

A beater to me isdifferent then a beater to you or pole. My CSVT was my "beater" for 2 years. I'm not going to spend $$$$ on VW why such the huge bicker fest about them? You an employee of VW?

I wished both Pole120 and yourself well with your choice of how you chosse cars vs. mine. That seemed like the conclusion to any bickering for me.

The only reason for my longer replys was I looked at our initial exchanges and they were too short by all parties; they didn't really tell a full enough story on why we feel the way we do. Extremely short, terse replys don't foster any learning on anybody's part.

Mr. Spindlelegs

 

[Pole120]

The only reason for my longer replys was I looked at our initial exchanges and they were too short by all parties; they didn't really tell a full enough story on why we feel the way we do. Extremely short, terse replys don't foster any learning on anybody's part.

Agreed, i will provide you with a proper reply with documentation backing my statements as soon as I'm able....

FWIW, there is nothing anything I'm not telling you on my part. I searched for the car i bought knowing full well it's abilities and durability with regards to dependability and fuel economy. I didn't just got find a $500 beater car, i was particular about it and searched for 6 month to find the car i was looking for. A Festiva, in decent shape, mechanically sound for $500 or less. Having two cars gave the me luxury of taking the time to be particular in my selection, and it's worked out in my favor up to this point. There was also another reputable CEGer with me when i went to pick up the car that can echo my statements to a "T".

 

[SVTJON87]

Ive been told this gas price spike is only going to last around 2 months. the oil refineries are still recovering from the damage in the south. and driving season has started. once the refineries get up to full production the price will settle back down.

 

[00SVTGA]

you just wait till premium hits $4.00 a gal . then you'll really be crying

 

[FrostCougar]

Yeah seriously, that $4 mark is coming soon.

Ima buy me a bicycle, no lie.