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swapping to gutted LIM....

you really have no idea what your talking about.

if your dyno sheets showed gains, your car has fuel curve issues, or timing issues.

the only way to get a gain out of having no secondaries is to gain volume in the LIM by taking out the secondary butterflies and the shafts.

if you hold them open, its just like normally being over 4000 rpm on the car... you just lose the low end torque the secondaries were put there to gain.

if you gut the secondaries, you lose the low end, but you gain the flow of the lower intake by removing the shafts and butterflies that take up tons of area in the LIM. your "dyno proof" holds no water. hold your secondaries open all you want. your car will throw a code and it will pull timing, and make your car sluggish. it would take more than one pull on the engine for the problem to be recognized, and timing to be pullled by the computer. so if you did a pull, then held the secondaries open and did another, that doesn't prove anything.
 
ive data logged my car. i also have a scan too. i also know that the fuel curve and ignition curve is changed when the IMRC isn't working or the code is thrown.

you may have gained 30 HP because your IMRC is weak or not working properly. if your imrc opens too slowly (motor going bad) it will decrease performance, very slightly.

the computer does not add timing when the IMRC is stuck open. it keeps a preset "safe mode" timing and fuel curve. the same thing happens if you unhook your MAF, or disconnect the IMRC.

you think i give bad info? your the one here saying that just sticking your IMRC open will net you a gain. at least i've gone as far as to gut mine and see the difference.

here's my point. to be very clear....

if you gut your intake manifold, or stick your IMRC open, therefore disabling the cables return spring, you will have a CHECK ENGINE LIGHT or at least a TROUBLE CODE. this trouble code, makes your car SLOWER. therefore, RETAIN THE imrc CABLE FUNCTION, if you gut your LIM. that work for you? geez.
 
SicSE said:
Those injectors are why you are running rich - they are 24lb injectors. You must get the worst gas mileage in the history of V6's! :blackeye: Put some 19lb injectors in there. You'll gain power AND fuel economy.
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I can get about 260-310 miles to a tank if I drive like an idiot or like agrandma.

The injectors are green on the tops - and I highly doubt they are 42lbs/hr - so they have to be 19lbs/hr
 
oh, one more thing


BEFORE i gutted my LIM and got a 65MM TB......

my car made 205 WHP 190 TRQ UNTUNED at 10:1 AFR

i think your car has some problems that you still need to find.... so the info you have gotten from your car may not be completely correct if you have a problem you have not yet found.....
 
For what TRicker is interested in, maximizing the amount of air flow through the LIM at high rpms, the only way to test it is by actually gutting it. So I agree with him. Pinning them open won't tell you anything about how much removing them can improve top end flow. The only thing pinning them open could help you with is predicting how it will run under 3500 rpm with them gutted.

I'd say go for it :) If I remember right you were going to experiment with a 3L split port LIM anyways so no loss if it doesn't work out really :cool:
 
SicSE said:
I hear what you're saying, but if your MAFS is matched with your PCM as you say, (both SVT), the ONLY way for you to be running that rich is to have larger injectors than the PCM expects.

A/F richer than 11:1 is plain over-fueling in an N/A engine. Bad for power, but horrible for emissions AND fuel economy. No manufacturer in this day and age would run a PCM fuel strategy that would OVERFUEL at idle & cruise. The ONLY time our PCM's would PURPOSEFULLY provide an A/F that rich is in a potentially engine-damaging situation, (i.e. detonation).
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Well - there could be something wrong, I've got no idea how many check engine lights I've got, but more then 3. I've really got to address those- probably running in limp mode because of the camshaft position sensor check light. I'm done - this is TRicker's thread, my piece of :censored::censored::censored::censored: car runs great, pulls hard and that is fine with me.
 
Hey I know I'm chiming in late. I've been driving my new 3L around for just a few weeks now with a similar setup to where your heading with the possible exception of the exhaust. I've got headers and Y pipe...couldn't tell what your setup is.

I built the motor with no intent to use secondaries and I port matched to gaskets all of the way through. My observations are tainted somewhat in that I'm comparing it to my previous experience with a 2.5L

So with NO secondaries my Butt Dyno says:

Low end (<3500) Great Torque
Mid (3500 to 5000) OK
High End (5000 to 7800) Awesome

My low end is so nice that I drive around starting in 2nd.

As an additional comparison, again just feel, my wife's car is a C230 Kompressor....a car that has something like 200 fp tq at insanely low rpms...the Contour is almost as pleasant to lug around town in, and hell of a lot more fun to rev.
 
IMO, I personally love my gutted LIM over even my Sho Shop lower that I had. Now, my gutted LIM is honed out to Sho Shop specs and has been tuned for it. I still think it needs a touch more of tuning because a good tuner should be able to get you to still have low end torque and pull HARD up top. You still feel the pull at 3500 RPMs, just like you would with the IMRC, but dont have to worry about it failing.
 
sweet. so your LIM has the middle of the split ports removed to match that UIM? that looks sick. i'm going tomorrow to get a split port UIM to slap on, but i don't think it will be that easy. looks like the vaccum hoses will have to be changed up a little, and the EGR tube may have to be re-bent. i'll get another one incase i have to do that.
 
yeah my EGR already has a flanged piece installed, as i have weapon R headers. so i can loosen that fitting and swing the tube a little to orient it the way it needs to be to match up to the EGR fittings on the 3L UIM. hopefully it will be a smooth swap so i can dyno the two with just an hour of dyno time.
 
SicSE said:
The point of propping the butterflies open is to verify gains before spending the time to gut the LIM. Obviously, if you gain by propping the secondaries open, then you know you'll gain even more when you get rid of them completely.
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Incorrect!

How can you verify the gains of "removing" the butterfly rods and plates when the are still there?

How can you verify any gains from removing them without tuning for the fact they are gone? Yes this includes the change in transfer A/F (i.e. rpm) from before to after the OEM IMRC point!

Pinning them open does nothing but alleviate the flutter of the IMRC and the closing it does at part throttle at mid rpm range and lower. This is not a true indication of a setup tuned to run without them and the fact they are actually removed from the airflow.

I loved removing the IMRC components on my hot 2.5L and my current 3L engine. I still would not recommend it to most folks though because tuning for it is not a cut and dry procedure.
 
i did the 3L aluminum split port intake. i still have to port it out i just wanted to try it. i have the EGR deleted with no issues. i left half of the tube on and capped the end so it is still hooked up to the sensor that verifys EGR flow. no check engine lights showed up. the power is great too, i think if i port it out nicely like sicSE's it will be a very nice setup.
 
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