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Preparing for a 3.0L Port-matched swap

TennTechMan

CEG'er
Joined
Dec 18, 2008
Messages
198
Location
Maryville, TN
My brother and I will begin swapping a port-matched 3.0L into his 99 CSVT this weekend. The original plan was to repair the 2.5L, but it's not going to be cheap. He's decided that if he's going to spend the money, why not do a 3L swap? So, the 2.5L is already out and disassembled. We both have been reading up on this swap for a couple of weeks. I feel that we are mostly prepared to do the swap, but there are a few things I'd like to confirm and ask about.

First off, the setup will be a 99 CSVT with a 2004 Taurus VIN S 3.0L port-matched swap. We wanted to do the swap that would be the most "plug-and-play." From what I've read, that seems to be the port-matched option. I understand there is some time in the porting, but I think we can handle it.

So far, we've ordered the motor (should arrive Friday), 3 bugzuki plates, and some MSDS headers. I plan to reassemble the 2.5L crank, block, and heads, and set it up on an engine stand next the the 3.0L on its own engine stand. It seems the idea is to just make the 3.0L look as much like the 2.5L as possible. After reading almost every post in this forum, I think we're ready to start.

I do have a couple of things I'd like to ask about though.

1. We plan to use the 2.5L CSVT cams, chains, and sprockets. Any benefit to just using the cams that are stock in the 3.0L?
2. When using the 2.5 timing components, we should still use the 3.0L's followers and lifters, correct?
3. Since we're doing a port-match, we can use the 2.5L's fuel system unchanged, correct?
4. This car will eventually be tuned, but the current plan is to drive it with a stock tune temporarilly. Any problem with that? Do many people do this permanently?
5. I think I can probably find my answer to this one by searching some more, but I should use the 2.5L's oil pan, baffle, and pick-up tube, correct? I've seen a lot of talk about these engines starving for oil. Just want to make sure I'm covered there.

I'm sure more questions will come up as we start swapping parts onto the 3L, so you might be seeing my name around here a lot. At least in the short term. Seach nazi's, don't worry, I'll do my best to search for answers before posting up about every little speedbump we run into. I'll try to only post unique questions and contributions. Either way, I'll be posting up some pics and vids of the results.

If there is a end-all, blue-print, can-follow-it-exactly write up of swapping in the 3.0L portmatched engine into a E1 CSVT, please point me in the right direction.

Thanks in advance.
 
I'll respond even though I have not done this swap yet. Those that have performed the swap may have more pertinent comments.

1. The SVT cams should provide more power and the SVT PCM is a better match for those cams. The SVT cams provide a broad torque band. They also have very slightly less power at lower rpm but more at higher rpm. If you like lots of low end torque and don't mind that the show is over earlier than the SVT cams then the stock 3.0 cams are for you.

2. It is best to use the same cam followers that have been running on the cam. This is less of a problem with roller followers. If you want to use the newer 3.0 followers it is probably OK, but in my mind not preferred.

3. Yes, you don't need to change the fuel system. Keep the SVT injectors. They will handle the 3.0. If you use the Taurus injectors, you will need to get a tune immediately. Also, the SVT injector spray pattern is a better match for the port matched engine.

4. It will run reasonably well without a tune, but a tune will really bring it to life.

5. The Contour oil pan is not the preferred pan. The preferred pan is an Escape pan, which is currently the factory service replacement pan. The Taurus pan can be used, and is preferred to the Contour pan, but there are two bolt holes missing so you will need to assemble it without or drill and tap the pan to match the Contour or Escape pan. Whatever pan you use, you should use its matching oil pick-up. I think the Contour pick-up can be used with the Escape pan, but I'm not sure. The Taurus pan must use the Taurus pick-up.

You have the right attitude. Search to learn what you can, and then ask if you still have questions.

Enjoy your project.
 
1. I have been told that the '04 and '05 taurus 3L are best left alone when it comes to the cams and timing equipment. It has been stated that the TQ and HP curves are not significant enough for the extra work involved to switch the SVT components over to the 3L. I personally have an untuned ported '05 3L with my stock 17# injectors and stock tune.

Sell the SVT cams to recover some of the build cost.

2. no comment if using 3L timing

3. yes, ported 3L's uses stock fuel delivery system with the SVT injectors (19#). Some people upgrade the injectors to 21#? or 24#? when they tune for optimal running conditions so they don't "lean out" at high RPMs.

4. yes, you can run it on stock tune, but like stated above, a tune will bring it to life and really plan to have this done. You might run rich on the low end and lean on the top. Keep the RPMs low and don't hammer on it until it is tuned. Start setting $ aside for a dyno for a baseline grid and money for the SCT setup.

5. whichever pan you use, also use the matching pickup tube. The upgraded pan is only to help in the oil starvation, the 2.5L heads were more of the issue not letting the oil back into the pan fast enough.


good luck, and make sure you put your pulse wheel on correctly ;)
 
1. I have been told that the '04 and '05 taurus 3L are best left alone when it comes to the cams and timing equipment. It has been stated that the TQ and HP curves are not significant enough for the extra work involved to switch the SVT components over to the 3L.

I've seen this argued both ways.

I'm a sucker for high rpm power; however, I understand that area under the horsepower curve and torque are really what determine how powerful a car is, not just a peak number. Would the SVT cams have more potential after being tuned than the stock cams? I'm leaning towards using the SVT cams, but if someone has a strong arguement not to, I'm listening.

If using the stock cams (from the 3.0L), does the pulse wheel or anything else (sensors, etc) related to cam timing need to be modified? I do still need the SVT timing cover and valve cover, correct?

good luck, and make sure you put your pulse wheel on correctly ;)

Thanks for the luck and the advice. We will be triple checking that the pulse wheel is on correctly.
 
One for the porting and the other two for the install silly, we all don't have a steady hand like you :D.
 
1. I have been told that the '04 and '05 taurus 3L are best left alone when it comes to the cams and timing equipment. It has been stated that the TQ and HP curves are not significant enough for the extra work involved to switch the SVT components over to the 3L. I personally have an untuned ported '05 3L with my stock 17# injectors and stock tune.

Sell the SVT cams to recover some of the build cost.

This is my plan, as I have a worsening top-end "wobble" rather than knock and would prefer not to use any of the current engine. Also, '04s seem to be in abundance. My only question was whether or not the IMRC would get wonky with the Taurus cams?


3. yes, ported 3L's uses stock fuel delivery system with the SVT injectors (19#). Some people upgrade the injectors to 21#? or 24#? when they tune for optimal running conditions so they don't "lean out" at high RPMs.

What do these injectors come off of?

good luck, and make sure you put your pulse wheel on correctly ;)

Man that thing scares me.
 
Man that thing scares me.

Someone else has had my 2.5L motor out, and taken apart. It's never run since the rebuild, so I don't trust that it is in the correct position now.

Should the actual pulse wheel from the 3.0L be used or the 2.5L? I haven't taken the 3.0L apart yet, so it might be obvious at that point.
 
Someone else has had my 2.5L motor out, and taken apart. It's never run since the rebuild, so I don't trust that it is in the correct position now.

Should the actual pulse wheel from the 3.0L be used or the 2.5L? I haven't taken the 3.0L apart yet, so it might be obvious at that point.


Use the 3.0 pulse wheel just pull it off and swap it to the other position then you are set you must use the 2.5 front cover you will see why when the taurs motor shows up. I love my 04 taurus cams with my port matched setup I don't notice any power fade at the top end and it has tons of useable torque down low and I don't have a tune.....

don't risk running mis matched cam items just keep the low mileage taurs parts that are matched and installed from ford.. you won't miss the SVT cams or the work involved in the swap.

good luck porting is not bad with the right bit it goes quickly with the wrong bit it will go slower than a snail.

I used the taurus pan as well.... I never even removed it.... just stuck the block plate on and marked the two holes (kinda crude but works)

the reason to change the cam covers is because of the coil mount and the IMRC controler mount along with the front plastic cover mounts and they are already painted black (taurus are bare aluminum) I.E you can have a stock looking motor when you are done no one will know the difference unless you tell them.... good for insurance and state inspections if you have them
 
I love my 04 taurus cams with my port matched setup I don't notice any power fade at the top end and it has tons of useable torque down low and I don't have a tune.....

Thanks for the help and the encouragement.

I don't want to discount your opinion, but have you driven or riden in a port-matched setup with SVT cams? If they're available, I'd love to see some hp curves for each configuration.
 
I used the SVT cams. If you are thinking about using the Taurus cams you should measure the lobe on the cams. A while back we did some comparisons and found that the Taurus cams lobes did not extend as far as the SVT lobes. Equals more valve openning with the SVT Cams. I am not remembering if there was a change in later years though.

I am happy with the SVT cams. I only notice a lag down low every once in a while. And it is nice that the car accelerates hard upto Red line instead of tapering off. I have seen that in a lot of cars. In mine it just feels that it accelerates harder all the way up.

I do not have any dyno runs though, so it is all hear say.

If you use the SVT pickup tube you will need to replace some crank bolts. They are torque to yeild. The Taurus studs are in different locations. I hear that the Escape pickup tube mounts in the same location as the Taurus tube, so that might be a better option. I went for the Escape pan.
 
1) If I remember correctly about the post Bugzuki is speaking of, I believe the difference in cam lobe was substantial between the svt cams and the 01'-03' cams. It was very, very close (if not one of the measurements was even the same maybe?) for the svt to the 04'-05' 3L cams. I went with the 3L cams as I didn't see the value of ... risking incorrect timing + extra work to = more power over 6,200 rpm. This was my first swap though too.

2) In my opinion, another reason to use the 3L cams + timing parts. The more kept the way ford designed it, likely the more relaible and long lasting it will be.

3) No need to change the fuel system if staying with the 2.5L LIM & UIM. In fact, when you unbolt the LIM you don't even need to disconnect everything. Just leave it all together and swing it out of the way. Makes it much easier when you are putting everything back together and just want to be done!

4) The more mods you make, the more you are changing it from it's original setup. Get a tune asap and don't drive it too hard until you do. The cost of the tune will repay itself in longevity and reliability.

5) Escape pan is the most "ideal". It is the newest design and has the baffles to help the oil from moving to "one side". You would have the newer style Taurus pan and be running 2 bolts down. Nobody has had a problem with this yet. Most who use the Taurus pan use a little extra oil. Don't take right hand sweeping turns to fast (on ramps) and put yourself in an opportunity to have "starvation". I plan on adding the escape pan in the spring as it's pretty easy to swap out.

A suggestion ... if you can afford to, pick up a DMD pulley (Dual Mass Damper). It makes the engine smoother above 4k and couldn help extend engine life by reducing vibrations and helping prevent spinning a rod bearing. It is also a lot easier to do now than down the road. NOTE: Mazda used the same DMD on the Mazda 6's as the one you want. Call a salvage yard and see if they have one. I believe it was 2001'-08', but I know for sure from 03'-08'. I got mine for $47.

Of and course ... don't forget to change the pulse wheel :laugh:.

Good luck. If I did it, you can too :eek:.
 
Save yourself the time porting and do an oval port :laugh:. You'll have a faster car that way.
 
I used the SVT cams.

the car accelerates hard upto Red line instead of tapering off. I have seen that in a lot of cars. In mine it just feels that it accelerates harder all the way up.


This is what I would expect.

I'll be sure to measure both cams when they show up. I won't be just measuring them with a set of calipers though. Assuming I get some extra time at work next week, I'll measure the entire profile with a CMM (anyone recognize this acronym?). I'll be able to overlay the profiles from each intake and exhaust cam and show them together graphicly. That could help settle the what-cam-to-use question.

I'm saying this assuming Ford has not released the specs of the cams at some point already. Has anyone checked to see whether or not they're available?
 
This is what I would expect.

I'll be sure to measure both cams when they show up. I won't be just measuring them with a set of calipers though. Assuming I get some extra time at work next week, I'll measure the entire profile with a CMM (anyone recognize this acronym?). I'll be able to overlay the profiles from each intake and exhaust cam and show them together graphicly. That could help settle the what-cam-to-use question.

I'm saying this assuming Ford has not released the specs of the cams at some point already. Has anyone checked to see whether or not they're available?

CMM = coordinate measuring machine

Commonly used in better machine shops as part of their inspection process to confirm the part is made to print.

I would love to see what the CMM shows. I've never had a timing wheel on an engine with these cams so I wonder if all the rumors I've heard are true.

One of the rumors is that, at least on the intake cams, the lift and duration of each individual cam lobe is the same as on the non-SVT. The difference is that some duration was gained overall by slightly staggering the primary valve lobe from the secondary valve lobe (think leading and trailing valve events between the primary and secondary intake valve).

Talking engine theory for a moment, these are the cams I would want for a Contour 3.0 conversion with a manual transmission. I'm not too certain about with a slush box though as the trans then becomes a big limitation, not so much because of the hydraulic losses, but due to the overall gearing.

Again, talking theory, there are those that feel that it is a mistake to use these cams on an engine with the late oval port type heads, as those heads may incorporate some swirl that the longer duration may disrupt. That is the concept that Terry Haines espouses.

My thought is that any such limitation really shows the restriction of the lower intake manifold when used on a 3.0. Moving from 2.5 to a 3.0 means that there is potential to move 20% more air due to the 20% increase in piston displacement. You will not get all of the 20% if you keep the ports the same size as the 2.5. The SHO Shop modification to the lower intake looks like it is about right to stay up on needed airflow for more displacement. An alternative is to remove the secondary plates but that brings with it other concerns including some fuel economy and low end power losses.

Also in keeping with having sufficient airflow, a larger throttle body is in order. From calculating the area of the opening, moving from a 60mm throttle body to a 66mm throttle body would be a match. That means that the 65mm conversion that many have done is just about the right match for moving to a 3.0 using SVT cams. Other restrictions need to be addressed too, such as the exhaust "Y" pipe and the possibility of running headers.

Also from theory, part of the potential exhaust restriction has already been addressed. The 3.0 exhaust valves are proportionally larger that the 2.5 exhaust valve. That is that although both intake and exhaust valves are larger, the exhaust valves were opened more.

In the end though, theory just helps point you in the right direction. Actual numbers tell the true story.

So my overall thought is that the SVT cams are probably the best choice, but other things are needed to take best advantage of them.
 
CMM = coordinate measuring machine

Commonly used in better machine shops as part of their inspection process to confirm the part is made to print.


Correct!

We most often use ours for reverse engineering vehicle components or industrial equipment.

It sounds like your logic is identical to mine. Changing the sizes of components to allow for 20% more airflow is a good starting point, but I think going even bigger is better. It's proven that a larger throttle body can increase horsepower on an engine without increasing displacement. To me, increasing flow 20% is just getting back to stock airflow for what would have been a 3.0L SVT motor. The upper rpms are when the extra air flow is needed since you're trying to move a larger volume per unit time. That's the only reason I could begin to argue for the 3.0L cam. I really think that even if air flow restricts the motor from fully benefiting from the SVT cams above 5500 rpms, the motor will still be able to benefit from the SVT cams in the mid range.

I don't have a timing wheel, so getting the orientation might be a little tricky. Hopefully I can find a common feature on each cam to give correct time. I will definitely be able to confirm whether or not the SVT cam's intake lobes are out of time, or it they are timed together. Same for the 3.0L cam.

I'm really glad to see this thread taking the direction it has. This is some of the un-biased discussion I was hoping to find while searching but didn't. It seems like most of the reasoning I've seen so far for using a particular setup is "That's what I'm running, so it must be the best."
 
On the throttle body size. Non SVT 2.5 throttle body is only 54mm. The SVT throttle body uses the same housing as the Taurus (pre 2000) to obtain the 60mm size. The SVT throttle body is already oversized. The SVT throttle body may be just fine with 3.0 cams.

Dyno results show that using a 65mm throttle body on a stock or nearly stock 2.5 SVT results in a slight loss of power.

Without further information to work with, that indicates that the 65mm throttle body would be about right for a 3.0 with SVT cams.
 
If you do port the heads, make sure you keep the bit lubricated. Otherwise it will clog up and take forever. I ported my last 4 holes faster lubed than my first 2 not lubed.
 
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