Hi, I'm having trouble starting my car on mornings, it makes a whinning noise that fits the "death whine" description, the weird part is that it only makes the sound during the first crank of the day (it always cranks, so I think there is no teeth damaged yet), afeterwards it turns over without problems, I was reading on the archive and thought maybe the problem is the starter solenoid?
Due to the fact that the problem is only present during the very first daily crank, and never during the subsequent crankings, could the solenoid be sticking or something?
Can I just replace the solenoid in case it's busted?
Thanks!!
OK, I found more posts on the archive, seems to really be a pain in the %&%$#% to remove the starter... I still have some questions:
when exactly is the starter solenoid supposed to click? (is it when the key is turned to the on position just before cranking it?)
if I manage to get the starter out, how can I know if the starter is bad? (I know I'll have to test the unit connecting the small and big leads, but will I know if the teeth are broken or grinded on the starter or on the flywheel?)
Thanks!
removing the starter isn't THAT hard.
removal of the battery will almost certainly be required.
removal of the intake setup provides much more room (99% needed)
Once removed, you can visually inspect the starter and flywheel (spinning the flywheel by hand/tool to inspect all of the teeth)
The bendix in the starter may be the problem, as well.
If it won't start, and just spins, try placing the car in gear (MTX) and rocking the car back and forth from catch to catch (where the gear stops the car from rolling) and then start the car. this resettles the teeth together, and will at least get you going.
replacement of the starter before the flywheel becomes damaged would be adviseable.
Ray
Thanks for the quick response Ray, the car starts every single time, but especially the first crank of the day I hear a whinning noise AFTER the motor starts runing... I just remembered that... it's like the starter gets stuck in there...
I'll pay attention tomorow and try to confirm this... but now I come to think of it, im almost sure this is the case, the whinning comes after, not before, the motor has cranked.... and just to clarify, I do not keep the keys in the crank position too much time, I always disengage it as soon as the motor starts and then the sound comes... this is strange... kinda like when you hit the starter when the car is already running...
If this is the case (if it's even possible that the starter isn't retracting immediatly after cranking the motor, staying there a second or two) will it gring or damage the teeth? it doesn't sound like it is skiping teeth or anything like that...
Once you get the starter out, take it to your local Autozone or auto parts store. They can usually bench test it.
that noise sounds like the engine over-revving the starter.. wouldn't FORSEE it damaging the flywheel, unless they were misaligned, or binding.. (bendix going out, etc)
as long as the starter was in good working order, and aligned, it would simply over-burn the starter, and "whine"
Of course... IMHO.
Ray
Thanks again Ray, I think you might be right, well, I hope so... I will remove it and inspect it...
Just courious, If I crank the starter with the engine already running, would I hear this very same sound or would it cause it to grind and possibly get damaged? I would like to try it just to corroborate our little theory, but I'll better be sure I won't breake or worsen anything, what do you think?
Thanks again!
TECHNICALLY... it damages it every time you hear that sound.. (though would damage the starter, I would think.. and not the flywheel)
starting after running, or "sticking" as you call it is the same end result.
The debateable part would be whether or not it damages the flywheel, at all..
again, unless it were misaligned, I wouldn't THINK so... someone else will chime in with some opinion, or experience with this.
Ray
Well, I listened carefully this morning and I think the sound may be present from the moment I crank it, it still starts every time, and very fast, it never takes more than a second... this is weird...
Originally posted by JyYyM:
Well, I listened carefully this morning and I think the sound may be present from the moment I crank it, it still starts every time, and very fast, it never takes more than a second... this is weird...
I had a starter "scratching" on my 92 Suburban...It started just fine, up to the day I replaced it...I didn't want it to leave us stranded somewhere, that's the only reason I changed it...
I suspect something like that is what's happening to my starter because I hear no skipping at all, I guess I'll try to remove it and inspect it...
any other ideas about what could be wrong?
thanks
I have a 98 svt and it does the EXACT same thing. It seems to wine right when the car is started and only on cold starts. definitley weird. Let me know what you find out about it.
How long has your CSVT had the problem? I don't know about mine because I bought it a few weeks ago, also how many miles on the odometer?
I'm trying to get some facts here, I'll take it to a shop and let you know, but those answers would help.
I can tell you that this is what happens just prior to the teeth both on the starter and the flywheel getting chewed up. The flywheel teeth do not mesh properly on these cars. And over time fail prematurely. Ford has a new updated flywheel that has chamfered edges for better engagement and no binding and grinding. I would replace the starter first, but visually inspect the flywheel closely when you have the starter off. Look for uneven or rounded teeth on the flywheel. If the new starter grinds after you install it...then be prepared for major work, or major dollars to spend to replace that flywheel with a new one. "DO NOT" buy an aftermarket flywheel. Get the Ford updated one. It cost me $80.00 Canadian. Big job to change it. I have learned more about my car changing that dam thing...believe me...if you dont have tools and patients better get a shop to do it.I hope for your sake...your right and its just the starter. If you replace it, and it starts acting up again you will know the flywheel is shot.
Thanks for the tip, so, are you certain that my symptoms (noise only a second after the car starts up, only the first time of the day) indicate that the teeth are about to go??
Also, any ideas about why this happens only when the car is cold, and at the first crank of the day? I'm curious about that...
Im not certain, but you need to replace the starter anyway. Just when you get it off...check the flywheel teeth very carefully. And if the new one grinds anytime soon after you install it, then you will know for sure the flywheel is no good. Hopefully it is only the starter. Ford had alot of problems with failed flywheels...just imagine the cost of a recall on that one? I have heard of people paying $1000.00 and up for flywheel replacement. And to think that they are aware of the problem, with the new superceded Flywheel part. Mine did what yours did for quite a while...I ignored it and when I did finally get around to taking off the starter....and getting a new one...I installed it and two days later, the same thing again. Pulled it off, and one of the mechanic at the dealer told me to check the flywheel. So second time I took it off, I had someone turn the crankshaft bolt slowly while I inspected the teeth with a flashlight through the starter opening....I wanted to cry when I saw a couple of places where the teeth was chewed really bad. The part is cheap...the labour is a PITA of a job.
Just funny you mention that you just bought the car a few weeks ago...same thing happened to me....got the car cheap, because I think the seller was informed of the problem by some shop, and the cost to fix it...so he unloaded it on me. I test drove the car and it ran fine, he easily dropped his price by $400.00 without a comeback. About 3 weeks later my wife said the car was making a noise when you start it. I went out and tried it and it started fine...told her its nothing and works ok. She told me again in another week or so...its still making a noise in the morning when she starts the car. Next day I tried to start it myself...whirring sound and it got worse as time progressed. Then it went downhill from there. Jerk sold me his daughters car who moved to Australia is what he said...more like a bunch of BS...he knew what was wrong when he sold it. I fixed it up, and it only had 80,000k on it...two days work with myself and brother and its been great ever since...135,000k and runs like a champ. I know this car inside out now, and you just have to keep up on the little things and quirks and I love the handling and power it has.
Don't be surprised if you get the starter off and do not notice any damage on the teeth. I replaced a whirring/grinding starter a few weeks ago, and the old starter looked fine. Apparently it only takes a very small amount of shaving on the teeth for them not to connect properly with the flywheel.
It is not a bad job at all if your hands are small.
Thanks, Well, I hope I can get away just replacing the starter... the problem is that I have big hands, there isn't a how to or any pics of where the bolts are is it? that would be handy...
I'll have pictures taken by tonight... Hold off until then.
Ray
There is one in the front and one in the back. It can be a little difficult to get leverage, so hopefully they aren't on there too tight. Then, of course, you need to disconnect the electrical stuff on the front of the starter as well. Seems like there were just a couple of nuts to take off there.
You shouldn't need to disconnect any hoses or fuel line like some suggest in other posts. Just the intake and battery (and battery tray, obviously) is fine. It is a tight fit getting the starter out once it is unbolted as well, just wiggle it around.
Thanks a lot ray!! I'll hold on, besides I have to get the 170 bucks for the starter first.
Do I disconect the electrical suff in the starter first or after I have taken the bolts out?
Thanks
I think I did it after so that I could move the starter slightly to get a better angle on the electrical stuff. Makes no difference though. There are only 2 nuts that need to come off the electrical part, the third nut (I think it is all the way to the left) is attached to the starter and does not need to be removed. It will help if you have sockets with deep wells for those two nuts.
Do you happen to remember the nut sizes by any chance?
Thank you very much for your help!!
Sorry, I never remember stuff like that. There are guys one here that can tell you the size of every freakin bolt and nut on this car though. Right Ray? Impressive... or sad?
10mm, or maybe 8... a standard metric socket set will suffice to do this job, though having a deep-well in that one particular size would make things easier)
Ray
Originally posted by Ray:
10mm, or maybe 8... a standard metric socket set will suffice to do this job, though having a deep-well in that one particular size would make things easier)
Ray
HAH! Told ya.
LOL.. I posted while you replied, and came back to see that post by you.. funny.
Ray
LOL!! Thank you very much guys
I have the next thing above pictures for you.
videos I took. Give me an email addy you want them at (2.5mb and smaller) and I will shoot them your way.
I didn't disassemble my car, but I got a good shot of the two you need to remove.
Removal of the airbox, accordion tube, battery, battery tray. SHOULD be all you need.
Just make sure you have your windows up, etc, before you remove that battery... haha (:troutslap self)
Ray
Gee, I'm blown away!!, could you send me a new starter also please!? just kidding, I really apreciate it
You've got PM!!
LOL, In case I forget to close the windows, I'll try to get the new starter and everything else before it rains.
Thanks again!!
Originally posted by JyYyM:
could you send me a new starter also please!?
I could always see what I could get one for (family in the auto-repair business, so you never know..)
Order one from Steve at Tousley or Bill J. for your best pricing.
No clue on the comparison of discount on that particular part, so CHECK BOTH places!
PS.. you've got mail.
Ray
Thanks Ray, I'll check both options but I doubt that would work, I live in Mexico City and although I could have it shipped to Texas, where a friend of mine could receive it and later send to me, I'm afraid that it would take more time that I'm willing to wait, although if the savings are considerable I might go ahead and wait. So, off I go to search for Steve's and Bill's mails.
Thanks for the video, I'll check it right away!
JyYyM
PS. I just saw you also live in Tx, hehe, what a coincidence, my friend lives in Edinburg... I beleive that is near Austin? he always goes to some track over there...
bill/steve info is under duratec maintenanceforum-->duratec maintenance faq
Ray
Well, updating the situation, for anyone who suffers the same problems with the starter motor...
I took mine to a specialized shop, they took the starter out, changed the bendix which was nearly shot according to the mechanic,a strange plastic gear of some sort, they changed some bushings an some carbons, (this was for maintainance purposes only) and everything seems ok for know, he told me that my flywheel had received some beating from the milling but that most probably it would hold, and it seems he was right, knock on wood...
It cost me about 70 bucks, so it wasn't that bad, probably about 100 less that getting a new starter, so if anyone has the same symptoms, I would suggest to replace the starter or have it serviced as soon as posible, or you'll soon hear the whine of death...
Thanks to all who helped!
JyYyM
Glad to hear you got it fixed...and I hope the mechanic is right and the flywheel holds out. If it grinds or mills one time, then you know whats next! Good luck!
Yeah, I know, I did hear a hint of milling the very first morning after the fix, but I may had inadvertly given it too much "key time", after that, I have not heard anything bad not even on mornings, I hope at least it lasts a year or so...
also updating the situation, i changed the starter tonight. HUGE PITA. had to take out all of the coolant lines and even had to heat up the bolt on the starter it was so tight. anyway, flywheel had no damage and the starters bendix was what was making the noise. i believe as long as the car was starting there was no damage being done but if your car doesn't start don't let it grind. car starts up very nicely!
what if you change the starter, inspect the flywheel and it looks fine but it still grinds the odd time (once a week on average).
i had this problem for 2 years now but it comes and goes, it has gone as long as 3 to 4 weeks without grinding and as bad as 2 or 3 times a day.
BTW i have the Fidanza Flywheel and i have about 30k on it.
Originally posted by abwamo:
what if you change the starter, inspect the flywheel and it looks fine but it still grinds the odd time (once a week on average).
i had this problem for 2 years now but it comes and goes, it has gone as long as 3 to 4 weeks without grinding and as bad as 2 or 3 times a day.
BTW i have the Fidanza Flywheel and i have about 30k on it.
You sure it isn't the weird "clattering/rapping" start up sound that some of us have every now and then.
http://www.contour.org/FAQ/FAQ.php?s=probs&displayid=18
http://www.contour.org/FAQ/tsb/content/97-2-8.html
no this the sound you get when you try to start the car while its running " a grinding sound".
i'm familiar with clattering on my 95, it doesn't bother me.
Originally posted by Tony2005:
Originally posted by abwamo:
what if you change the starter, inspect the flywheel and it looks fine but it still grinds the odd time (once a week on average).
i had this problem for 2 years now but it comes and goes, it has gone as long as 3 to 4 weeks without grinding and as bad as 2 or 3 times a day.
BTW i have the Fidanza Flywheel and i have about 30k on it.
You sure it isn't the weird "clattering/rapping" start up sound that some of us have every now and then.
http://www.contour.org/FAQ/FAQ.php?s=probs&displayid=18
http://www.contour.org/FAQ/tsb/content/97-2-8.html
I have this issue on my 00 CSVT. Push the clutch in, turn the key, GRIND, do it again, starts fine. My CSVT has had the starter replaced before.
I ALSO get the chattering noise described to only happen on early V6 motors on any cold start up. After reading that second link you posted Tony, I think I might make an apointment to have both that AND my flywheel looked at, as I have a feeling it's got some chew marks on it. 