What to go with?

[m1a rocks]

Ok, now I'm having second thoughts about doing the 3.0L with the SVT LIM,UIM,TB. Seems a lot to be said about just putting the 3.0L in the car as it is ( small mods still needed).

Quote;
"i hate full 3L's.
i should have just put my SVT stuff back on, lol.

i got joey's fuel rail mod, but now i can't find another fuel rail (since i ruined my 04 rail trying to modify it myself)
End quote;

I've got a very low mileage (19k) 04' engine sitting in the garage right now from LKQ.
I have a totaled out svt donor in the garage that I'm taking apart right now. Early 98', so it has return style fuel rail.
My build car is a 96 SE, manual trans. Super clean, one owner car that I picked up real cheap. Blown rod.

If I was to go with a straight 3.0L what all would I need? (Besides the pulse wheel movement, bushing in crank removal, timming cover change, nubs removed for alt. bracket).
Quote;
" For fuel, pick up a nautilus fuel block and use the stock 04+ fuel rail."

Is this pretty much all I would need if I use the Taurus intake set up?
I've been seeing both sides of the aurgument on this and am starting to lean toward the Taurus 3.0L intake. However the SVT does look pretty good in the car.
Would the 3.0L run ok if I don't get the tune for a while?
If I did the SVT intake match, I thought that once I get things running I would make figure out a way to make the ECU from the SVT work in my 96'. I have the complete car, ignition with keys. Figured it can't be that hard to get the PATS system working with that.

Can anyone convince me which way to go?
Does it look like I've covered all the bases here?
Thanks a lot guys. I've really picked up a ton of info here. I feel like I know a whole lot more than I did a few weeks ago when BrApple pointed me to the ceg site. Thanks again, Brian..............

 

[PurpleMystique]

I'm assuming you read my post in your other thread, so you know what I have to say regarding which route to take.

On a full 3.0, you'll also need to modify your throttle body bracket to accept the 2.5's throttle cables, you'll need to do some re-routing of vacuum lines, and you'll need to figure out what to do with EGR. The easiest thing to do is delete it - block it off at the exhaust manifold and intake manifold, eliminate a ton of vacuum lines, and be sure to mention to your tuner that you no longer have EGR. Otherwise, you can cut up your old and new EGR tubes and connect them with a brass compression fitting (home improvement and hardware stores have these).

edit: Here's a link to my other post, just for reference: Link

 

[SHOgoFast]

I do not think the full 3L is as easy as some make it out to be.

Here are the things that I believe need to be changed/modded to work.

- Fuel Rail - you already have this covered with the Nautilus parts.

- Vacuum connections are different than stock 2.5, you will need to modifiy the vac lines so that eveything that needs a vac source gets one. You will also have to block some extra vacuum ports on the 3L upper as they will not be used.

- The 3L PCV system is different than the 2.5. I do not know the correct way to address this or if it's at all difficult.

- Coil pack has to be relocated somewhere since it will not sit on the rear valve cover anymore. I really havn't seen any really good locations. Pud's was nice inside the cowl.

- IMRC, full 3L eliminates secondaries so you will have to trick the ECU into thinking they are still there or you will get a CEL. Tune can fix this but it sounds like you want to wait a bit before tuning.

- Throttle body bracket has to be modified to work with 2.5 throttle cables. Some have had issues getting cruise control cable to work.

These are the things I have observed first hand on a full 3L as well as read around here over the years. I have never built and installed a full 3L but I have worked on one. Obviously it can be done with much success, but requires a bit more auto knowledge and much much more attention to detail.

Lastly, I like port-matched because when it come time to trouble shoot issues with the new 3L or issues that show up down-the-road, everything looks familiar and functions just as the 2.5 did. Hell, you could even take it to a shop and they wouldn't flip out.

Just my .02

Best of luck.

 

[PurpleMystique]

- Throttle body has to be modified to work with 3L upper. Some have had issues getting cruise control line to work.

BRACKET - the bracket needs to be modified. The 2.5 throttle body WON'T work. A lack of clarity left me under the misconception that my 2.5 TB would work when I was doing my 3.0. The IAC on the 2.5 is in a different location.

 

[Bugzuki]

No the 2.5L throttle body flange is different then the 3L manifold flange. So, you have to use the 3.0L Trottle body.

 

[PurpleMystique]

No the 2.5L throttle body flange is different then the 3L manifold flange. So, you have to use the 3.0L Trottle body.

Isn't that what I said?

 

[m1a rocks]

I do not think the full 3L is as easy as some make it out to be.

Here are the things that I believe need to be changed/modded to work.

- Fuel Rail - you already have this covered with the Nautilus parts.

- Vacuum connections are different than stock 2.5, you will need to modifiy the vac lines so that eveything that needs a vac source gets one. You will also have to block some extra vacuum ports on the 3L upper as they will not be used.

- The 3L PCV system is different than the 2.5. I do not know the correct way to address this or if it's at all difficult.

- Coil pack has to be relocated somewhere since it will not sit on the rear valve cover anymore. I really havn't seen any really good locations. Pud's was nice inside the cowl.

- IMRC, full 3L eliminates secondaries so you will have to trick the ECU into thinking they are still there or you will get a CEL. Tune can fix this but it sounds like you want to wait a bit before tuning.

- Throttle body bracket has to be modified to work with 2.5 throttle cables. Some have had issues getting cruise control cable to work.

These are the things I have observed first hand on a full 3L as well as read around here over the years. I have never built and installed a full 3L but I have worked on one. Obviously it can be done with much success, but requires a bit more auto knowledge and much much more attention to detail.

Lastly, I like port-matched because when it come time to trouble shoot issues with the new 3L or issues that show up down-the-road, everything looks familiar and functions just as the 2.5 did. Hell, you could even take it to a shop and they wouldn't flip out.

Just my .02

Best of luck.

Definitely gives me a few things to think about. A lot of factors I didn't consider.
Doing a little research, I have found some comments by Terry Haines that seemed to really downplay doing the port matching mods. Those were from 2006. Kinda wonder if his thoughts/ opinion has changed any on the matter now.
It seems like a ton of guys have done the port matching and are really happy with it. I have done some port work on my mustang heads before and have gotten pretty good at it so thats not really an issue.
On a side note, I have put some thought into installing the ECU from the SVT after I get things running. Question is, will that mean anything after I eventually get a tune? Seems that the tune would change all the parameters of the ECU, so would it really make any difference to put in the SVT ECU? (Assumming I go the port matching route).
Thanks for all the input PurpleMystique. I did read your input on my fuel rail post.
I have to find the time to finish pulling the engine from the donor SVT, get her taken apart and get the 96' into the garage to pull that engine.
Anyone need a set of SVT heads and cams? What the heck are they worth anyways? Thanks again, Brian................

 

[PurpleMystique]

Definitely gives me a few things to think about. A lot of factors I didn't consider.
Doing a little research, I have found some comments by Terry Haines that seemed to really downplay doing the port matching mods. Those were from 2006. Kinda wonder if his thoughts/ opinion has changed any on the matter now.

Nope, still the same. He's a firm believer that the end user shouldn't mess with the original engineering by taking a die grinder to the 3.0 heads.

It seems like a ton of guys have done the port matching and are really happy with it.

This is true, but most of them don't have a basis for comparison other than their old engine. But take into consideration that very few (have any?) people have done a full 3.0, then later decided to do a port-matched, while several members have switched from port-match to full and love it.

On a side note, I have put some thought into installing the ECU from the SVT after I get things running. Question is, will that mean anything after I eventually get a tune? Seems that the tune would change all the parameters of the ECU, so would it really make any difference to put in the SVT ECU? (Assumming I go the port matching route).

Your best bet is to just get a tune for the stock ECU right away. The SVT ECU would be an improvement over the stock ECU, but from what I've heard it's a PITA to install or get working if you run into PATS complications. And like you said, it will be a lot of work for nothing once you get a real tune.

Anyone need a set of SVT heads and cams? What the heck are they worth anyways? Thanks again, Brian................

Check the classifieds to see what people are typically selling things for. As a reference, here's what I got for my parts a year ago:
UIM: $230
LIM: $110
IMRC: $75
Accordian tube: $25
Fuel rail: $20

My mechanic held onto the SVT block, one head, and its cams, so I never got to sell those parts.

 

[Harrry]

UIM: $230
LIM: $110
IMRC: $75
Accordian tube: $25
Fuel rail: $20

My mechanic held onto the SVT block, one head, and its cams, so I never got to sell those parts.

That pricing is old....even though it was a year ago....this is what they go for today...who ever bought that stuff did not negotiate very well and you made out great.

UIM: $150-175
LIM: $60
IMRC: $40-70
Accordian tube: $10
Fuel rail: $15-20

See i am torn as well to the idea of going with a full 3.0l or port matched.

If you go with a port matched setup...you won't ahve to delete the secondaries or remove the egr system. Which is great if you don't want to order a tune for it. Some people say a tune is needed no matter what...but others have shown that there air fuel ratio was between 12.8-13.2 on average. So there was no problem.

I don't know.....but for some reason.....i agree with the above...that people won't flip out if you do decide to take your car in for repair....or even try to sell it. People hate modified cars...espeically when it looks nothing like what their repair manual is showing.:shrug:

I'll bet a 3.0L port matched would sell 5x quicker then a full 3.0L in an svt any day of the week. IMHO

 

[PurpleMystique]

That pricing is old....even though it was a year ago....this is what they go for today...who ever bought that stuff did not negotiate very well and you made out great.

I'd like to thank NECO for that.

If you go with a port matched setup...you won't ahve to delete the secondaries or remove the egr system. Which is great if you don't want to order a tune for it. Some people say a tune is needed no matter what...but others have shown that there air fuel ratio was between 12.8-13.2 on average. So there was no problem.

I've seen a dyno graph floating around here somewhere that showed before and after the tune, and although the tune only picked up 1 or 2 peak hp, it smoothed out the whole curve very very well. It might have been on a full 3.0, but the idea is the same. Also, as I posted about injectors earlier, it's better to keep the 3.0 injectors so that you have the correct spray pattern and so you don't exceed the duty cycle of the 17# injectors. And selling off the SVT parts should finance most of a tune.

I don't know.....but for some reason.....i agree with the above...that people won't flip out if you do decide to take your car in for repair....or even try to sell it. People hate modified cars...espeically when it looks nothing like what their repair manual is showing.:shrug:

I'll bet a 3.0L port matched would sell 5x quicker then a full 3.0L in an svt any day of the week. IMHO

**** the future. Do what you want now. Don't sacrifice years of happiness for some potential perceived loss of value.

 

[m1a rocks]

What would you say that a tune would end up costing, total? How exactly does one go about it? I live in southestern MI, do I start out with a dyno? Would the 24# injectors work at all, seeing as the SE has 17# injectors?
I looked at the excel tune from Nautalis last week. I understand that the tune would be spedific to my car and the mods I've done. Whats up with the "tuning device" that comes with pre loaded tunes in it? I looked at their website (SCT) and noticed that they also come that way.
I really wouldn't mind the full 3.0 liter at all. I've got a 2004 Sable that my wife drives and that things got some balls! I've thought, heck put that thing in a Contour with a 5 speed and it would be a blast!
I had just picked up my latest daily driver, a 98 Mystique, 2.0 when I spotted this 96' SE mtx, with a thrown rod. It seemed like a cool project so I bought it. One owner car. The women wanted to cry. I told her I'd come by some day with it when I get her going.
Sorry back on track, I figured the only real way to go was with the SVT upper, so I found a smashed up one that the guy really needed to get rid of. Cheap. Real cheap.Thats my donor. Also got the 3.0 sitting in the garage until I am SURE of which way I'm going with this.
Almost got the engine out tonight. Forgot the clutch line. then remembered that Lost was on. Oh well. I'll get that thing out tomorrow! I want my garage back as well.
Thanks again, Brian..............

 

[Harrry]

Also, as I posted about injectors earlier, it's better to keep the 3.0 injectors so that you have the correct spray pattern and so you don't exceed the duty cycle of the 17# injectors. And selling off the SVT parts should finance most of a tune..

WHo cares about 17's.....svts come with 19's Wouldn't have to worry too much about the 19's till you hit over 240 or 250hp i forgot :shrug:

**** the future. Do what you want now. Don't sacrifice years of happiness for some potential perceived loss of value.

:crazy:
What??? lmao...Your so serious at times it cracks me up.

 

[BrApple]

If you go with a port matched setup...you won't ahve to delete the secondaries or remove the egr system. Which is great if you don't want to order a tune for it. Some people say a tune is needed no matter what...but others have shown that there air fuel ratio was between 12.8-13.2 on average. So there was no problem.

yes a port matched setup will run on the stock tune. a few we had on the dyno where into the 11's for a/f ratio. most stayed pretty healthy. So yes they will run untuned but a tune is highly recommended and suggested.

going with a straight 3L you need an immediate tune since the secondaries have been removed.

 

[PurpleMystique]

What would you say that a tune would end up costing, total? How exactly does one go about it? I live in southestern MI, do I start out with a dyno?

The simplest approach is probably a mail-order tune. Send a PM to Joey (his name on here is BurritaSVT), he owns Nautilus Performance Group. Tell him you want an XCal and the performance tune. They take your information, write up a tune for your computer, and put it on a tuning device (XCal 3), then send it to you. You plug the device into your OBDII port, hit upload, and it reflashes your engine computer with the new tune. The list price for a tune is $200 and the XCal 3 is $379, but I believe if you buy them together it's $500, at least that was the deal when I got mine. The XCal 3 also allows you to datalog - it records engine data as you drive. You can send that data back to NPG and they'll adjust your tune to get it even better.

Would the 24# injectors work at all, seeing as the SE has 17# injectors?

The 24# injectors would work, and they would work better than the 17# or 19# injectors. Keep in mind that injectors made for the 2.5 are going to spray sideways, so if they are put in a 3.0 with oval ports, some of the spray will end up on the wall of the passageway, robbing you of a few hp and some mpg.

I really wouldn't mind the full 3.0 liter at all. I've got a 2004 Sable that my wife drives and that things got some balls! I've thought, heck put that thing in a Contour with a 5 speed and it would be a blast!

My dad also has a Duratec Sable, it definitely moves.

 

[PurpleMystique]

WHo cares about 17's.....svts come with 19's Wouldn't have to worry too much about the 19's till you hit over 240 or 250hp i forgot :shrug:

An '04-'05 full 3.0 will easily put out 200whp, assuming a 15% drivetrain loss (200/0.85) is 235 crank hp. According to this calculator (Link: here), an engine with 235 crank hp requires ~24.5# injectors to avoid exceeding the 80% duty cycle.

Combine that with the spray pattern issue, and I'd say 24# is the only way to go.

 

[m1a rocks]

Thanks a lot. I'm getting the answers that I was looking for. The more that I think about it, the more I think perhaps I will go with the straight 3.0L.
Guess the best thing to do is start looking for the fuel rail off an escape. Exactly what years am I looking for? I know someone said they used one from a 2002 escape. Is that something that most yards would consider part of the intake and want you to buy the whole thing?
When I get off in the morning I'm going to make a few calls. Really would help to know exactly what years though.
Thanks, Brian............

 

[PurpleMystique]

Thanks a lot. I'm getting the answers that I was looking for. The more that I think about it, the more I think perhaps I will go with the straight 3.0L.
Guess the best thing to do is start looking for the fuel rail off an escape. Exactly what years am I looking for? I know someone said they used one from a 2002 escape. Is that something that most yards would consider part of the intake and want you to buy the whole thing?
When I get off in the morning I'm going to make a few calls. Really would help to know exactly what years though.
Thanks, Brian............

I used the 2002 Escape fuel rail (found it on eBay), and it fits perfectly. I'm at work right now, but if I remember when I get home, I can post some pictures. The '01-'03 Taurus/Sable fuel rail also works if it's flipped around (stock Taurus/Sable had the fuel rail inlet on the passenger side of the engine, Contour and Escape have it on the driver side). It just looks awkward. I couldn't tell you about the '04-'05 Taurus/Sable fuel rail, maybe someone else can chime in.

 

[BrApple]

I believe all the taurus/sable fuel rails are the same, feed is from the passanger side ...

 

[m1a rocks]

I have a line on a 2006 escape engine. The thing has very low miles(26k) but the oil wasn't changed much. If I was to buy the fuel rail and oil pan;pick-up tube, what would a good price be?
I am assuming that the oil pan will have the holes in it for the trans bolts?
I can get the whole engine for $200.00 but I really don't need another engine lying around. I'm starting to look like a parts lot here.
He said it has a bad lifter. Pulled the engine and replaced.
Thanks, Brian..........

 

[PurpleMystique]

Here's an '01 Taurus 3.0 with the Taurus fuel rail flipped around (UIM removed):

and here's the '02 Escape fuel rail installed: