Amen.. All i asked is help for my 95 timing belt WITH OUT (i stress OUT) VCT. Oh well, i like learning bout the VCT process tho. Sounds kinda interesting.
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Timing Belt Issue
- Thread starter UmmScott
- Start date
Amen.. All i asked is help for my 95 timing belt WITH OUT (i stress OUT) VCT. Oh well, i like learning bout the VCT process tho. Sounds kinda interesting.
Only if you understand it. Apparently some work for Ford and still do not.
'The issue is not that the belt is or is not 'setteled' in. The issue is that there are small differences between the belt that was installed on the car and the belt you are putting on. The idea of neutraling out the gears is to get the teeth on the gears and the teeth on the belt in perfect sync with each other.'
Settled in is exactly what I mean by neutraling the sprockets, someone else just doesn't get it. How it works: crank pulls belt, belt pulls front exhaust sprocket then finally gets around to the back intake sprocket, friction at tappets will cause both cams to drag backward against that thus neutralling the belt/cams. The teeth on gears and the teeth on belt get in perfect sync automatically when motor runs, you either get it or you don't. The cam/sprocket is FREE AS A UNIT to center in that tooth pattern since nothing attached to other end of cam. Train friction will make cam tend to hold back on belt mostly.
'It is also clear that you didn't read, or at least remember, the entire step of neutraling out the gears. You don't install the belt like normal and then loosen the gears. After you remove the old belt, you loosen the gears, then install the belt as normal and then tighten up the gears starting with the intake cam.'
Totally irrelevent, if you are going to loosen, will work either way. More important than any of that is to roll engine around several times lastly and then recheck timing with camtool.
'Ford seen enough of this issue as to try to figure out a way to fix it so they didn't have to keep doing warranty work on new belt installs.'
I don't doubt that a bit if their mechs cannot think any more than that. I've seen how the latest service manuals have been dumbed down, obvious they do not think their people as smart as they used to. Certainly would not be the first time though a revised service procedure created more damage than it cured.
I have never run into the problem, but I have only done like eight or so. I also have worked on high output twin cammed 4 cylinder four stroke pocket rockets as well as many American engines including much all out competition drag race motor. How about 700+ cubic inch pro stock fat block Chevy with belt cam drive?
As far as setting VCT off by a tooth, only someone who does not know what they are doing will do that. Once again I say, if you do not loosen exhaust sprocket you will have no VCT problems unless (here goes) you are not smart enough to work on the engine.
'Basically, if you don't have that hole set right, the return spring in the VCT hub is not properly set and will not function as it should.'
Someone does NOT understand VCT or would know the spring is only an assist. Half the time it does not function anyway; as the cam retards, oil pressure change and train friction have overridden it. It does NOT have enough tension to recover lost cam timing by itself, it only adds assist (tension) in one direction since harder for cam to come back forward than retard due to valvetrain friction.
' Even just using a 40 weight oil will cause VCT to work improperly.'
LOL, that's rich. I run straight 30 in winter and 40 in summer. Never had a lick of trouble.
Sorry, UmmScott, we just seem to be abusing the crap out of your thread........
'The issue is not that the belt is or is not 'setteled' in. The issue is that there are small differences between the belt that was installed on the car and the belt you are putting on. The idea of neutraling out the gears is to get the teeth on the gears and the teeth on the belt in perfect sync with each other.'
Settled in is exactly what I mean by neutraling the sprockets, someone else just doesn't get it. How it works: crank pulls belt, belt pulls front exhaust sprocket then finally gets around to the back intake sprocket, friction at tappets will cause both cams to drag backward against that thus neutralling the belt/cams. The teeth on gears and the teeth on belt get in perfect sync automatically when motor runs, you either get it or you don't. The cam/sprocket is FREE AS A UNIT to center in that tooth pattern since nothing attached to other end of cam. Train friction will make cam tend to hold back on belt mostly.
'It is also clear that you didn't read, or at least remember, the entire step of neutraling out the gears. You don't install the belt like normal and then loosen the gears. After you remove the old belt, you loosen the gears, then install the belt as normal and then tighten up the gears starting with the intake cam.'
Totally irrelevent, if you are going to loosen, will work either way. More important than any of that is to roll engine around several times lastly and then recheck timing with camtool.
'Ford seen enough of this issue as to try to figure out a way to fix it so they didn't have to keep doing warranty work on new belt installs.'
I don't doubt that a bit if their mechs cannot think any more than that. I've seen how the latest service manuals have been dumbed down, obvious they do not think their people as smart as they used to. Certainly would not be the first time though a revised service procedure created more damage than it cured.
I have never run into the problem, but I have only done like eight or so. I also have worked on high output twin cammed 4 cylinder four stroke pocket rockets as well as many American engines including much all out competition drag race motor. How about 700+ cubic inch pro stock fat block Chevy with belt cam drive?
As far as setting VCT off by a tooth, only someone who does not know what they are doing will do that. Once again I say, if you do not loosen exhaust sprocket you will have no VCT problems unless (here goes) you are not smart enough to work on the engine.
'Basically, if you don't have that hole set right, the return spring in the VCT hub is not properly set and will not function as it should.'
Someone does NOT understand VCT or would know the spring is only an assist. Half the time it does not function anyway; as the cam retards, oil pressure change and train friction have overridden it. It does NOT have enough tension to recover lost cam timing by itself, it only adds assist (tension) in one direction since harder for cam to come back forward than retard due to valvetrain friction.
' Even just using a 40 weight oil will cause VCT to work improperly.'
LOL, that's rich. I run straight 30 in winter and 40 in summer. Never had a lick of trouble.
Sorry, UmmScott, we just seem to be abusing the crap out of your thread........
I think it is clear you are just not getting it yourself. I know how and why VCT works. I've personally done more then 8 timing jobs on a Zetec. I wrote the first how-to with pictures and I've sold over 80 how-to video disc. It is very safe to say that I know way more about how to time a VCT Zetec then you do. I've seen plenty of VCT failures caused by heavy oil. I've seen plenty of P1383 codes caused by not setting the gear after the belt breaks. I've seen plenty of belts shred until neutraling out the gears is done. It seems you don't understand just how much stress VCT puts on the belt and how much stress even a millimeter of mis-alignment between the teeth can put on the belt.
Take or leave it, I'm done with trying to change your mind. You are like every other person that thinks they 'know' how it is done just because they have gotten lucky a few times doing it themselves. It doens't matter to people like you how many facts you are beat over the head with, you refuse to admit when you are wrong. I'll continue doing it the right way.
Oh yeah, your comment about building the 700 ci engine is completely off base. What does that have to do with timing a VCT Zetec? I guess since you built that engine you can also build space ships and brethe under water.
Take or leave it, I'm done with trying to change your mind. You are like every other person that thinks they 'know' how it is done just because they have gotten lucky a few times doing it themselves. It doens't matter to people like you how many facts you are beat over the head with, you refuse to admit when you are wrong. I'll continue doing it the right way.
Oh yeah, your comment about building the 700 ci engine is completely off base. What does that have to do with timing a VCT Zetec? I guess since you built that engine you can also build space ships and brethe under water.
My friend, along with printing equipment that has so many belts and sprockets you cannot count them, I have high perf tuned, degreed cams (both single and twinned) on, and otherwise, worked on many different types of engine, both bike and car. Please don't discount what I say, at least I can think out to understanding how all the 'neutralling' of cams in the universe does nothing at all to change how the sprockets equal out themselves AUTOMATICALLY under a belt. If you will, having one cam or two (or three) should have no difference on how belt pulls them. If two cams must equal their sprockets under the belt teeth then explain the difference as to why only one (keyed no less) does not. What about engines with twin cams, belt drive and non-moveable sprockets?? And while you're at it, please explain why I do not need to loosen up the crank sprocket same as the cams so that crank can 'neutralize' under belt also. Tell me why the engine knows the difference. I've explained clearly why you do not need to, but you have not made a case for why I need to other than your saying so. Maybe you and others look at the engineers as gods, I do not. They are no smarter than anyone else, just more focused. This procedure is not nearly the only thing I have second guessed engineers on. and I have been pretty much right to my benefit on the other things too.
It's obvious that the belt wander/shredding quit because tension was changed incidentally while someone thought they were 'neutralling' cams.
The idea about the 700 inch motor was that motors are motors, they are all the same once you know how they work. Apparently you think they work differently. We never 'neutralled' that belt drive/sprockets either, even with .700" lift.
30 or 40 weight oils are not considered 'heavy'. While you're at it, please explain the logic train that proves the heavier oil breaks VCT. I'd be curious to hear it. Just talked to some NIASE mechs about it, they say what I did.
Gotten lucky a few times? I have pretty good luck with the race motors. None ever blew up unless I pretty much predicted they would. This zetec is a tinkertoy to me, I figured out the cam thing the first time I did one. Too bad somebody else still hasn't after many and now sells videos on how to do it.
As far as facts, produce some. I'll weight them and keep as worth something or discard as useless. So far though, all I hear is I'm right because I've done more than you, or, copy the manual, it can't be wrong. Those are not facts and my head feels fine.
I have gotten into it with Rockwell International press engineers also, I was right then too. They rewrote some press maintenance procedures based on one of those discussions.
Since the sprockets are pulled by a flexible belt, they actually are recentering themselves under the belt teeth with every revolution they turn while running. Belt gives and takes all along the way, making the variance worse. VCT action will change the tension. Makes all that talk about 'neutralling' cams silly since they rock around under the tooth in use.
Get more basic, when you loosen sprocket, you are simply moving the cam, it can be anywhere across 360 degrees. Has NO EFFECT WHATEVER on how the sprocket fits in the belt teeth. Read that AGAIN. If it did, custom cam timing as in degreed race cams would be impossible. As soon as cam was degreed to other than stock overlap the belt would shred, or so we are told...............
You are saying we cannot increase or decrease overlap for custom tuning. I should point out that 22 degrees of full VCT movement is more than the 1 mm. between the sprockets you talk about.
I remember going through some of this same stuff in mid '70s with Ford SOHC fours. All the mechanics said the engine was problematic and could not be rebuilt without all kinds of problems. All kinds of you can't do this or that. I never had a single problem, the motors lasted forever.
It's obvious that the belt wander/shredding quit because tension was changed incidentally while someone thought they were 'neutralling' cams.
The idea about the 700 inch motor was that motors are motors, they are all the same once you know how they work. Apparently you think they work differently. We never 'neutralled' that belt drive/sprockets either, even with .700" lift.
30 or 40 weight oils are not considered 'heavy'. While you're at it, please explain the logic train that proves the heavier oil breaks VCT. I'd be curious to hear it. Just talked to some NIASE mechs about it, they say what I did.
Gotten lucky a few times? I have pretty good luck with the race motors. None ever blew up unless I pretty much predicted they would. This zetec is a tinkertoy to me, I figured out the cam thing the first time I did one. Too bad somebody else still hasn't after many and now sells videos on how to do it.
As far as facts, produce some. I'll weight them and keep as worth something or discard as useless. So far though, all I hear is I'm right because I've done more than you, or, copy the manual, it can't be wrong. Those are not facts and my head feels fine.
I have gotten into it with Rockwell International press engineers also, I was right then too. They rewrote some press maintenance procedures based on one of those discussions.
Since the sprockets are pulled by a flexible belt, they actually are recentering themselves under the belt teeth with every revolution they turn while running. Belt gives and takes all along the way, making the variance worse. VCT action will change the tension. Makes all that talk about 'neutralling' cams silly since they rock around under the tooth in use.
Get more basic, when you loosen sprocket, you are simply moving the cam, it can be anywhere across 360 degrees. Has NO EFFECT WHATEVER on how the sprocket fits in the belt teeth. Read that AGAIN. If it did, custom cam timing as in degreed race cams would be impossible. As soon as cam was degreed to other than stock overlap the belt would shred, or so we are told...............
You are saying we cannot increase or decrease overlap for custom tuning. I should point out that 22 degrees of full VCT movement is more than the 1 mm. between the sprockets you talk about.
I remember going through some of this same stuff in mid '70s with Ford SOHC fours. All the mechanics said the engine was problematic and could not be rebuilt without all kinds of problems. All kinds of you can't do this or that. I never had a single problem, the motors lasted forever.
I did loosen both sprockets(VCT) and it runs like a dream now(it's been a week) no lights on or anything.
It seems to have power, but I hope the VCT sprocket didn't throw off the exhaust cam timing after I loosened it. The manual never said anything about the VCT thing being out of wack after loosening the sprocket or re-adjusting it, so I guess it doesn't matter.
It seems to have power, but I hope the VCT sprocket didn't throw off the exhaust cam timing after I loosened it. The manual never said anything about the VCT thing being out of wack after loosening the sprocket or re-adjusting it, so I guess it doesn't matter.
andreslobo
Hard-core CEG'er
does it work?
does it work?
Eric
If you followed the FORD mercury process to the letter not only did you get the timing correct (loosening the exhaust cam vct allows you to ensure that all is in time) but the tension as well.
Good job on what has turned into a nightmare for many.
Us "dumb idiots" need to follow the factory instructions to do it right
does it work?
Eric
If you followed the FORD mercury process to the letter not only did you get the timing correct (loosening the exhaust cam vct allows you to ensure that all is in time) but the tension as well.
Good job on what has turned into a nightmare for many.
Us "dumb idiots" need to follow the factory instructions to do it right
That was a very diplomatic answer. You at least, have figured out that the VCT spring pulls against the stop as soon sprocket is loosened since the tappet friction has been disconnected at that point. It's the re-rollaround and retime check that throws everybody off, because the by then tightened sprocket allows the tappet friction to throw off the apparent cam location as to camtool.
And no, you are not 'dumb idiots'. I apologize to anyone who thinks I have slammed them.
Eric2.0, that last sentence of yours exactly what I'm talking about. The manual should have the line about rotating the cam forward against the VCT stop in the timing section so that people don't flip out worrying about why the timing does not seem to line up the second time you roll it around. Instead, that info buried elsewhere in the wrong place.
And no, you are not 'dumb idiots'. I apologize to anyone who thinks I have slammed them.
Eric2.0, that last sentence of yours exactly what I'm talking about. The manual should have the line about rotating the cam forward against the VCT stop in the timing section so that people don't flip out worrying about why the timing does not seem to line up the second time you roll it around. Instead, that info buried elsewhere in the wrong place.
The manual should have the line about rotating the cam forward against the VCT stop in the timing section so that people don't flip out worrying about why the timing does not seem to line up the second time you roll it around.
So in fact the VCT exhaust cam "should" align up with the cam tool "after" a couple of roll around? Mine was only slightly off..maybe like quarter inch, but was told this is normal. My intake was perfect every time.
Yes. On the recheck you first make sure the cam is rotated all the way forward against the internal VCT stop. If you timed it right the first time it will be right every time you roll around to the marks provided you make sure cam is forward. That's why the wrench flats are cast on the cam. People like Andreslobo pay no attention to it because they know they have it right the first time. It can be somewhat disconcerting to newbies though. First time I did one it showed up, I went for the manual realizing the moveable cylinder HAD to have a standard spot to time repeatedly on. That's when I found what I needed way off in another place in manual where it was useless. That info needs to be in the timing belt section, maybe they have changed the text by now........
If cam did not real world line up every time the motor would not run properly. There must be a 'zero' or base set point for the PCM to calculate retard away from. The engine times EXACTLY like a non VCT motor as long as one remembers to make the cam forward against that stop point.
If cam did not real world line up every time the motor would not run properly. There must be a 'zero' or base set point for the PCM to calculate retard away from. The engine times EXACTLY like a non VCT motor as long as one remembers to make the cam forward against that stop point.
Yes. On the recheck you first make sure the cam is rotated all the way forward against the internal VCT stop. If you timed it right the first time it will be right every time you roll around to the marks provided you make sure cam is forward. That's why the wrench flats are cast on the cam. People like Andreslobo pay no attention to it because they know they have it right the first time. It can be somewhat disconcerting to newbies though. First time I did one it showed up, I went for the manual realizing the moveable cylinder HAD to have a standard spot to time repeatedly on. That's when I found what I needed way off in another place in manual where it was useless. That info needs to be in the timing belt section, maybe they have changed the text by now........
If cam did not real world line up every time the motor would not run properly. There must be a 'zero' or base set point for the PCM to calculate retard away from. The engine times EXACTLY like a non VCT motor as long as one remembers to make the cam forward against that stop point.
I know that my exhaust cam with the VCT did NOT align with the cam tool after putting on new belt and rotating 3 times around. The intake did every time. The VCT sprocket would move forward about a half an inch before the cam would start to move so I thought it would never align perfectly.. thought that was part of the design.
It starts really well and is wicked smooth running.. Doesn't cough or skip one bit..no engine light comes on or anything. So I must of done something right. Maybe I'm just lucky then.
So confusing lol.
didn't want to start a new thread
didn't want to start a new thread
Is there a special way to remove that crank timing gear? I pulled and pulled and it wouldn't budge. I tried wedging a flathead behind it and i can't get it to move..
The lip of the oil pan make fitting a puller in there kinda hard..
Is there a special puller or tool i could use to help get that off?
Thanks again
didn't want to start a new thread
Is there a special way to remove that crank timing gear? I pulled and pulled and it wouldn't budge. I tried wedging a flathead behind it and i can't get it to move..
The lip of the oil pan make fitting a puller in there kinda hard..
Is there a special puller or tool i could use to help get that off?
Thanks again
zorrex
Enjoys the Abuse
Why did you want to take off the crank timing gear?
Why did you want to take off the crank timing gear?
Because a previous person obviously worked on this car before. That spacer is in the wrong spot. Its between the crank pulley and the timing gear, but it should be between the timing gear and the oil pump. I think thats the reason why my timing belt is riding way too close to the engine and wearing a groove in it
I tried with a flathead, but that thing will NOT budge
Because a previous person obviously worked on this car before. That spacer is in the wrong spot. Its between the crank pulley and the timing gear, but it should be between the timing gear and the oil pump. I think thats the reason why my timing belt is riding way too close to the engine and wearing a groove in it
I tried with a flathead, but that thing will NOT budge
You are right. Just recently I took my whole engine apart and that spacer should be between the timing gear and the oil pump(I have a round mark on my oil pump from it.)
To get that gear out make sure that the key is sitting really good in that notch.(I had to hit mine back in) Also put the pulley screw back in and get a hold of a "pulley puller." Autozone , Checkers might lend it , if not Harbor Freight tools will have it for sure.I couldn't fit a puller because it was to big and the oil pump sits close to it... but I got it out with a tool that my friend had..damn I forgot the name...One end goes under the gear and you pump a handle up and down. ..Last time I got it out by yanking the crap out of my oil pump..It is aluminum and it could break easily..only do this if you are replacing the oil pump as well.Spray a bunch of PB spray and let it sit for a while.. Let us know if it fixes your belt problem. Hope I didn't confuse you to much.
You are right. Just recently I took my whole engine apart and that spacer should be between the timing gear and the oil pump(I have a round mark on my oil pump from it.)
To get that gear out make sure that the key is sitting really good in that notch.(I had to hit mine back in) Also put the pulley screw back in and get a hold of a "pulley puller." Autozone , Checkers might lend it , if not Harbor Freight tools will have it for sure.I couldn't fit a puller because it was to big and the oil pump sits close to it... but I got it out with a tool that my friend had..damn I forgot the name...One end goes under the gear and you pump a handle up and down. ..Last time I got it out by yanking the crap out of my oil pump..It is aluminum and it could break easily..only do this if you are replacing the oil pump as well.Spray a bunch of PB spray and let it sit for a while.. Let us know if it fixes your belt problem. Hope I didn't confuse you to much.
So autozone has a small 3 jaw 2-ton puller do you think that will work?
(wow, i reached 100 posts)
Yepp...that washer is between the crank gear and engine block. The crank gear says "front" on it too. That would for sure make the belt ride to close to the engine, because I believe that washer is like an adjusting spacer to make the belt ride in the right place. Whoever worked on it before was careless and didn't care about double checking so good thing you noticed this.
Try soaking it with oil and like acountour said.. ping that keyway down a little and see if it loosens up. I was lucky, mine slipped off easily.
Try soaking it with oil and like acountour said.. ping that keyway down a little and see if it loosens up. I was lucky, mine slipped off easily.
I've never seen the exhaust cam line up again on a VCT Zetec after rotating the crank by hand. Yes, I'm doing it right. Yes the cam is set against the stop when I put the lock tool in. For some reason, even though there is a return spring, it seems to need oil pressure to help the spring. You can even hear air being pushed out if you drain the oil from the VCT hub and then turn it by hand. Some of you may have even noticed the cam 'flop' when turning the engine by hand.