bhiggs89
Veteran CEG'er
You aren't using boost all the time...thats what the wastegate and blow-off valves are for.
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Non-intercooled kit
- Thread starter svtfan22
- Start date
You aren't using boost all the time...thats what the wastegate and blow-off valves are for.
Positive manifold preasure (aka boost) is not just a function of RPM or exhaust "flow". The turbine speed is greatly increased by the exhaust preasure difference on each side of the turbine wheel.
It is completely possible to drive a turbo car around all day and NEVER build boost.
Wikipedia...
"The turbine section of a turbocharger is a heat engine in itself. It converts the heat energy from the exhaust to power, which then drives the compressor, compressing ambient air and delivering it to the air intake manifold of the engine at higher pressure, resulting in a greater mass of air entering each cylinder."
and
"The time required to bring the turbo up to a speed where it can function effectively is called turbo lag. This is noticed as a hesitation in throttle response when coming off idle. This is symptomatic of the time taken for the exhaust system driving the turbine to come to high pressure and for the turbine rotor to overcome its rotational inertia and reach the speed necessary to supply boost pressure."
At highway speeds the "...time taken for the exhaust system driving the turbine to come to high pressure..." is very minimal, full boost can be achieved with partial throttle. Hence why cruise control can be "surgy"...the car accelerates much faster than it would in stock form. The cruise control module is assuming a stock engine and applies the stock necessary amount of throttle to increase speed.
Wastegates come into play when the conditions to produce boost are already present. They divert excess exhaust around the turbine wheel, thus limiting its speed and boost creation potential.
It is completely possible to drive a turbo car around all day and NEVER build boost.
Wikipedia...
"The turbine section of a turbocharger is a heat engine in itself. It converts the heat energy from the exhaust to power, which then drives the compressor, compressing ambient air and delivering it to the air intake manifold of the engine at higher pressure, resulting in a greater mass of air entering each cylinder."
and
"The time required to bring the turbo up to a speed where it can function effectively is called turbo lag. This is noticed as a hesitation in throttle response when coming off idle. This is symptomatic of the time taken for the exhaust system driving the turbine to come to high pressure and for the turbine rotor to overcome its rotational inertia and reach the speed necessary to supply boost pressure."
At highway speeds the "...time taken for the exhaust system driving the turbine to come to high pressure..." is very minimal, full boost can be achieved with partial throttle. Hence why cruise control can be "surgy"...the car accelerates much faster than it would in stock form. The cruise control module is assuming a stock engine and applies the stock necessary amount of throttle to increase speed.
Wastegates come into play when the conditions to produce boost are already present. They divert excess exhaust around the turbine wheel, thus limiting its speed and boost creation potential.
Blackcoog
Hard-core CEG'er
Huh - I guess I have no clue how boost is produced when driving then...I drive ~105 miles round trip to work and back, most 75mph driving. I thought that would kill a motor with boost, but I forget to realize there are a ton of factory boosted cars that do just fine.... :crazy:
Similarly in my setup when at cruising speeds I'm not boosting. The supercharger may be making minimal boost at cruise idle but the Apexi BOV is dumping the extra air. I think I'm going to switch to a bypass and run a tube to dump the air down below the car or find a way to quiet the BOV down. The bypass would technically still be a BOV but it would accomplish what I'm setting out to do. It's too loud for me.
KyleQ
Hard-core CEG'er
<insert tech here>
Thanks for that info - now I've got no excuse not to do it:laugh:
elraido
I kant speel
DAMN Pup for selling the turbo kit before I got the car!!!!!! He was right, I am getting the itch to mod it now...after I said I doubt it. LOL
DAMN Pup for selling the turbo kit before I got the car!!!!!! He was right, I am getting the itch to mod it now...after I said I doubt it. LOL
which one? I think he bought and sold more then one turbo kit for the car. I know because I got some of the piping off of him for my kit.
elraido
I kant speel
which one? I think he bought and sold more then one turbo kit for the car. I know because I got some of the piping off of him for my kit.
What ever one he was going to include with the car. I basically had him fix the slave cyl instead.
warmonger
Hard-core CEG'er
Sweet - I'm hopeful to be above that 235 due to the full 3L and supporting mods already done to the car. As soon as the SVT is off of daily driving I'll make the purchase.
Anything bad about driving the car in cruise control under boost? I mean - probably going to be doing 75+ for about an hour... bad?
Like ShoGofast said, you will still want to be cautious about turning the boost up but overall the tune should adapt itself fine.
Just for your edification: 3.5psi boost in the wastegate on my old 3L with intercooler yielded:
246/220 wHP/TQ and this is with the same high-boost tune; i.e. retarded ignition timing.
The boost was so low the intercooler probably did next to nothing since it was a water-to-air and could potentially have warmed the air somewhat over ambient at low pressures.
With a 3L non-intercooled on 4psi you can probably expect about the same, 250wHP and even more torque than I had.
You almost don't need much timing retard at all on 4psi or less boost with high octane fuel.
So yes, I'm saying with a 3.5psi spring and high octane, fuel you could probably run with a stock tune and make really good power, especially since stock tunes run notoriously rich. This goes for the standard 2.5L engines as well but obviously they'd be running in the low 200's wHP range.
striker2
Official CEG Vendor
what about injector sizing? could you stay with the 19lb injectors or would you recommend going up to 24lbs, assuming you just want to keep it at the low boost level on a 2.5 or 3L?
Blackcoog
Hard-core CEG'er
what about injector sizing? could you stay with the 19lb injectors or would you recommend going up to 24lbs, assuming you just want to keep it at the low boost level on a 2.5 or 3L?
While 19's can be pushed fairly high go with 24's so you have some head room and don't end up overstressing the 19's to the point where one fails and takes the motor with it. I had a customer run 17's in a 3L swap and the injector failed. Motor hydrolocked and they needed another 3L. I did tell them up front that 17's would be pushing it and recommended 19's.
KyleQ
Hard-core CEG'er
Like ShoGofast said, you will still want to be cautious about turning the boost up but overall the tune should adapt itself fine.
Just for your edification: 3.5psi boost in the wastegate on my old 3L with intercooler yielded:
246/220 wHP/TQ and this is with the same high-boost tune; i.e. retarded ignition timing.
The boost was so low the intercooler probably did next to nothing since it was a water-to-air and could potentially have warmed the air somewhat over ambient at low pressures.
With a 3L non-intercooled on 4psi you can probably expect about the same, 250wHP and even more torque than I had.
You almost don't need much timing retard at all on 4psi or less boost with high octane fuel.
So yes, I'm saying with a 3.5psi spring and high octane, fuel you could probably run with a stock tune and make really good power, especially since stock tunes run notoriously rich. This goes for the standard 2.5L engines as well but obviously they'd be running in the low 200's wHP range.
Perfect - I still don't have a tune, but if I get one it will be easy to go back and have them tweak it for the setup. Running boost without a specific boost tune seem tarted to me.. why chance it?
svtfan22
CEG'er
Ok so any one got any idea how much it would be to get just the piping required for an intercooler? Just thought that I would ask here first before bothering the guys at NPG as they are pretty busy plus I'm not quite ready to purchase my kit yet so if I don't get any answer I'll ask when I order the kit.
BAD SVT
Addicted CEG'er
Ok so any one got any idea how much it would be to get just the piping required for an intercooler? Just thought that I would ask here first before bothering the guys at NPG as they are pretty busy plus I'm not quite ready to purchase my kit yet so if I don't get any answer I'll ask when I order the kit.
i cant give u an exact price, but it couldnt be much i'd imagine. if u can afford the non-intercooled kit, the piping wont be an issue.
Blackcoog
Hard-core CEG'er
i cant give u an exact price, but it couldnt be much i'd imagine. if u can afford the non-intercooled kit, the piping wont be an issue.
The piping I sell with my supercharger kit costs about $250. It's polished aluminum piping and I have a lot of piping. I thought the Nautilus piping was painted steel but it looks like they have stainless listed. For normal steel I'd guess in the $100-$150 range. Stainless piping could be much more.
svtfan22
CEG'er
Thanks guys appreciate it.
The piping I sell with my supercharger kit costs about $250. It's polished aluminum piping and I have a lot of piping. I think the Nautilus piping is painted steel. I'd guess in the $100-$150 range.
I would think wayyy more than that. Just look at the price difference between the IC and non-IC kits. Its not the materials costs, its the bending and welding costs.
svtfan22
CEG'er
That is the reason that I asked this question because I cant see why there is such a difference in the price if the piping only cost say 250$. 1200$ is big difference for just those pipes so it must be the amount of work that goes into fitting those pipes that raises the cost. Just speculation but it would seem that way.
I bought piping from joey to add to my arizona dyno chip kit.
(Note: what I got from Nautilus is different than just ordering an intercooler after-the-fact. My kit started out a bit different than the base NPG kit would)
They are very high quality. Stainless steel, superb welds and fitment is spot on. You pay for that kind of quality. There is little room for those parts to be irregular. Stuff wouldn't fit together if they were off.
(Note: what I got from Nautilus is different than just ordering an intercooler after-the-fact. My kit started out a bit different than the base NPG kit would)
They are very high quality. Stainless steel, superb welds and fitment is spot on. You pay for that kind of quality. There is little room for those parts to be irregular. Stuff wouldn't fit together if they were off.
Blackcoog
Hard-core CEG'er
I bought piping from joey to add to my arizona dyno chip kit.
(Note: what I got from Nautilus is different than just ordering an intercooler after-the-fact. My kit started out a bit different than the base NPG kit would)
They are very high quality. Stainless steel, superb welds and fitment is spot on. You pay for that kind of quality. There is little room for those parts to be irregular. Stuff wouldn't fit together if they were off.
If the piping is stainless then cost would go way above my estimate.