Just my thoughts, what do you think?

[striker2]

I am glad this topic came up it has alot of good info without it turning into a fight about which is better.

I am so glad that everyone is being so civil about this this time. probably 9 times out 10 (maybe more) these discussions break down in just a big pissing match.


anyways, I do agree that drag numbers arent the most important thing, however having had the pleasure of owning a Zetec, a turbo Zetec, an SVT 2.5L and a 3L I will say the following. while all engines are very capable of making way more power than this platform can handle, I much preferred the Zetecs powerband over the duratec, both in N/A and turbo forms as well as the handling.

for the power, the Zetecs powerband feels much better suited to the gear ratios, IMO of course, than the Duratec, especially in turbo form. while the Duratec does have a nice long, relatively flat torque curve, the Zetec builds all the way to ~4500RPM where it peaks and flattens out (or starts to drop slightly if boosted without cam gears). the HP is then sufficient to pull all the way to redline, without feeling like it just falls on its face, at which point you shift and you are now right back around that peak torque point. I also feel that the 2.5L Duratec lacks severely in the torque department (especially the SVT), only ~170 lb-ft of torque with 200HP? perhaps thats part of why the Zetec feels like its faster than it was, but also made it more fun to drive, is because it made more torque than it did power. as for the difference between a modded Zetec and an SE V6, the V6 does make a little more power to the wheels, but its added weight (about 200-300lbs) and lower speed shift points (due to the higher FD ratio) means the Zetec is just as fast.

now for the handling. again, im probably one of the few people on here than can truly compare the handling between the Zetec and Duratec cars because not only did I have both, I actually had the exact same setup on both cars. Both cars had 19mm rear sway bars (SVT was stock while the Zetec had the BAT 19mm bar), both cars had rear strut tower braces, and both cars had the exact same struts/springs, Konis w/GCs (actually moved them from the Zetec to the SVT to install the Ksports on the Zetec). again, both cars were very capable in the corners, but the Duratec just felt more nose heavy and plowed a little easier, while the Zetec felt much more neutral and tossable. I suspect that difference came from the increased weight of the SVT, part of which is from the engine (only about 100lbs before someone goes claiming they weigh the same ) but mostly because of the extra options. things like power driver seat, sunroof, folding rear seats even, all add extra weight. while most of that extra weight was between the axles, it was just enough different to change the balance of the car.

Now for a real world comparison, not a drag strip but rather The Dragon and the The Cherahola Skyway. I have driven both N/A and turbo Zetec as well as the 2.5L SVT down there. obviously the turbo Zetec was the most fun, it did have the most power after all, but even the N/A Zetec seemed like more fun than the SVT. in either setup, I could brake later (the Zetec had the SVT brake brackets and rear disc conversion, also had the same pads EBC red stuff pads that got moved to the SVT before it went down to the Dragon), get on the power sooner and throw it into the corners harder with the Zetec than i could with the SVT. obviously I dont have timed runs to compare, and they wouldnt really matter anyways since we were in a group and you can only go as fast as the person in front of you. now, since the turns are so tight that you would have to down shift to 2nd, you always ended up in the middle of the RPM band when getting back on the power, right were the Zetec peaks. this meant that while the Duratec does have that increased low end torque, it was never used, and short of taking off from a stop or making a turn onto a side street, I rarely had the RPMs low enough in the SVT to put that extra grunt to use, even in the real world. The Zetec on the other hand, especially the turbo Zetec, made all its torque higher up, so it was actually used. with the turbo, even if you had to drop to say 2500RPMs for a turn, if you punched it the boost was there and you were gone, even the 3L with its extra torque over the 2.5 wasnt like that.


now dont get me wrong, it may sound like im claiming the Zetec makes more torque than the Duratec higher up, we all know thats not true (unless its a turbo Zetec). however comparing the numbers, the Zetec actually isnt that far off the non-SVT 2.5L in HP/L or TQ/L, especially a lightly modded Zetec. Lightly modded Zetec should be about 140-145 BHP which makes it ~70-72BHP/L and with 130TQ is ~65TQ/L while the non-SVT 2.5 makes 170BHP or ~68BHP/L and 165TQ which is ~66TQ/L. A stock Zetec makes the same torque but a little less HP at 125, so that would be ~62.5BHP/L. The biggest difference is the shape of the curve itself, the Duratecs is nice and flat, which does make for smooth acceleration, but the semi-peakiness of the Zetec was just more fun to drive.


so, to conclude, I believe that the Zetec was just more fun to drive (and has certainly proven more reliable) than the Duratec. not necessarily faster (unless its turboed and then not only is it more fun but also faster), just more fun. If I still had my old Zetec I would not hesitate to let anyone come and drive it and see just how much fun the Zetec can be (ask icysvt or Hectik how much fun my turbo Zetec was).

edit: didnt realize how long it was already. :laugh:

another point, my brother has a 00 ZX3 (obviously with the Zetec and 5 speed) that i had originally bought to be a cheap, fun beater. it needed some trans work when i got it (stuck in 2nd gear) but that was fine since i only paid $700 to have it delivered to me. got it all fixed up and drove it and it was a massive reminder of just how much i loved driving the old Zetec. so much fun for such a low price. so much so that I have started looking for another cheap Zetec to have as a second car (not that i can afford one right now but thats not the point). the point is, that i would gladly trade my VR4 (or the SVT when i had it) for another pre98 Zetec Contour (and some cash so i could turbo it). it was just so much fun to drive, never had problems (until after i built it and all that was caused by my piston choice, so my doing not the engine), and got great gas mileage. 2 of those things i still dont have with the VR4 and its not the first one, but i was lacking all 3 with the SVT (although the 3L was more fun than the 2.5, it still just wasnt as fun as the old Zetec).

 

[striker2]

here is a great example of what the Zetec is capable of. now this isnt going into a Contour, or even a Focus, but rather its getting mated to an AWD MT75 (not the MTX75) and is going in a mk6 Fiesta. just check out how quickly the torque ramps up, but notice it does exactly what i said (ramps up till about 4500 then flattens out). over 500HP and also ~375TQ for over 3000RPMs.
http://forums.focaljet.com/forced-i...32-zetec-turbo-across-shores.html#post7335724

:drool::drool::drool::drool::drool:

 

[gorman]

here is a great example of what the Zetec is capable of. now this isnt going into a Contour, or even a Focus, but rather its getting mated to an AWD MT75 (not the MTX75) and is going in a mk6 Fiesta.:drool::drool::drool::drool::drool:

Dan, all i can say is WOW !!! i've just sat here for 20mins just trying to imagine what it must be like driving a 600hp fiesta that weighs sod all. I love the new interpretation of multi point injection !! I hope one day to see that thing giving it some between our omnipresent gatso's ....G.

 

[Desiato]

...but the Duratec just felt more nose heavy and plowed a little easier, while the Zetec felt much more neutral and tossable. I suspect that difference came from the increased weight of the SVT, part of which is from the engine (only about 100lbs before someone goes claiming they weigh the same ) but mostly because of the extra options. things like power driver seat, sunroof, folding rear seats even, all add extra weight. while most of that extra weight was between the axles, it was just enough different to change the balance of the car.

Is it possible your SVT felt more nose-heavy because of the reduced front sway bar on SVT Contours? My SVT feels more nose heavy than my V6 Mystique, and that's my theory as to why.

I really respect your opinion, knowledge and experience. However, much of your reasoning seems subjective to me. For example, you prefer the Zetec powerband, just as some people prefer the Escape 3L powerband and others enjoy revving up the SVT 2.5L and gaining power all the way; such as myself.

The amenities are not something I'd sacrifice in my SVT, even if they reduce its handling, but it's certainly possible to do so; therefore a Zetec Contour GL's lack of features isn't an actual advantage.

 

[95_Mystique]

What's stock SE 2.5L Duratec WHP? 145? Depending on the actual weight and power differences, the stock SE 2.5 is still ahead by 7-9% in terms of HP/Pound. $400 gets you a lot of SVT bits now, which including injectors and PCM would push it into SVT territory. The four wheel disc brakes of the Duratec Contour are a nice bonus too.


That's well into fringe modder territory. And when it comes to a Contour Zetec, very theoretical because it's never come close to happening. I'm really not one to debate it, but it seems to me that a Turbo Duratec will get you closer to that number for less money though; a beaten path other Contour owners have been down before.

I stand by my argument that for the vast majority of Contour enthusiasts, an SE or SVT Duratec is your best bet for a quick, reliable DD.

I disagree with a lot of what you said. While the Duratec makes more power stock, it also weighs more. Also, with a fully built Zetec, you'll have a more reliable car with 500 HP compared to a Duratec. You can also buy a Zetec for much cheaper, do a rear disc swap, and a few other mods and have a car that handles and accelerates just as well while getting better gas mileage.

i don't see how the pre98 zetec is any better than the post98 VCT zetec. they are both capable engines. lets not forget that the FSVT is a VCT zetec, the VCT version just requires a little more pampering.

Pre98's have a different shifter linkage which is much more durable, and the VCT's are a little more of a pain to work on. The diferentals in the Pre98's are also a lot stronger. Also the FSVT's didnt have the same VCT setup as the Post98 Contours and Escorts. They had VCT on the intake cam. Other focus's that were Zetec powered didnt have VCT, and are easier to adjust the timing with adj. cam gears.

I am so glad that everyone is being so civil about this this time. probably 9 times out 10 (maybe more) these discussions break down in just a big pissing match.

It's cuz i told them i didnt want anyone to fight over it. Its just stating opinions and discussing which Contour is best and why.

Is it possible your SVT felt more nose-heavy because of the reduced front sway bar on SVT Contours? My SVT feels more nose heavy than my V6 Mystique, and that's my theory as to why.

If you read what Striker2 posted, he had the same size swaybar on both cars. Infact the exact same suspension setup. So i doubt it was the sway bar.

 

[CSVT#49]

One thing that is nice here is that, from what I noticed anyway, Zetec engine parts are all over the place thanks to the popularity of the Focus. Not to mention I believe the Zetec engine is used all over the place in Europe. This also drives the price of all of these parts down because there is a lot of competition in the market for them. With my build I've had to purchase plenty of custom parts. Zetec parts are, for the most part, regularly stocked items and are off the shelf for many suppliers. So yes it is very easy to build a robust Zetec that will produce. However at the end of the day there is more potential from the Duratec engine because you have a better starting point. However it will cost you more, which is why I have right around $8k in my engine build.

Now in regards to what was said about my build cost being in the ballpark of $13k. While this is correct... step back for a minute and think about this... the 1998 SVT Contour MSRP was $22,460. I bought my car for $600... with all of the modifications I have into it... I still will be well under that $22,460. I will have a car that will be something I built and will be something I can be proud of and show off. It will have the power and performance of cars that cost plenty more then what I have into it and it will be unique.

Now that said I probably could have built a Zetec engine to get me to the horsepower goals of my build, but if all goes well... I may want to step it up even more. That could cause some serious work for a Zetec, more so then what it will be for me with my Duratec (IMO of course).

EDIT:

:laugh: Now if you want to even take this another step further I could go to my Camaro and purchase a set of twin turbo's and put half the money I did into my SVT and I would have dang near 1000whp hahaha. Oh well...

 

[Desiato]

I disagree with a lot of what you said. While the Duratec makes more power stock, it also weighs more. Also, with a fully built Zetec, you'll have a more reliable car with 500 HP compared to a Duratec. You can also buy a Zetec for much cheaper, do a rear disc swap, and a few other mods and have a car that handles and accelerates just as well while getting better gas mileage.

The extra HP of the duratec more than makes up for the weight difference of roughly 100lbs. Like I said previously, even with the mods Striker referenced, the stock 2.5L Contour has at least 7-10% more HP per pound.

For the price difference between a Zetec and a Duratec Contour, you'd spend much more in total to get the former to perform as well as the latter. And a lot of work. Not worth it for most people. For the same amount of work and money, you can add an SVT UIM, Intake, Injectors, PCM and more to an SE to push it significantly past your modded Zetec.

Wake me up when someone builds a 500HP Zetec Contour, and then we can see how reliable it is. Frankly, you have no idea how reliable Duratec Contours are. The feel you get from forums is no replacement for hard data. Also consider that because of the nature of the car SVT's were often beat on and most of the people performing swaps here are, perhaps, almost dangerously under-qualified for the kind of work they're doing -- especially the people porting matching.

Generally speaking, a modded car is far less reliable than stock. It's just the nature of the beast. So no, I wouldn't assume your modded car is more reliable than a configuration Ford tested under countless conditions for countless hours.

If you read what Striker2 posted, he had the same size swaybar on both cars. Infact the exact same suspension setup. So i doubt it was the sway bar.

And if you read his post, you'd see he referenced the rear sway bar and not the front. If Zetec Contours also have a smaller front sway bar than regular Duratec contours, this is still relevant due to the slightly heavier engine that its weight is relative to. The sway bar in the SVT Contour was reduced to improve traction and steering consistency, but increases roll which some people don't like.

Perhaps a modded Zetec is best for you, but I'd say it's not the case for most CEG members or Contour owners. Most have chosen the Duratec because it is faster in base form. Most wouldn't want to put the time and money into their cars that you have and still have a slower vehicle than a stock Duratec Contour.

There is more to this argument than performance. Amenities also play a role. Not only are SVT's quick, but they're also very comfortable, look nice and the mods mesh very well as they were selected by a team of engineers renowned for making fun, sporty cars.

 

[striker2]

Is it possible your SVT felt more nose-heavy because of the reduced front sway bar on SVT Contours? My SVT feels more nose heavy than my V6 Mystique, and that's my theory as to why.

while possible the difference between a 19 and 20mm bar isnt much. of course, since i dont have dimensions I cant tell you how much different it is. perhaps tomorrow i can try to get some measurements off the SVT thats sitting in my garage.

I really respect your opinion, knowledge and experience. However, much of your reasoning seems subjective to me. For example, you prefer the Zetec powerband, just as some people prefer the Escape 3L powerband and others enjoy revving up the SVT 2.5L and gaining power all the way; such as myself.

isnt that what this is all about? whats best to one person is entirely subjective. as such im giving my subjective opinion, especially since I have owned both. that opinion happens to be that even with similar mods (Intake/Exhaust/suspension) the Zetec was much more fun to drive. You obviously dont agree, but have you driven an MTX zetec with those mods? im guess probably not (although i could be wrong).

The amenities are not something I'd sacrifice in my SVT, even if they reduce its handling, but it's certainly possible to do so; therefore a Zetec Contour GL's lack of features isn't an actual advantage.

what real amenities did the SVT get over other models? the only real difference from other options on lesser models are the bolsters on the seats themselves, which honestly arent that great. they just arent big enough to truely hold you in the seat with the leather. i found myself having to expend more energy into holding myself into the SVT seats than i did the standard seats. im sure most of that is due to the leather instead of the cloth, as i know its not because i was going any slower. no matter why, i was much more worn out at the end of a day of hard driving in the SVT than i was in the Zetec.

 

[striker2]

The extra HP of the duratec more than makes up for the weight difference of roughly 100lbs. Like I said previously, even with the mods Striker referenced, the stock 2.5L Contour has at least 7-10% more HP per pound.

do the math again. the Zetec engine weighs about 253 lbs while the Duratec 2.5 and 3L weighs about 360lbs. even in stock trim the Zetec engine has a better HP/lb than the non-SVT 2.5L. 125/253=~.494 170/360=~.472 200/360=~.555 lightly modded Zetec will be about 145BHP (based on dynos and knowing about how much power the average MTX75 sucks) so, 145/253=~.573

For the price difference between a Zetec and a Duratec Contour, you'd spend much more in total to get the former to perform as well as the latter. And a lot of work. Not worth it for most people. For the same amount of work and money, you can add an SVT UIM, Intake, Injectors, PCM and more to an SE to push it significantly past your modded Zetec.

you can find Zetec MTXs for less than $1000. add $200-$300 worth of parts and have a car that is just as fast as the non-SVT duratec.

Wake me up when someone builds a 500HP Zetec Contour, and then we can see how reliable it is. Frankly, you have no idea how reliable Duratec Contours are. The feel you get from forums is no replacement for hard data. Also consider that because of the nature of the car SVT's were often beat on and most of the people performing swaps here are, perhaps, almost dangerously under-qualified for the kind of work they're doing -- especially the people porting matching.

I could say the same thing about building a 500HP Duratec Contour and see how reliable it is. consider that because of the lesser cost of the Zetec, they were often beat on, but i would bet they still ran like a champ. I do agree with the rest of that statement though.

Generally speaking, a modded car is far less reliable than stock. It's just the nature of the beast. So no, I wouldn't assume your modded car is more reliable than a configuration Ford tested under countless conditions for countless hours.

sure, but light mods such as intake/exhaust/UDP arent going change the reliability.

Perhaps a modded Zetec is best for you, but I'd say it's not the case for most CEG members or Contour owners. Most have chosen the Duratec because it is faster in base form. Most wouldn't want to put the time and money into their cars that you have and still have a slower vehicle than a stock Duratec Contour.

you are stuck on the Zetec being slower than a stock Duratec, even with some cheap basic mods. Yet, you said earlier that 0-60 and drag times are overrated. seems contradictory to first claim those times are overrated and then go on and on about the power and how the Duratec is faster stock than a lightly modded Zetec, which just isnt true.

There is more to this argument than performance. Amenities also play a role. Not only are SVT's quick, but they're also very comfortable, look nice and the mods mesh very well as they were selected by a team of engineers renowned for making fun, sporty cars.

they arent any more comfortable than the non-SVT. now the looks i do agree with, the SVT body kit is the best looking, but that can be had on a non-SVT (with any engine) easily enough. not sure what mods you are talking about, suspension? if one is going to upgrade it anyways then what you started with doesnt really matter. seats, body kit, and power have already been covered.

 

[alwayssideways]

Zetecs are a great engine. I believe (and this is not proven ) but the pre 98 can handle more on the stock internals than the post 98's. I forgot who I was talking to about this. I think it might have been turbotour , but the internals of the pre 98's are beefy. The rod caps are almost twice the thickness as the post 98's for instance.

I would have to say in a contour the v6 is definitely a better starting point due to the weight of the car. In a zx2 its perfect. It will always come down to a hp to weight ratio. I have 215hp in my zx2. 215 in a 2k+lbs car will be faster than 215 in a 3k lbs . I like the zetec as long as it is in a platform that can benefit from it .

 

[cetroutt]

Pre98's have a different shifter linkage which is much more durable, and the VCT's are a little more of a pain to work on. The diferentals in the Pre98's are also a lot stronger. Also the FSVT's didnt have the same VCT setup as the Post98 Contours and Escorts. They had VCT on the intake cam. Other focus's that were Zetec powered didnt have VCT, and are easier to adjust the timing with adj. cam gears.

thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Desiato]

do the math again. the Zetec engine weighs about 253 lbs while the Duratec 2.5 and 3L weighs about 360lbs. even in stock trim the Zetec engine has a better HP/lb than the non-SVT 2.5L. 125/253=~.494 170/360=~.472 200/360=~.555 lightly modded Zetec will be about 145BHP (based on dynos and knowing about how much power the average MTX75 sucks) so, 145/253=~.573

I wasn't referring to the HP/lb of the engines. What's relevant is the total weight of the cars with the engines installed.

you can find Zetec MTXs for less than $1000. add $200-$300 worth of parts and have a car that is just as fast as the non-SVT duratec.

With how cheap these cars are these days, I haven't observed a huge difference in the price between the Duratec and Zetec trims. And perhaps a lightly modded zetec gets into the same territory as a Duratec, but I disagree it would be as quick. I don't think this is going to be proven either way. And again, with $2-300, it's easy to add power to a stock 2.5 with now cheap SVT parts.

I could say the same thing about building a 500HP Duratec Contour and see how reliable it is. consider that because of the lesser cost of the Zetec, they were often beat on, but i would bet they still ran like a champ. I do agree with the rest of that statement though.

I wouldn't want to count on amateur builds of either as a DD. I was countering another statement, not proclaiming which built engine is more reliable.

sure, but light mods such as intake/exhaust/UDP arent going change the reliability.

Maybe not professionally done, but joe blow shadetree mechanic can make countless mistakes; even something like nicking a hose or a belt.

you are stuck on the Zetec being slower than a stock Duratec, even with some cheap basic mods. Yet, you said earlier that 0-60 and drag times are overrated. seems contradictory to first claim those times are overrated and then go on and on about the power and how the Duratec is faster stock than a lightly modded Zetec, which just isnt true.

I'm not contradicting myself at all. I prefer a faster car, but fast launches aren't important to me. I drive pretty quick overall, but I'm not chirping my tires at every red light.

they arent any more comfortable than the non-SVT. now the looks i do agree with, the SVT body kit is the best looking, but that can be had on a non-SVT (with any engine) easily enough. not sure what mods you are talking about, suspension? if one is going to upgrade it anyways then what you started with doesnt really matter. seats, body kit, and power have already been covered.

The comfort level of SVT seats is completely subjective, but my opinion is that the general consensus is that they're extremely comfortable. It seems that some people have an issue staying planted in them, but I don't have that problem. I do think that the stock SVT suspension is a good balance for a DD and fits well with the power level of the car. In any case, I wasn't referring to SVT specific amenities. I was referring to the amenities that increase the estimated weight difference between your former base GL Zetec and a Duratec SE from the roughly 110lbs difference in weight to the 200-250lbs number that gets thrown around. I like my leather power seats, moonroof, power windows, etc.. I rarely use my AC, but it's a practical requirement here during the summer for a DD.

I have absolutely nothing against the Zetec. I think it's a fine engine. It's been proven to reliably put up big numbers with boost on other platforms. But what I'm saying is that all things considered, the Duratec Contour is a better starting point for most Contour enthusiasts. A Contour enthusiast doesn't imply any mechanical ability or inclinations for such. It means someone who enjoys driving and owning a Contour -- or Mystique. Whether I'm right or wrong about the merits of a lightly modded Zetec doesn't change my POV. As a four door (sports) sedan, you can make the assumption that it will have practical requirements as a DD for most of its owners. Therefore comfort and reliability are also factors. Light mods or not, I think that once modified, you've introduced an x-factor. If the designed power levels can be found in stock form, I think it makes more sense for most owners to right-size on purchase.

 

[royalblue]

I own both ,pre 98 Duratec and Zetec 5 speeds .and both have their own place
stock Duratec>Zetec
exhaust sound Duratec:drool:>Zetec:shrug:
maintenance chain>belt
amenities> very few
That said I can see how a nicely modded Zetec (suspension ,brakes , wheels ,tires ) could be a fun ride.
and if you want a drag car better options are out there
0.02

 

[Tourgasm]

Why Pre'98 Zetec's are better...

Please stop using apostrophes for plurals. It's never ever ever ever right.
It's not just you. it's everywhere on this site. This was just the straw that broke the camel's back.
C'mon guys, Can we at least get a firm grasp on our own language?

 

[95_Mystique]

LMAO, sorry...

 

[elraido]

The reliability of the duratec really shouldn't be questioned. I was up to over 200K miles on my SE on original drivetrain...it is still on the road. Big Jim had a stupid amount of miles on his. Blu_fuz had over 200K on his. Take care of it and it will take care of you.

My full 3.0L NEVER had a problem in the lower range....even in 5th gear, if I wanted to pass someone, put the gas down and away it would go. No need to down shift, no need to keep the RPM's up to be in the "power band". Not only that but I was able to get 35 mpg out of it on the highway.