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Hybrid or Straight 3L

Lame mods or not, the vast majority of buyers out there will be gun-shy about anything that's been altered from stock. Whether its cheezy wire looms or a full-on engine swap, the car's no longer original, and there's often no way to easily know if the work was done properly. Sometimes it is, very often it isn't. I don't worry much about resale value, but I would be wary about being able to sell my car if it were not stock, and not maintained with authentic Motorcraft parts. Furthermore, I love Ford reliability. They've worked hard at FoMoCo to keep the car dependable and optimize drivablity -- I have no desire to alter that.

For what is worth, if I wanted a pavement melter that would go like hell without compromise, I'd set my sights on a 1968 Cougar XR7 with a 390, or perhaps a 1969 Galaxie XL with the 429 Thunder Jet, for example.
 
It doesn't seem like people are gun-shy whenever I sell my SVT's. I just sold my 1998 SVT for more than 95% of this website could ever get for there 2k SVT's. Why? Mods. and mods invented and installed by the greatest minds on CEG. Stazi, Steeda, Pudmunkie etc etc
 
LauraSVT said:
Ooh, ooh!! (raises hand) I have one!

Leave it bone stock. The way Ford intended. Our cars don't stand much of a chance at being worth big bucks, but almost without exception, cars that are modified from stock take a value hit. Furthermore, there's something just fantastic to me about owning and maintaining a car the way it rolled out of the factory -- in this case, Claycomo, MO. :cool:
Click to expand...

Ya, my Mystique dumped in value from $3000 to $2800 because of mods. I intend to keep the car a couple of years, but I'll never see that money again... :cry:
 
Tomorrow I'll visit the local Xcal dealer and find out if there's a version for my 95 EEC. If there isn't, I may look into using SVT parts and harness on the 95 without the performance cams. This way I haven't really molested the SVT. My 98 motor is also a return style fuel rail, so injecters from it ought to be usable on the nonSVT. My 95 was always eager to pull hard. I'll verify that the same Xcal part can manage the 3L I'll get when one comes around. Ford adaptive management controllers aren't the only option. I'm lucky enough to have the budget for an autonomous controller (the wives and kids are all gone these days). I haven't researched this enough yet to know which I'd pick. I know another custom builder who agrees that six dual Webers would look pretty neat on top. I'd need a glass hood for that.
But back on topic... and back to fuel injected manifolds. A version not mentioned yet in this thread is what I think is a split port 3L head without the water pump cam. Are these one of the hybrid configurations still being built by CEG members? It may not have the oil return features. Anybody able to confirm?

Gar
 
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You might ask, why not just use the 98 SVT motor. It has 150K miles on it, and I have history on the lower milage 95. Certainly moving the 98 harness over to the 95 for ECU flexibilty is a consideration. I've read that applying the SVT ECU to the non SVT motors makes them run nearly as good as an SVT.
The weekend research confirms that's it's the later EEC-V ECU that should be used over the 95. The shop owner has the 3L Taurus with the non-cam water pump. He plans on putting a 5 speed Contour trans in it. I'd had experience with the axles from both, so it was a nice way to build some repore with the guy for when it's time to use an x-cal mod. His Taurus is a 2000, and has the oval port. I'm still wondering, though out of curiousity, if there was a split port, better oil return version, 3L head.

I'm leaning strongly towards a 2001 - 200x straight 3L.
I'll adapt the crank pilot, and use a lighter flywheel.
I'll improve the inlet and exhaust breathing, and change injectors correspondingly.
I'll use a management enhancement to optimize the tune.
I might opt for the pressurized oil reservoir, and I'll use a remote filter and cooler.


All the fuss of adapting the SVT motor, or parts from it, doesn't seem as rash as the plan I've laid out for nearly equal return. Those last 500 or so revs that the SVT offers might only get me into more trouble anyway.

Engine changes aren't for a pretty long while. You can see the project, and my slow progress at the MySpace site I'd mentioned elswhere. Perhaps by the time I am ready for a motor change, Ford could have a go-fast cam in a 3L.

Gar
 
I like the oval port to split port matching... Yields just as good if not better power then the hybrid, more sane CRs.

I also believe the SVT cams are the way to go, puts your power where you would prefer it in the higher rpms (at least as a spirited driver). The non SVT cams may give you more out of the hole guts but as most of the 3L folks will tell you, its hard enough sticking the tires to the road anyways ;)


What you're thinking of is the older split port 3L, not a hybrid. What people consider to be "hybrids" are the 3L block with 2.5L Heads. Simple as that.
You can run the split port 3L with no problems you just need to run an electric water pump that will set you back another few hundred dollars. I personally like the original factor in the cam driven water pump though and I still recommend 01+ oval port with port matching.

And for the comments about leaving the car alone (kinda off topic anyhow). No modifications are good if you can't afford to do them the right way. It's nice to get things done in a cost saving matter but whatever you modify, it should be as good if not better than original when finished. My car has a salvage title. It's actual value is no where near what I value it at. It will just be staying with me for a long long time :) Problem solved.
 
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well so i jump into this great thread i just got a low mileage 45K "a lot lower than on my CSVT" 01 3.0 Vin S duratec from LKQ in orlando for 300 bucks and im very low budgeted i actually threw 3 outta 6 rods through the 2.5 svt block "pics on my phone comming soon" but i didn't ride my CSVT for almost a year and a half and it will be 18 months since she ran next month but i just got the balls to do something about it but the money is low with a family with 3 kids but im thinking a sull 3.0 swap is the less expensice way to go "if im wrong please tell me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" the power loss or gain i don't care about i need my CSVT back on the road for driving purposes mainly i have a motorcycle but you know it rains every day in fl durring the summer and i hate getting wet on the way to and from work ... but i know the fuel rail had to be "braised" <- a description of that would be great and the knock sensor has to be taped or re wired... and really thats my knowledge of it and i start tomorrow in re installing it so any help or info is needed call me or pm me 863-595-6132 Patrick <--me but really the hybrid sounds best i talk to sam a lot and he recomended that way but i priced out gaskets and things like that and i don't have the time for it or the cash ... but whatever works and gets u down the road sounds good to me ..
 
LauraSVT said:
Lame mods or not, the vast majority of buyers out there will be gun-shy about anything that's been altered from stock. Whether its cheezy wire looms or a full-on engine swap, the car's no longer original, and there's often no way to easily know if the work was done properly. Sometimes it is, very often it isn't. I don't worry much about resale value, but I would be wary about being able to sell my car if it were not stock, and not maintained with authentic Motorcraft parts. Furthermore, I love Ford reliability. They've worked hard at FoMoCo to keep the car dependable and optimize drivablity -- I have no desire to alter that.

For what is worth, if I wanted a pavement melter that would go like hell without compromise, I'd set my sights on a 1968 Cougar XR7 with a 390, or perhaps a 1969 Galaxie XL with the 429 Thunder Jet, for example.
Click to expand...

Im 90% sure that I can sell my car either in 3 liter + built trans, or 3 liter + built trans + turbo for probably 1.5 times what your car is worth...

But hey, you're factory:cool:
 
There is a lot of truth to the statement that mod'd cars are worth LESS money than a clean factory model. However it is not always the case with the SVTs. A well done hybrid whether oval heads or 2.5 heads is going to look like stock and feel better than stock in EVERY way, including getting essentially the same gas mileage for most drivers.
A full 3L drop-in in an SVT is a frgn disgrace IMO! You buy it if you want to but that would definitely cut resale value.

There is no single better hybrid package over another as long as each one is thought out and built to the achieve the goals you want. If you assume a stock block/piston/rod assembly, then you can run across many reliable combinations.

A hybrid 3L with 2.5L heads can come with High or low compression and 2.5L or 3L valves in the heads, 4 different combinations. A big portion of the success of the 2.5L hybrid is accomplished through proper porting of the intakes and the heads and installation of the 3L valves. This is actually the most superior head setup for the 3L hybrid because the intakes are true split ports all the way down and complements the factory system and tune. It can come in high compression for NA mods and low compression due to combustion chamber reshaping for boosted engines. Basically 11.25 all the way down to ~9.8:1 compression. NO ONE has proven that the heads are truly related to oil starvation on the big-end bearings even though the theory is out there.

An ovalport hybrid can come with 10:1 down to 9.8 or so compression with a little combustion chamber work and the head is quite opened up to flow well right from the factory. A proper port matching of the intakes and it will work well with less labor, though there is some debate about how well the secondaries work. I've got enough datalogs to show that the ovalport works very well though by comparison not as well in the low rpm ranges as the split-port 2.5L hybrid with big valves.

So I rank the swaps in terms of simplicity, peak power, overall Broad Powerband, and cost/labor.

-3L/2.5L Hybrid with big valves and portwork=best in broad powerband and equal to any other NA motor in Peak power. Highest cost in labor/time.
-3L/2.5L hybrid with no valve or portwork= cheapest and low cost in labor with the lowest peak power returns but reasonably broad powerband. Can be done with just a used 3L short-block.
-3L oval with 2.5L intakes minimal portwork= #2 choice with good overall powerband and peak power. Low cost but still requires a decent 3L Long-block, simple labor.
-3L oval with 2.5L intakes and extensive porting= equivalent to 3L/2.5L hybrid with big valves, except the low end portion of the powerband is a bit lower than the true hybrid from examples of dynos seen so far.
-3L drop in is a full 3L motor and basically it is a Taurus motor. More modifications to the CAR to accept it (none to the motor), cheap but some labor and fabrication. Power is middle of the road due to stock 3L cams and intakes and definitely not great on the top end. Engine bay less attractive and obviously not stock.
 
Thanks for that review. A neighbor thinks he could use my SVT motor if I decide to let it go. Your point regarding the oiling issue raises its value to me though. I'd planned on using the pressurized oil reserve system anyway because of the slosh I expect will occur the way I'll corner. I'm assuming that those first two options you listed use the SVT cams. Is this what you meant? Additionally for my clear understanding, those first two options also use the 2.5 split intake that match the head, correct? Your experience is valuable.

Gar
 
All examples used SVT cams except the latter.

The oiling issues/theory is greatly mitigated by installing clevite77 rod bearings and running an appropriate oil. In my opinion oil brand and weight is the greatest factor as well as running a quart over stock fill.
I ran my 3L hybrid with 2.5L heads and big valves for a year and a half N/A and then turbo'd it on top for another year before I swapped out to a later motor. I cornered as hard as anyone out here and I used stock bearings on that motor. I pulled them out and I still have the connecting rod and the bearing to this day just to keep proof of what almost 3 years of abuse would look like. There is no significant impact on the bearings. I believe it is because in the hot arizona heat I ran 10w40 winter and 20w50 oil in peak summer. On my later engines out of arizona I run 10w30 winter and 10w40 summer because I know how abusive I can be racing the car.
So many people I know have had no issues with the 2.5L heads and stock bearings.
If you've got the time then you can port your 2.5L heads out correctly to accept 3L valves, easily prep the block and set your compression at the level you want. While you are at it you can pull the factory pistons and install new ford rings and new clevite 77 rod bearings. I would not touch the main bearings because they are perfectly fine from stock power levels all the way to 400wHP levels.
This makes an affordable customized build if you can do the porting yourself. If not then you may want to reconsider going to an ovalport longblock and buying the intake plates or the new nautilusperformance lower intake that is coming out.
Mainly, pick you goals then see how much of it you can afford, and adjust until you have a solid plan. Then start your build.
 
I decided to go with the 3L block and heads with the 2.5L intake and cams. I think that it turned out really well, and feels a lot better. I don't know how well my stock clutch is holding up thou. Last night it felt like it slipped a little. I removed the secondaries, but have not gotten a tune from Warmonger yet, so I can still feel a power boost when the computer thinks that they open. In my oppinion this is the best swap. Looks stock, has more power and is not really time consuming.
 
I like the Hybrid setup with the 3L valves and porting except for the oil drainback concern. I understand it hasn't been proven but I like my Oval port 3L heads ported and matched to my 2.5 Intakes and think they will make similar power with a lower compression. I can't wait to get on a dyno with this beast :)

I'm behind warmonger 100%, straight 3L swaps are cheap and tacky by all means. You basically turn your SVT Contour into a taurus and take away a lot of the SVT like the cams, intakes, and secondaries. Which plays a big part in what makes the car in my opinion.
 
The other issues with running a complete 3.0 motor is the fuel rail (needs welding), the wiring (factory harness doesn't reach) and the smallish (60mm) throtle body you're forced to use with the plastic 3.0 UIM.

Although, there seems to be no definitive proof of oiling issues due to the 2 extra drainbacks included in the 3.0, but missing in a 2.5, I like having that safety margin. Obviously, Ford wouldn't have changed the design of the casting unless there was a reason. Having examined both oiling systems extensively, I believe that the biggest single improvement in a 3.0 is the windage tray.

My build is proceeding as a complete 3.0, ported/gasket matched inlets, SVT valvetrain, SVT UIM/LIM, hybrid 65mm t-body, headers and a stock return type fuel rail c/w 19 lb injectors. It is the simplest, most cost effective build IMO.

It should run on regular gas, make reliable power in the 220-230 range and look just like a 2.5. And go like a scalded cat...
 
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How many shops have been used by the membership for port work and installing the 3L valves in the SVT heads? It seems to me that a specialty group would be preferable over an ordinary machine shop. What has been your experience?

Gar
 
moderndino said:
How many shops have been used by the membership for port work and installing the 3L valves in the SVT heads? It seems to me that a specialty group would be preferable over an ordinary machine shop. What has been your experience?

Gar
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A standard 'Skilled' machine shop can easily install the 3L valves. All it involves is re-cutting the intake seats and installing and cutting new exhaust valve seats. Not hard at all and shouldn't run more than $200.
Now the port work to transition all your ports to the bigger valves will cost a bit more if you don't do it yourself. I had the guy pull all the valves and install the bigger exhaust valve seats without cutting them to fit the valves, then I went and ported the intake and exhaust sides, then took the heads back and had him cut the intakes and exhausts to fit so that I didn't risk scratching any of the valve seats during the port work.
To do all installation and cost of new exh. valve seats, all cutting/lapping of all the valves, pressure test on both heads, and tank/clean the heads afterwards, in total it cost me about $400.
 
moderndino said:
How many shops have been used by the membership for port work and installing the 3L valves in the SVT heads? It seems to me that a specialty group would be preferable over an ordinary machine shop. What has been your experience?

Gar
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If you're looking for a "specialty" shop, you can check out http://www.pnpheads.com/products.htm as they specialize in the duratec heads and do porting specifically for the swap. They have done plenty of sets of them for other members including myself, and their work is top notch.
 
warmonger said:
There is a lot of truth to the statement that mod'd cars are worth LESS money than a clean factory model. However it is not always the case with the SVTs. A well done hybrid whether oval heads or 2.5 heads is going to look like stock and feel better than stock in EVERY way, including getting essentially the same gas mileage for most drivers.
A full 3L drop-in in an SVT is a frgn disgrace IMO! You buy it if you want to but that would definitely cut resale value.
Click to expand...

Good points on that issue. My contention earlier was to point out that these cars are not worth a lot to begin with, so your lost resale value for modding the car is relatively small, and conversely your enjoyment of the vehicle can be greatly enhanced with something like a 3L swap. If you keep the car for a few years it all evens out to a zero loss because the stock value gets so low that mods won't affect the bottom line. Hell, at that point a 3L swapped car will be worth more than a stocker to the typical demographic for a car in that price range.
 
When I searched for prepped block, I only found a couple of sources. I'm sure there must be more.
Who are the shops providing 3L blocks prepped for hybrid build without core?
If there's a list, I missed it.

Gar

I'm tempted now to complete my project with the bigger motor rather than as a second phase.

If you are a shop, PM me please.
 
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