CD4E rebuild. Advice needed

[Kansi9]

I have a 2.0 '97 Mondeo with transmission problems. Gears 2 and 4 are missing and it feels like it's slipping in 3rd. This all started after fixing an air leak in the intake after which throttle response and low end torque improved considerably. While driving at around 30 mph I floored the gas and the car downshifted to 1st. On an 1-2 shift the tires squeaked a little. I didn't pay much attention to it and didn't notice hard shifts or anything else out of ordinary after that for the rest of the drive.
The next time I took the car it drove normally for a few miles. After a stop and few minutes of idling to pick up a friend it never changed to second gear again. The 4th gear feels like it's there but it never get fully engaged before it drops back to 3rd and then the O/D light starts blinking. I never got any codes on my cheap OBD bluetooth dongle.

A local transmission shop convinced me it was a mechanical problem and to have it fixed before more damage takes place. After hearing how much it would cost just for the band replacement I decided to do it myself. Since getting the transmission out seemed pretty cumbersome I bought a used (broken) CD4E unit built early '98 (build date 8037) to see how I could manage the rebuild.

Upon disassembly it turned out to have been just rebuilt but unsuccessfully. The low/reverse clutch piston seal was not seated correctly. The good news was the amount of of almost new parts I had acquired for a measly sum of 50 euros. New steels and frictions and a new band. The drum had also been replaced but it created some confusion as I haven't been able to find a similar one using google. It seemed to be a mix of early and late type drum parts.
It had an early type of forward/coast clutch assembly that didn't have the wave spring, but the return spring and forward one way clutch were of the later design. I''l try and add pictures to make it clearer..



As I am about to order parts for the rebuild I am wondering if I should get the wave spring and associated components.

- Harri

 

[amc49]

Been a long while since I did mine, but it still runs fine. I too went through main cylinder hell, like 6 different ones. V-6 uses different ones, and with and without wave and thicker thinner coast piston. Look HARD at the forward clutch snap ring area, the end of cylinder breaks off pieces at the snap ring groove because of cracking at the groove. The most common DNF factor in bringing these cars into the junkyard. I would get the wave in there if I could, it helps to not shock that groove, why it was added. You'll know when parts thicknesses add up right, you'll get correct clutch pack clearance.

Look around band anchor and servo rod hit points, the band breaking another common issue. Almost sounds like your original trans in car may be there. FYI if band only getting slightly loose on car itself you can find a servo piston with next longer shaft and try that to make band clamp hard again. Piston rod is grooved, number of grooves determines what length rod is. Be aware there is one hell of a spring under the four inch diameter cover under front of trans. It can hurt you coming out. Did a Tempo with slipping like you describe, on that one the rod was separate on piston, a thirty cent washer fixed it 15 years ago and it's running today.

Watch for bushing wear under the reverse and direct end of main cylinder, bushing leaks will let reverse and direct clutches slip if bad. Reverse engagement at car first startup issues mainly.

Look closely at the oil holes on reverse hub that goes into reverse/direct. It can be assembled so that oil holes do not line up, it then burns up the bushing supplied there.

 

[Kansi9]

Thanks for the reply. I've been quite busy so it took some time to complete the disassembly. Some new questions also popped up. The band was indeed broken but it was 2" wide and had CD4E V6 written on it. I'm betting it was not installed there on the assembly line. So that's (at least) two broken bands in just a little over 100k. Another thing I noticed that I haven't seen before was a some kind of plug or restriction in the forward clutch passage in the main case just under the valve body.

Like this:

I was going to install the TransGo shift kit but if this plug is part of some other modification they might interfere with each other. I'll have to take both valve bodies apart side by side and compare since my spare tranny doesnt have that.

The snap ring area on both drums seem fine. On the new drum it looks quite robust and since it is solid material there's less chance of cracking. The weld at the bottom under the piston on the other hand looks suspicious:

I wrote earlier that it felt like it was slipping. A few miles after I lost 2nd and 4th gear it needed some revs to get moving from standstill. I thought it was also due to forward clutch slipping either because of a partially broken snap ring groove or a cracked weld. Fearing it might be the former I didn't do the stall test. Then one day during disassembly after I had removed the converter reactor I inserted it in the torque converter just to see how much force it requires to turn the stator but it turned both ways very easily. I googled for symptoms of a failed stator one-way clutch and I guess I'm in for a new converter.

There were shreds of copper colored metal in the filter. None of the bushings seemed to be missing that much metal, but one of the rear planets was missing a copper washer. Possibly from a lack of lubrication or overheating.

I am thinking about replacing all or at least most of the bushings just to be on the safe side as I am having difficulties determining the root cause(s) of the failure. Is it just a coincidence that the converter went out just after the band broke?

When I got the car the fluid was very dark with particles floating in it but it did not smell bad. I changed the fluid last summer twice, not by draining but by sucking it out the filler tube with a fluid extractor. The second time I changed the fluid I was in a hurry and I cannot say for certain that I had the engine running while checking the fluid level. If the failure is due to carelessness it's a high price to pay but it would mean that rebuilding it now gives the transmission many years of service.

 

[amc49]

If the passage with the restrictor is truly for the forward clutch then indeed the restriction could be some form of lowering the clutch pressure hit to save the snap ring groove. Why Ford added the later wave washer to forward clutch too.

If you have a modded F/C/D drum the snap ring groove is really strong as compared to the old one. Had to look high and low for mine, trans shop kept acting like I was crazy after I went through so many drums there but finally ah hah! and they had never seen one before at the time.

I've got the Transgo kit installed and seems to work fine, been in there for years.

Careful buying converter, there are plenty of -ssholes out there that will sell you a cleaned up painted one as 'rebuilt', you want a guaranteed cut apart, TCC clutch surface and thrust bearings changed unit there.

If you mix and match major drums and such, hope you got something to do the 3 end play measurements needed there.

I use the pump driveshaft with a drill to prime up oil just before I install converter. Used like 4 quarts prefill oil to do that.

 

[amc49]

I know exactly what you are talking about in reference to other mods interfering. Put an ATX Transgo kit in a Tempo, new rebuild, trans had a long history of ongoing mods to improve things. I ran into half the stuff suggested in the kit was already done to the known dead stock factory trans. I left out what was already done (a couple plate holes drilled a certain size, a hole blocked off, etc.) and did the rest. The trans acted totally wonky, downshifting into low at like 35 mph and other weird bullsh-t. Yanked VB and went over it, it all should've worked but how much of it to do and how much not? Finally got pissed and went to scrapyard and pulled the latest year model I could find of that same VB and cleaned it up and threw it on, and it worked absolutely perfectly and much better than the older VB, even when it was returned back to dead stock. Thinking the kit I had worked better on earlier totally unmodded trannies. Once part of it done by the factory, where do you pick up at? It was obvious also that whoever making up the kit knows pretty much what Ford was doing to mod them, what was done was identical. Once you get to the different springs though you are lost. You have no way of knowing what spring values to use there.

 

[Kansi9]

Alright! The car is finally on its wheels, but I think it might be too early to call it success. The transmission seems to be working great. All the gears are there and it shifts very smoothly. There's just one thing that worries me. There's a sound coming from the engine bay that I'd rather be without. It's hard to describe, so I uploaded a video of it on Youtube: http://youtu.be/AOz6QSdZabU
None of the local mechanics that I have consulted think it is transmission related and tell me to check the vacuum lines. I will definitely be doing that before I pull the transmission out again.
I'll write a more detailed summary of the whole rebuild process after I get the car back on the road. Until then, big thanks to amc49 for your help on this project!

 

[amc49]

Brother I don't like the sound of that..............I can see why they say what they do but that sounds like within converter to me. Did you get it loaded all the way back into trans? there's like three separate steps you have to go over to be fully engaged. Sounds like turbine scraping something, you can hear it slow down and stop when motor stopped. Does it make the noise in all gears as well?

You should be able to have converter back far enough so that you can turn it fairly easily and it also must then pull slightly forward for studs to enter the flywheel holes. If studs were rubbing flywheel so that converter did not turn easily then not far enough back at install, or slid back forward when tilting trans around and easy mistake to make but can tear up everything.

Luck and hoping I'm dead wrong there...........................

 

[Kansi9]

Damn, I was also thinking about the converter. The man who sold me the converter assured me it's something else because the fluid's resistance would not allow any rotation inside the converter after the engine is stopped. We'll see..
Following the previous advice I was given I was going to check the PCV valve and oil separator first. After all they are quite near the source of the noise and I did make modifications to the breather hose that connects to the intake manifold.

When I installed the torque converter on the shaft it went through many steps and was noticeably recessed behind the case flange. However, when bolting the transmission to the engine I could get the converter studs through the drive plate holes just by pulling the engine and trans together. I just went ahead with the install because there was no binding or anything.
I had the car running for a few minutes when I pulled out of the garage. At that time the noise was not there. After I got back from a few miles (3 tops) test drive I heard it for the first time.

The sound stays the same no matter what gear it is in. At higher rpms it gets quieter. At 2000 it's already almost inaudible. I have to try and turn the engine off when in D and 2 to see if it makes a difference. Obviously I am going to keep the engine running time to a minimum, but I can't push it back into the garage so I might as well try it. Oh, almost forgot to mention that when I turn the engine off at over 2000 rpms when the noise cannot be heard it comes back after a little while. Something slowing down like you said. Can there be anything turning inside the transmission apart from the oil pump when the car is stationary and in gear, or is it just the converter I should be looking at?

So, is the converter already shot (if that's where the noise was coming from) or will I be able to fix it. Preferably without dropping the subframe..

I'm heading to my family's summer cabin where my workshop and car are first thing in the morning. Also hoping you're wrong..

 

[amc49]

Mechanic is flat wrong, if the fluid coupling were that tight the car would not sit still at idle speed, the slip is even at 700 rpm. The turbine input shaft connects from the turbine directly to the reverse/direct/coast/forward drum assembly, or the biggest single subassembly in there. Plenty enough weight to coast down several rotations when engine is cut off. When pulling trans if you pull all converter to flywheel nuts you can push converter back to disengage the studs from holes or if no studs and bolts only removed you can easily turn the converter by hand at that slow a speed and totally full of fluid.

Thinking out further, did you perform any kind of end play check as required? If you change major assemblies in there, some being welded of multiple parts will be thicker/thinner than others, simply going back together with same select fit end play washer could have the entire trans major rotating assembly too tight with no endplay in it, that could do same thing. CD4E a bastard, there are actually 3 endplay checks to do on it vs. the normal one on most others.

Could easily be a bad converter as well, if not fully rebuilt with all thrust surfaces renewed you could've gotten one just worn or loose enough to let the turbine just barely strike other things. Some people claim rebuilt but clean then up only to resell without ever cutting them apart to renew everything. Daaco Converter known for that...............

I don't see how you are going to avoid yanking trans again, you have to to verify no damage further inside the front drive.

Still hoping I'm wrong...........

 

[Kansi9]

I'll be damned; after I put the breather hose that runs from the valve cover to the air cleaner back AND removed the plug at the valve cover I put there to prevent dirt ingress I haven't heard the sound again! That was quite important information about the condition of the engine I left out there. Sorry about that. Sufficient light is very important when working on a car, I guess.
I have driven the car for about ten miles now and I haven't heard anything out of ordinary. In fact I ran the engine without the auxiliary belt for a few seconds and without the power steering pump churning the car ran very silent. No sound from the transmission whatsoever.
Here's a youtube video where the trans installation goes pretty much like mine: http://youtu.be/XkH0GH0fQAc?t=2m24s

The car is having the wheels aligned as I type and after that I'm getting it inspected. Hope nothing bad turns up, they are pretty strict here.



About the end play thing. I figured the main shaft end play could be altered by changing the drum, so I measured that as well as I could with makeshift tools. I didn't know how much pressure that preload adapter puts on the assembly, so I measured the extremes, ie no preload and as tight as I still thought safe for the bearings with a piece of wood and two c-clamps. The average of those measurements was almost within the specs of the same washer as was in the transmission before, just a bit on the loose side. Thus I figured I don't need to alter the other two shims at the differential end either. Besides end play the shims are used to make sure the chain runs straight, right?

By the way, the drum in this video looks an awful lot like the drum of unknown origin I put in my trans: http://youtu.be/JyJnhnJB37o?t=46s
I thought it could be a V-6 drum since it had four direct steels and frictions.

Ok, now off to pick up my car from the service station..

 

[amc49]

So glad to hear that. Now I understand how that strange squeak came to be, you had the engine under heavy vacuum at idle. PCV normally just puts slight vacuum on it. Definitely don't hear that noise every day.

All final endplay shims are to simply guarantee the finel endplay is tight enough to allow long wear of all thrust washers while not being tight enough to load the cases and start failing parts. The looser the endplay is the easier for different drums and cylinders to tilt inside of each other to load sideways and wear funky. Any major part lineup and centering is done from other side and already done by the time you get to endplay measurements. Not that you can't alter by changing things up of course, I've gone to other side and removed some thickness to say line up drive better or to get a shim to work that otherwise didn't and I had none to replace with. You juggle stuff around within the confines of what will work.

Luck with your build Jimmy-Jack!!!!!!!!!!

 

[amc49]

If you look at your first pic in post of drum, look at the top snapring groove as versus the bottom one on same part. See the difference in how the groove is made? The bottom type is the one that breaks up in pieces, thinking the top one is the good groove that doesn't break. Been a long time since I looked at those parts though.

Running a 6 cylinder drum with more clutches is fine, that would be first thing someone does to make a heavy duty race type transmission. More discs equals more ability to take load.

 

[Kansi9]

Been a long time since last update. I had some rust issues to take care of before the car could pass inspection. No bad news on the tranny. The DSG -equipped Volkswagen I drive at work might have made me somewhat immune to transmission quirks, but I try to look past that.

I always forget to take pictures when I'm making progress with a project, so I only have a few pics that might be of intererest.

Here is the "plug" that was in the forward clutch passage. Seems it's just a filter screen. I left it out because I feared it might interfere with the TransGo kit.

I used the valve body from my spare tranny. My original valve body had all these different year stamps on the parts ranging from '95 to '97, like they had used up old stock. The only visible difference I found was this hole in the separator plate. It's right in the middle of the picture. Oh, yeah I think some springs were of different color.

I installed new o-rings in the solenoid block. Took some time to figure out why there were so many o-rings in the rebuild kit.

This is how I set up the end play measurement. I held a digital caliper on the aluminium bar for measurement.

This converter reactor mod was published in one of the bulletins from Sonnax. I don't know if it makes a difference, but at least it looks better.

It was a tight fit. Heating the case with a gas torch helped. One of the holes was smaller than the others. A pump alignment pin was used to align the reactor.

This is why the ATSG manual tells you not to remove the final drive pinion shaft retaining ring. A little bit of vaseline held the pins in place during reassembly.

The finished valve body.

It runs! Taken after first test drive. Trusty old Fiesta in the back.

Well, now that I've driven some 150 miles after the rebuild without a hitch I can get back to where a left off when the transmission failed. The car had been quite sluggish from day one. I'm closing in on the problem, which I think is related to the DPFE sensor (original at 100k). If a replacement doesn't cure it I may have to start another thread on that..

Again, thank you for all the help.

 

[amc49]

Well knock me over with a feather, I didn't know they made a wagon.................................luck.........