car wont turn over...HELP!

[Tony2005]

..What really happens is that excess gas wets down everything, all carbon and chamber surfaces. Plug too, starts shorting across the electrode porcelain and voltage drops like a rock. Extra volatile component of the fuel then throws off starting F/A ratio to where doesn't want to start easily. Ether, or starting fluid, will start a motor in this condition because it will light off with no compression and hardly any spark voltage. ...... Realized previous guy had been pouring fuel in intake to crank, motor wouldn't even give a pop. Plugs totally wet, black. Pulled them and HEI cap/coil, wires, so wouldn't blow myself to smithereens. Whirled engine over a bunch, liquid fuel ejecting out of spark plug holes, ..... Blasted out remainder with portable airtank. Let the whole mess sit for an hour in the Texas sun to evap the fuel. Degreased the same plugs with acetone and filed on tips to make sharp new spots, regapped. Put all back together, shot a little ether in the carb, car cranked up in like 5 seconds. Ran like pure crap until got some temp in motor, and burned plugs a little cleaner, then it ran better and better, was idling pretty much right in 5 minutes of time. You can't get any more cylinder wash than that engine had, jack, and it still got up and running. They just get super y when you wet everything down. ....

This sounds very much like "cylinder wash" to me.

And then removing fuel by "Blasted out remainder with portable airtank. Let the whole mess sit for an hour in the Texas sun to evap fuel." Except that we advise using oil to gain compression rather than using portable airtank to blast the fuel out or waiting for "the whole mess sit for an hour in the Texas sun to evap fuel".

 

[Big Jim]

I don't buy that "cylinder wash" idea, you don't lose enough compression to stop engine starting unless motor already dead enough you shouldn't be working on it. Anybody here ever worked on 2 strokes? They run with almost no oil on cylinder walls at all. Take a well running one apart immediately after running it and tell me how much oil is on the rings or piston. Hardly anything, the lube is more gas than oil. Complicating things more is the fact that those motors have almost half the compression ratio to begin with that a 4 stroke does. Yet they start all day long just fine. What really happens is that excess gas wets down everything, all carbon and chamber surfaces. Plug too, starts shorting across the electrode porcelain and voltage drops like a rock. Extra volatile component of the fuel then throws off starting F/A ratio to where doesn't want to start easily. Ether, or starting fluid, will start a motor in this condition because it will light off with no compression and hardly any spark voltage. A plug shorting across porcelain will still light it off. There used to be this old woman lived next door, she was always flooding out her 350 chevy V-8, then would come over. "Please, can you get my car started?", you know the type. After several times I got pissed and refused to come to door when she knocked. After 2 days she got someone to come out and repair it, they gave up after a while and told her she needed new motor. I gave in when saw how unhappy she was, had pets at another home, they would starve. Realized previous guy had been pouring fuel in intake to crank, motor wouldn't even give a pop. Plugs totally wet, black. Pulled them and HEI cap/coil, wires, so wouldn't blow myself to smithereens. Whirled engine over a bunch, liquid fuel ejecting out of spark plug holes, what a joke. Wonder it didn't lock up and bend a rod. Blasted out remainder with portable airtank. Let the whole mess sit for an hour in the Texas sun to evap the fuel. Degreased the same plugs with acetone and filed on tips to make sharp new spots, regapped. Put all back together, shot a little ether in the carb, car cranked up in like 5 seconds. Ran like pure crap until got some temp in motor, and burned plugs a little cleaner, then it ran better and better, was idling pretty much right in 5 minutes of time. You can't get any more cylinder wash than that engine had, jack, and it still got up and running. They just get super y when you wet everything down. Now don't think I'm a champion of ether, because I'm not. I try to avoid using the stuff, however, it can be a VERY handy tool if you DON"T OVERUSE IT. All it's for is to provide the initial hit to get motor up and running for no more than 2-3 seconds. Use more than that amount, 1-2 second shot from the can, and you are ASKING FOR IT. If fuel system working, that short time enough to pump fuel from a mechanical fuel pump to engine, carb or FI will be working by then. Had a friend who rebuilt a Pontiac V-8 in a wagon, drove up to his shop seconds after he had blown up the new engine. Smoke still drifting out of all the holes in engine sides and pan. He used starting fluid to crank it, it would just pop a little before that. Ether at least got motor running for a few seconds at a time, he knew it had some type of a fuel problem but couldn't find it. Meanwhile kept using bigger and bigger shots of starting fluid thinking "It's almost running, a little more'll do it". He was leaning under hood when it blew, someone else cranking it for him. Wonder he didn't get really hurt, the noise wrecked his hearing for a month. Explosion broke 6 of 8 rods and all went through block/pan in various places. Later investigation showed fuel pump eccentric on camshaft nose was not tight, flopping loose, leading to just a little, erratic fuel supply. That's why wouldn't start in first place. Ether users beware, it can bite you HARD.

I don't care if you buy the "theory" or not.

I don't even care if you don't believe this.

I do care that you should not post opinions when you don't have the experience to back it up.

I have had experience with "cylinder wash". I have passed it on here when it looked like others may have experienced it. Many of them reported back that they were able to start an engine experiencing "cylinder wash" by holding the throttle wide open while cranking (to shut off the injectors) or in extreme cases by adding oil to some of the cylinders to temporarily regain compression until it returned naturally.

This was a common problem with the Lincoln Continental V8 engine of about the 2000 vintage (IIRC). I had a few towed into the shop I was working in at the time that I could start by holding the throttle wide open while cranking. A few of the more stubborn ones required pulling the front bank of plugs and adding oil to the cylinders.

So I have had experience with it. Now if you don't want to learn from others experience, so be it, but don't belittle our experience.

Maybe it's time you reviewed your "theory" to see if it more closely matches reality.

As for if "cylinder wash" fits this OP concern, I doubt it. I don't see how changing plugs could keep the starter from working. Perhaps he is having a hard time communication what he is experiencing. If the engine indeed does crank over from the starter, but spins very rapidly, "cylinder wash" could explain it. If the starter doesn't spin and doesn't spin the engine he needs to got a voltmeter and learn how to use it to determine if he has power to the starter and the starter controls, and if not, where it is lost.

 

[amc49]

What's the difference between flooding and losing compression? I described a flooded engine. Where was the lost compression?? Put a compression gauge on it when you encounter the problem and you will find there is still plenty of compression to crank the engine, unless engine is DAMAGED. Someone suggests to review a theory to more closely match reality, yet post offered NOTHING to help me change that view. Where are the missing facts? What logic necessitates that gasoline (hmm, made from oil) will not seal rings almost as well as oil (such as lightweight 5W-30). I refer you back again to the lowly 2 stroke, with 6 to one compression when new and virtually no oil (50 to 1 ratio?) through engine to seal rings. Some of them only have ONE ring, how do those start at all? Take apart a running engine and tell me how much oil drips from the ring lands, virtually none. A running piston is almost dry above the oil control ring. The minute amount of oil on walls can be barely felt, and a teaspoon put in spark plug hole is 100 times the amount. It will spit all over your plugs and wet foul them, again I ask, how is that better? So a few people put oil in and it miraculously worked, I make claim engine was about to start anyway. I have successfully restarted, well I really can't count how many, just say a bunch of engines with this problem, not one did I ever put oil in, every one that I can think of started up. So, by someone else's definition, I apparently HAVE the experience since I can do it without the oil trick. I've backed it up. I'm certainly not inexperienced, having built Ford, Chevy, Mopar, AMC engines including quite a few drag motors. Have built a pretty good chunk of Yamaha twin and Kaw triple 2 strokes also, along with early Honda DOHC 4 valve motorcycle, hotrodding all three. I'm not here to piss anyone off, but sometimes things could use being challenged a little. Someone prove me wrong and I will willingly accept it. But just saying so won't cut it, I need facts to shake my world up. No personal offense intended Big Jim, all 6592 posts of you..............

 

[Big Jim]

What's the difference between flooding and losing compression? I described a flooded engine. Where was the lost compression?? Put a compression gauge on it when you encounter the problem and you will find there is still plenty of compression to crank the engine, unless engine is DAMAGED. Someone suggests to review a theory to more closely match reality, yet post offered NOTHING to help me change that view. Where are the missing facts? What logic necessitates that gasoline (hmm, made from oil) will not seal rings almost as well as oil (such as lightweight 5W-30). I refer you back again to the lowly 2 stroke, with 6 to one compression when new and virtually no oil (50 to 1 ratio?) through engine to seal rings. Some of them only have ONE ring, how do those start at all? Take apart a running engine and tell me how much oil drips from the ring lands, virtually none. A running piston is almost dry above the oil control ring. The minute amount of oil on walls can be barely felt, and a teaspoon put in spark plug hole is 100 times the amount. It will spit all over your plugs and wet foul them, again I ask, how is that better? So a few people put oil in and it miraculously worked, I make claim engine was about to start anyway. I have successfully restarted, well I really can't count how many, just say a bunch of engines with this problem, not one did I ever put oil in, every one that I can think of started up. So, by someone else's definition, I apparently HAVE the experience since I can do it without the oil trick. I've backed it up. I'm certainly not inexperienced, having built Ford, Chevy, Mopar, AMC engines including quite a few drag motors. Have built a pretty good chunk of Yamaha twin and Kaw triple 2 strokes also, along with early Honda DOHC 4 valve motorcycle, hotrodding all three. I'm not here to piss anyone off, but sometimes things could use being challenged a little. Someone prove me wrong and I will willingly accept it. But just saying so won't cut it, I need facts to shake my world up. No personal offense intended Big Jim, all 6592 posts of you..............

It must be painful to need to learn everything from personal experience instead of learning from the experience of others. I've been there myself in some situations.

Flooding can lead to "cylinder wash" without permanent damage. At least my experience has shown that. Unless you want to think that the several engines that I've restarted after "cylinder wash" were my imagination.

The evidence of the loss of compression is the rapid cranking of an engine, similar to a broken timing belt or a jumped timing chain. And yes I have stuck a compression gauge in on some of those occasions and had nearly no compression.

But according to you, that was in my imagination.

This is a case of where your experience doesn't match mine, which it looks like I have had a bit more of.

Stay ignorant if you wish, or learn from those that have already been through it.

 

[amc49]

Well why didn't you say that to begin with? It's not painful at all, if someone else is RIGHT. That just gives you more to go by, I'm not so stupid that I can't admit when that happens. As far as staying ignorant, well, I never had to put oil in them to get them started, and that's not the first one I'd seen with fuel pouring out of the engine, so must be other ways to do it, hmmmm? I just wanted to hear the logic stream. I do think it curious that I've never run across a motor that spun too fast unless like you say timing issues. I generally pick up on that sound immediately, maybe the ones I worked on didn't make it. Curious about the compression thing, I've run compression on virtually dry cylinders before,starter used to motor over engine to break in ceramic rings DRY, those cylinders showed plenty of squeeze. The implication of engine damage was an engine damaged before the "wash" took place, I could possibly see compression loss if motor already in bad shape squeeze wise before. Gasoline only shouldn't hurt cylinders short term. I do still find it hard to believe almost no compression with gauge. Don't get me wrong, I am NOT calling you a liar. Please accept however that I have my own thoughts too. They seem to work pretty successfully in my world so ignorant does not fit well here. I also tried to say that I was NOT insulting anyone, what do I get back? If it makes you feel better to call people ignorant.................well, I just hope you don't teach like that. This is indeed a case of where your experience doesn't match mine, which means just that, the two do not match. Nothing more.

 

[Big Jim]

Fair enough. Your experience and mine doesn't match.

For what it is worth, I had never seen this happen until fuel injection was common. I also suspect that modern engine building techniques with finer finished cylinder walls has some impact here. There could also be fuel programming issues here.

The most common time for this to happen is in cold weather, or perhaps even more often in the transition time into cold weather while warm weather fuel is still in the car. Remember that fuel blends change for climate about every six weeks and that cold weather fuel has more light ends in the blend to promote easier vaporization in cold weather.

The most common event is when the car is started cold and only run for a moment then shut off. Like when someone pulls the car out of the garage, shuts it off, and walks away for a few moments. When they try to start it again, it spins rapidly (no compression) and won't light off.

Perhaps you have not seen this because you don't treat your cars like that or perhaps you don't have cars that are prone to the problem.

And before I forget, it is not from dry cylinder walls, it is from washed out cylinder walls.

 

[Taasman]

MAkes no sense to me either....dont matter the plugs, unless too long, should still Crank ( or at least turn over ) must have been some good stuff that you were smoking, cause it makes no sense to none of us.

 

[FauxhawkFox]

Yeah, didnt make sense to me either. I put new gapped plugs in...didnt turn over at all. I put old plugs in, fires right up. I still dont understand. Car works fine now, doesnt even hesitate when I turn the key.

 

[amc49]

Funny you should say that about finer RMS on cylinder walls , Bigjim. That same thought popped into my mind while I was typing the line about the ceramic rings, which then required a super smooth hone, if memory serves correct. Back then (late 70s'?) Manley was pushing a single ring piston (actually 1 compression plus 1 oil control) that was supposed to be the "hot" setup, but it was y from the start. One of the first problems that showed up was that the engine started eating oil like it was being injected in with the fuel. You HAD to run a vacuum crankcase to make it work. The ring actually sealed so well (100% they claimed) that it produced a weird effect that allowed ring to skate over the oil instead of scraping it down. After much testing they showed in advertising how some very small amount of blowby was necessary in normal engine to keep cylinders oil free above ring. Hence the requirement to run that type piston was vacuumed crankcase. As I remember, that piston also required a VERY fine finish, much finer than say a moly type ring. When you go there as the manufacturers seem to have lately, I would be willing to admit there might be some really weird things going on that maybe not commonly seen before.