-
Welcome to the Contour Enthusiasts Group, the best resource for the Ford Contour and Mercury Mystique.
You can register to join the community.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
camber plate?
- Thread starter tigerbalm
- Start date
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
morbid
Hard-core CEG'er
You *should* be fine without them. I have H&R + Koni and have the camber kit to get more negative camber, but I think I'm done messing around with the kit and will be going back to the stock mount.
2000SilverSVT
Veteran CEG'er
I bought it with the BAT kit because it cost slightly more than new strut tops.
The nice thing about the Camber plates is that you can ensure that your alignment is the same on each side. Otherwise you could have 1degree positive on one side and 1 degree negative on the other and still be withing factory alignment specs.
They are not at all usefull for adjusting between street and track setups. Set it once and leave it.
I say Yes for camber plates.
The nice thing about the Camber plates is that you can ensure that your alignment is the same on each side. Otherwise you could have 1degree positive on one side and 1 degree negative on the other and still be withing factory alignment specs.
They are not at all usefull for adjusting between street and track setups. Set it once and leave it.
I say Yes for camber plates.
Auto-X Fil
CEG'er
They are not at all usefull for adjusting between street and track setups. Set it once and leave it.
Why do you say that? I changed mine almost every week without any problems.
2000SilverSVT
Veteran CEG'er
Why do you say that? I changed mine almost every week without any problems.
I say that because as you rotate the plates your a adjusting camber and castor at the same time and even with marks on the strut tower it is not possible for the alignment to be exact after it is moved.
Have you had your alignment rechecked after your move the plates?
This is also not from me but from my alignment guy. He is a former Mercedes Master mechanic and dirt track racer. All he does now is alignments using measuring rods and bubble guages. No electronics at all.
Auto-X Fil
CEG'er
I do my own alignments and they're plenty accurate. If you carefully make several marks on the hat and tower you can get it very, very close. Certainly well within the noise limit of any alignment machine, whether it's your guy's classic setup, my homebrewed kit, or a modern laser system.
Adjusting camber and caster at the same time is a non-issue. For street I dialed camber to reasonable (~1*) levels, with whatever caster that got me. For track I compromised a little camber for more caster, since the circular adjustment mechanism means you can get a lot of both by setting the bolt at a 45* angle to the vehicle centerline. The tricky thing to deal with is that you need to change your toe, or at least be aware of it. I wasn't changing my toe too much, so I went from slight toe-out on the street to slight toe-in on the track. For big events I dialed in some toe-out and then put it back when I was done racing. Toe is very easy to set and reset, you just count turns.
Adjusting camber and caster at the same time is a non-issue. For street I dialed camber to reasonable (~1*) levels, with whatever caster that got me. For track I compromised a little camber for more caster, since the circular adjustment mechanism means you can get a lot of both by setting the bolt at a 45* angle to the vehicle centerline. The tricky thing to deal with is that you need to change your toe, or at least be aware of it. I wasn't changing my toe too much, so I went from slight toe-out on the street to slight toe-in on the track. For big events I dialed in some toe-out and then put it back when I was done racing. Toe is very easy to set and reset, you just count turns.
2000SilverSVT
Veteran CEG'er
I do my own alignments and they're plenty accurate. If you carefully make several marks on the hat and tower you can get it very, very close. Certainly well within the noise limit of any alignment machine, whether it's your guy's classic setup, my homebrewed kit, or a modern laser system.
Adjusting camber and caster at the same time is a non-issue. For street I dialed camber to reasonable (~1*) levels, with whatever caster that got me. For track I compromised a little camber for more caster, since the circular adjustment mechanism means you can get a lot of both by setting the bolt at a 45* angle to the vehicle centerline. The tricky thing to deal with is that you need to change your toe, or at least be aware of it. I wasn't changing my toe too much, so I went from slight toe-out on the street to slight toe-in on the track. For big events I dialed in some toe-out and then put it back when I was done racing. Toe is very easy to set and reset, you just count turns.
If you are doing your own alignment then I see no reason to use them to adjust between settings. For most people that do not I would not change it around because as you mentioned it knocks other things out of wack. As we all know, a properly aligned AutoX car is dangerous to drive on the street past 45mph.
SVTGT350
CEG'er
As we all know, a properly aligned AutoX car is dangerous to drive on the street past 45mph.
REALLY, I guess I shouldn't be driving mine on the street then. The only thing my AutoX alignment does is wear out my street tires faster.
Auto-X Fil
CEG'er
As we all know, a properly aligned AutoX car is dangerous to drive on the street past 45mph.
That is completely false.
2000SilverSVT
Veteran CEG'er
That is completely false.
I would not say completely false but a car setup for AutoX will have toe out instead of toe in. The toe out will cause the car to be more unstable at highway speeds and requires more attention from the driver. Hence it is not as safe to drive with an alignment specific for AutoX. A road race setup will not use toe out because increased turn in is not required.
Also, maybe your roads are better where you live but here any setup beyond factory specs and street tires and the car will wander through every groove in the road.
SVTGT350
CEG'er
I would not say completely false but a car setup for AutoX will have toe out instead of toe in. The toe out will cause the car to be more unstable at highway speeds and requires more attention from the driver. Hence it is not as safe to drive with an alignment specific for AutoX. A road race setup will not use toe out because increased turn in is not required.
Also, maybe your roads are better where you live but here any setup beyond factory specs and street tires and the car will wander through every groove in the road.
Those who don't know what they are talking about should not speak. Toe-in on the front wheels will cause a vehicle to be less stable than toe-out. Alignments are what I do both to OEM specs and for track use.
2000SilverSVT
Veteran CEG'er
Those who don't know what they are talking about should not speak. Toe-in on the front wheels will cause a vehicle to be less stable than toe-out. Alignments are what I do both to OEM specs and for track use.
http://www.ozebiz.com.au/racetech/theory/align.html
"If the car is set up with toe-out, however, the front wheels are aligned so that slight disturbances cause the wheel pair to assume rolling directions that do describe a turn. Any minute steering angle beyond the perfectly centered position will cause the inner wheel to steer in a tighter turn radius than the outer wheel. Thus, the car will always be trying to enter a turn, rather than maintaining a straight line of travel. So it's clear that toe-out encourages the initiation of a turn, while toe-in discourages it."
Which is why you want Toe Out on an autocross car because most of your time is spent in a turn or changing direction. It is also why you want Toe in when on the street bcause most of your time is going straight. You also do not want Toe Out on a Road Race car because your turns are at a greater speed and wider Arc and having too much Toe Out will cause the car to become unstable.
"The amount of toe-in or toe-out dialed into a given car is dependent on the compliance of the suspension and the desired handling characteristics. To improve ride quality, street cars are equipped with relatively soft rubber bushings at their suspension links, and thus the links move a fair amount when they are loaded. Race cars, in contrast, are fitted with steel spherical bearings or very hard urethane, metal or plastic bushings to provide optimum rigidity and control of suspension links. Thus, a street car requires a greater static toe-in than does a race car, so as to avoid the condition wherein bushing compliance allows the wheels to assume a toe-out condition."
Big Jim
Hard-core CEG'er
Thanks for the input guys i just wanted to make sure that if i did or didnt install the camber plates it wouldnt chew up the inner wall of my tires at an ungodly rate.
That's hard to say without knowing what your existing camber setting is. Lowering the car WILL increase negative camber.
For what it's worth, I needed the camber kits with stock springs. I had inside edge tire wear from the factory that was not resolved until I installed camber kits and reduced the negative camber.
For you, the awkward thing is that should you discover that you need them, the front struts must be removed to install them.
SVTGT350
CEG'er
Nice article. Now go setup your Contour with Toe-In front and rear and see how it handles.
Now all lowered Contours have negative camber, negative camber will cause the tire to roll the direction it is tilted, ie: if your L/F tire has negative camber when left to roll on its own it will roll to the right. Now add toe-in to that and you will increase the amount the tire will turn to the right.
Now when you put 2 front tires together that have negative camber and toe in they will try to roll over each other. Having the tires trying to drive away from each other is more stable than driving into each other.
I have been aligning suspensions for 8 years, both on street cars and race cars.
Grassroots is a great mag, but reading an article dosen't qualify you to say something is dangerous.
TESTING IS IMPORTANT
Car manufacturers will always have recommended toe, caster, and camber settings. They arrived at these numbers through exhaustive testing. Yet the goals of the manufacturer were probably different from yours, the competitor. And what works best at one race track may be off the mark at another. So the "proper" alignment settings are best determined by you-it all boils down to testing and experimentation.
Here is my current street alignment, front 0 toe, -1.2 camber, +2.2 caster, rear +.10 total toe in, 1.2 neg. camber. No tracking problems, no excessive tire wear. Auto-X alignment front -.5 total toe out, -1.6 camber, +1.9 caster, rear +.4 total toe in, 1.2 neg. camber. No tracking problems, a little excessive tire wear.
Now back to the original topic of this thread. With lowering springs you will most likely need camber plates.
Now all lowered Contours have negative camber, negative camber will cause the tire to roll the direction it is tilted, ie: if your L/F tire has negative camber when left to roll on its own it will roll to the right. Now add toe-in to that and you will increase the amount the tire will turn to the right.
Now when you put 2 front tires together that have negative camber and toe in they will try to roll over each other. Having the tires trying to drive away from each other is more stable than driving into each other.
I have been aligning suspensions for 8 years, both on street cars and race cars.
Grassroots is a great mag, but reading an article dosen't qualify you to say something is dangerous.
TESTING IS IMPORTANT
Car manufacturers will always have recommended toe, caster, and camber settings. They arrived at these numbers through exhaustive testing. Yet the goals of the manufacturer were probably different from yours, the competitor. And what works best at one race track may be off the mark at another. So the "proper" alignment settings are best determined by you-it all boils down to testing and experimentation.
Here is my current street alignment, front 0 toe, -1.2 camber, +2.2 caster, rear +.10 total toe in, 1.2 neg. camber. No tracking problems, no excessive tire wear. Auto-X alignment front -.5 total toe out, -1.6 camber, +1.9 caster, rear +.4 total toe in, 1.2 neg. camber. No tracking problems, a little excessive tire wear.
Now back to the original topic of this thread. With lowering springs you will most likely need camber plates.
2000SilverSVT
Veteran CEG'er
Ok, did not like that article, how about from Tire Rack. Please, find me somthing that says that Toe Out will make a car more stable at high speeds and I will gladly rescend my statement.
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=4
"Toe can also be used to alter a vehicle's handling traits. Increased toe-in will typically result in reduced oversteer, help steady the car and enhance high-speed stability. Increased toe-out will typically result in reduced understeer, helping free up the car, especially during initial turn-in while entering a corner.
Excessive toe settings often bring with them drivability problems, especially during heavy rain. This is because the daily pounding of tractor trailers on many highways leave ruts that fill with water. Since excessive toe means that each tire is pointed in a direction other than straight ahead, when the vehicle encounters a puddle that causes only one tire to lose some of its grip, the other tire's toe setting will push (excessive toe-in) or pull (excessive toe-out) the vehicle to the side. This may make the vehicle feel unsettled and very "nervous."
I guess my 14 Years of AutoX at the Local, Divisional and National level does not count. I have driven plenty of cars with both factory settings and AutoX settings. With an AutoX alignment a car is more sensative to driver input, grooves in the road, etc. For someone not used to that the car can be dangerous. It is also highly dependant on road condition.
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=4
"Toe can also be used to alter a vehicle's handling traits. Increased toe-in will typically result in reduced oversteer, help steady the car and enhance high-speed stability. Increased toe-out will typically result in reduced understeer, helping free up the car, especially during initial turn-in while entering a corner.
Excessive toe settings often bring with them drivability problems, especially during heavy rain. This is because the daily pounding of tractor trailers on many highways leave ruts that fill with water. Since excessive toe means that each tire is pointed in a direction other than straight ahead, when the vehicle encounters a puddle that causes only one tire to lose some of its grip, the other tire's toe setting will push (excessive toe-in) or pull (excessive toe-out) the vehicle to the side. This may make the vehicle feel unsettled and very "nervous."
I guess my 14 Years of AutoX at the Local, Divisional and National level does not count. I have driven plenty of cars with both factory settings and AutoX settings. With an AutoX alignment a car is more sensative to driver input, grooves in the road, etc. For someone not used to that the car can be dangerous. It is also highly dependant on road condition.
Auto-X Fil
CEG'er
An agile alignment is less stable. It is extremely rare that an autocross alignment is actually wild enough to cause any sort of issue on the street. And certainly
is just baloney. That was a very broad statement, and not only is it not universally true, it's almost universally false.
Like this statement:
And this one:
There are only a few things I don't tolerate, but spitting out garbage as fact is one of them. Trying to cover up and twist what you originally said is just as bad. Drop it, and don't do it again.
As we all know, a properly aligned AutoX car is dangerous to drive on the street past 45mph.
is just baloney. That was a very broad statement, and not only is it not universally true, it's almost universally false.
Like this statement:
They are not at all usefull[sic] for adjusting between street and track setups. Set it once and leave it.
And this one:
Struts have a coil spring that is mounted to the shock at and then installed on the car.
Shocks are independant of the spring. Such as vehicles that have leaf springs. Shocks can be replaced without removing the spring. Struts cannot.
There are only a few things I don't tolerate, but spitting out garbage as fact is one of them. Trying to cover up and twist what you originally said is just as bad. Drop it, and don't do it again.
2000SilverSVT
Veteran CEG'er
An agile alignment is less stable. It is extremely rare that an autocross alignment is actually wild enough to cause any sort of issue on the street. And certainly
is just baloney. That was a very broad statement, and not only is it not universally true, it's almost universally false.
Like this statement:
And this one:
There are only a few things I don't tolerate, but spitting out garbage as fact is one of them. Trying to cover up and twist what you originally said is just as bad. Drop it, and don't do it again.
I completely agree that both statements were unecessarily broad and needed further explination. The last statement I already admitted was incorrect and stated so in the thread in which it was posted.
However both you (AutoX-Fil) and SVTGT350 have made rude statements towards my comments that were completely out of line. I will be the first to admit if something I said was incorrect when show to be incorrect. I will also point out when I believe someone else is incorrect. However, I will not insult them or call them names, especially not in a public forum. Doing so is rude. If either of you have a problem with that, feel free to send me a PM.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.