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0w-30???

For my benefit, in layman's terms, just how much difference do you believe there is in bearing clearances for a 0 C temp engine compared to a 100 C temp engine (freezing to boiling). Do the clearances shrink to half what they were when cold?
 
I would need to know the mass and composition of the bearing, components around the bearing, and the clearances between those components. But based on past experiences you can expect at least 50%-75% less clearance between a rod bushing and a steel crankshaft since aluminum expands at more than twice the rate of steel. So if you have a rod bushing encapsulated inside of a rod, it is going to expand, which generally means that it would open wider, but you have the rod around it which due to the shape is going to expand evenly across and therefore the opening will not expand at as high a rate as the bushing will attempt to expand. this means that the crankshaft will get larger but the opening it fits into will not get as much larger. Remember major engine internals such as rods and mains are designed to deform as little as possible under heat from design specifications.

Thats why engines lock up when not properly lubricated or overheated. because the lubrication transfers heat away from the parts so they dont heat up more than they are engineered to. When they do heat more than they are engineered to you lose the clearance between the parts and all the oil is squeezed out. overheat some more and the parts squeeze eachother to the point where you cant move them.
 
In very rough terms, from memory of rebuilding V8 engines is the 60s and 70s, crank journal of 2.5" to 3.0" and rod journals of about 2.25" to 2.6". Main bearing clearance for assembly .005" and rod bearing clearance for assembly of .003" as determined with plastigage. Ambient temperature for assembly was usually between 50F and 80F. Either cast iron or forged steel cranks, cast iron blocks, and forged iron rods. Bearing surface a composite, but most common were aluminum face with steel backing. Temperature variance of ambient during assembly was never considered to be an issue so I don't think that coefficient of expansion had much to do with it during assembly.

Late model aluminum engines seem to have about the same tolerances for assembly. I have not done as many of them and it has been a while so it is not fresh on my mind.
 
you wouldnt see much difference in tolerances at ambient temperatures in that range, 50 - 100 f is equivalent to 10 to 37 celcius. In that range 1 cubic meter of steel only expands less than a millimeter. So you would notice very little change in your materials. anyways, moving to freezing temperatures from assembly temperature of 68 F we will say for sake of argument, you would increase the tolerances between those parts as the steel backing will shrink at half the rate of the aluminum, that means the aluminum would stretch over the steel so the surface deforms and the interior diameter of the bushing increases by about 8% relative to the amount the bearing shrinks. Now if I have my math right, the cast iron of the crankshaft decreases in diameter by about .0008". The cast iron rods would shrink less than a forged steel rod under the temperature change(which sometimes leads to spun rods under inadequate lubrication situations), anyways I digress. I think at freezing you should end up with an additional .001 clearance. It would be easier to verify this by putting the parts in a deep freezer and freezing them to 0 than through the math since it is very long calculus. Anyways, I'll pick up some parts and test it when I get the chance, this math is a little to complicated for me to do by hand.

I guess without doing a lot of really really long calculus, I would estimate a >70% decrease in clearance between freezing and operating temperature, so that would work out to a clearance ~.00174"

It would be exceedingly difficult to measure clearances at boiling but I think I will check my math for freezing temperatures if I get the chance. Maybe I can write a paper on it and call it an applied science :D. Although I am sure if I search long enough I can find engineering papers on this already, I will let you know if I have any luck.
 
im gonna go ahead and post what I pmed you in the second to last pm I sent you cause I guess it would be of use in this discussion for anyone who follows it.

BTW I really do believe "thicker" cold oil is better. This causes the engine to develop higher oil pressure forcing oil into the smaller parts that are prone to more startup wear since the oil passages in a cast iron or even aluminum block are not going to change much in size. The force applied to the oil compressing it causes it to transfer heat away from the parts it is compressed against(tighter areas with greater friction), when it decompresses from moving into areas where there is not any pressure on it it will transfer heat back to parts it is in contact with that dont experiance as much friction, which heats the engine internals more evenly... Basically the same principle as air conditioning. This means you dont generate hot spots on a cold engine where your parts are experiencing a great deal of friction. Now there is not really any way to eliminate wear upon startup, but I think that oil pressure relative to ambient temperature is the best way to accomplish this goal. I guess I never mentioned this in what I was writing in there, but the thermal expansion element applies to the oil as well, so while the oil is less viscous, the molecule chains are larger, so you can fit less oil inside of a constant volume. I know you have checked your oil before with your engine hot and seen a higher oil level than when it was cold. Anyways basically when your oil is hot, you fit less oil between moving parts if the clearances remain the same. Viscosity is actually not really as important if you take that into consideration. The main concern about viscosity is that you dont want an oil that is so thin that it can backfeed on the oil pump or leak past seals or sealed areas such as valves when pressure is created by the oil pump forcing oil into the small areas of the engine.
 
One of the big things that both the oil companies and the auto companies stressed when moving to 5W30 from 10W30 or 10W40 was that the improved FLOW when oil was cold trumped the increased pressure when cold.
 
yeah flow is important too. But you only need so much, you need a balance in the end. Plus you should know as well as anyone, engines change over time. Clearances get smaller parts get smaller. So you do need an oil that will deform into smaller areas. I think though one part you are still missing is that under almost all circumstances, oil molecules will fit between moving parts, unless there is to much heat build up. But thats not my point... you measure oil molecules in terms of microns. A micron is a Millionth of a meter.
1 micron is equal to 0.0000393701 inches. Now an oil molecule is ~0.001 microns. so that means 0.0000000394" so... Pretty small. That means that you can fit a lot of oil molecules between parts. So in this instance we are concerned with viscosity in relation to surface tension, or how easy it is to break that tension to deform it to fit.

Now once again, like I have said before, this surface tension is great for keeping oil inside a seal. This surface tension makes the oil not flow back as easily through the clearances around your oil pump and between the impellers. Reducing the surface tension to the point where it deforms easier, means that oil can flow against the direction it is being pushed and through seals.

Here is where I get back to my original point about thermal expansion. If all the parts have shrunk, and the oil molecules have shrunk, what keeps the oil from flowing through cracks it is not intended to. Its viscosity, or resistance to deform enough to freely move through the very small cracks. This is why, despite the fact oil "thickens" when it gets cold, that isnt a bad thing, because all the parts shrink, which means all the gaps grow.

Now what you pointed out earlier, is that lower weight oil flows easier, your engine is going to move a constant volume of oil no matter what the weight of the oil. Lowering the resistance to flow to a point reduces parasitic drag on the engine. You can see how with a lot of engines companies sell high volume oil pumps. They are called high volume because the oil pump moves more oil.
Regardless of weight, an oil pump moves a specific volume of oil. This volume is constant, regardless of viscosity and temperature. The viscosity of the oil as it meets resistance to that flow is what creates oil pressure and forces the oil to go into smaller areas. If you did not have this resistance, the oil would just flow over the small areas right back into the pan, you could circulate the oil around the moving parts without any of it flowing into the moving parts since the force exerted between moving parts would resist the oils movement into the gaps between those parts. So imagine if all of your oil flowed from the pan, onto the top of the heads, then trickled back down.
When the engineers design the motors, they determine what minimum and maximum tolerances there will be in an engine based on what conditions it is likely an engine will meet. So an engine designer, building an engine wants to determine what conditions an engine will see if it is in a passenger car in the US. So if you determine you need to build your engine to start normally between a temperature of -15f and 120f, figuring that an engine probably wont get much colder than that and be able to start, since in most cases you are gonna need a block heater to start your engine if it is even that cold, so your engine will not likely be any colder than that. So now they have a set of maximum and minimum tolerances for starting, they can set tolerances for operation, figuring their engine is going to be cooled by the coolant system, that means operation will be between startup temperature, and operating temperature of the engine, which should be ~210 at most. So they take these parameters and determine from there that they are the extremes of the operating conditions.
You take those extremes, add a margin for error or abnormal operation, such as cooling failure, or cold beyond what they would expect their engine would be able to start operating at. From there you can take your calculations and determine what the clearances will need to be between moving parts based on the thermal expansive properties of the materials. A large part of this determination is fluid viscosity at specific temperatures. So... Part of designing an engine is knowing before you design it what your oil will fit into, so in a way, you design an engine around the oil you intend to use in the engine. From that you could infer that you dont need a lower or higher viscosity unless your engine is operating outside of the parameters the engineers intended it to, or if the parts of your engine is not withing normal operational specifications.

Long post, sorry to anyone who read the whole thing.
 
Somewhere in their did you allow for the pressure relief valve in the oil pump that diverts oil when the pressure is too high? Like when it is cold and thick? Keeping the positive oil pump from delivering it's full volume to the lubricated surfaces?

I certainly agree that newer engines were designed with thinner oil in mind, but I'm not going to run a straight 30W30SAE in an old collectable car just because that was the best there was when it was designed.
 
older engines didnt have the benifit of computer aided design. You had a buncha guys sitting around with slide rules and a lot of scratch paper. Most manufacturers have released TSBs stating that multigrade oils would work on their older vehicles when multigrade oils became available.

Yeah I know there are bypasses for pressure in an engine.

Still you are missing a major point. Auto manufacturers know there are lighter oils available. They know how lower viscosity oils perform. Why if a lower viscosity oil would be better would they not recommend it? I seriously doubt there is a conspiracy among all the world automakers to make sure your engine only lasts you 180,000 miles instead of 200,000
 
In the 50s and 60s, automakers specified mostly straight grade 20W20SAE oil, but "conventional wisdom" was that 20 wasn't heavy enough to properly support an engine and most everyone used 30W30SAE. There were even studies showing that engine wear accelerated when 30 was used.

This concept of "thinner is better" didn't start recently. It has been going on for a very long time.
 
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