the infamous spec

[8000RPM]

so after many posts and questions here at the ceg forums, it was time for me to take my tranny down and see what was the problem with my bearing...here is what i found!!

this clutch is less than 5 months old, has less than 5k miles on it, never seen a drag stip...and it is supposed to be the Stage 1...absolute BS. I am sorry, but that's a rip off. but at this point I don't know what to do. Is it normal for these clutch to snap like that? did the bearing failed and caused it the damage? how can the springs inside shatter all over the bell housing? what should I tell SPEC? all they repeat over the phone is that "it only has 120 days warranty", what?? i think they should at least stand behind their products. unbelivable!!!

 

[Matty K]

HOLY HELL! I'm really hoping that's not what I find when we take mine out... Was your flywheel damaged? What symptoms were you having?


*Patiently waits for everyone to jump in and claim "installer error"...*

 

[fobCSVT]

SVT3rivières had a similar problem last summer, he installed his spec stage 1 clutch and 300kms after all the rivets broke down causing the friction disc to separate from the center part.

Spec admitted their fault and sent him a new revised clutch. Maybe your clutch was in the same batch that had problems. I would contact spec and try to get a replacement clutch.

 

[tasso]

Sorry to hear about yours. I am sure this will be another installer issue and no other's are having problems with Spec clutches. Did Spec cover the bigger part, installation for their defective product? Yea right.

 

[Reebs]

Tons and tons of people use spec clutches and have had spec clutches for years without any problems. However, any clutch company can make a mistake and I'm sure they will give you a brand new one. My stock SVT clutch went with low miles and looked exactly like that too, so it isn't nessasarily a spec problem. Heck, my stock SVT clutch was wayyy worse too. It had every spring popped out and the whole inside of the clutch disc was shattered. Have them replace it, and give spec one more chance. I do understand the hassle and labor, etc... though. Sorry to hear that happened to you.


Jeff

 

[svtjeff]

What is all that dust? Is it rust or what? For 5 months of use and 5k miles that clutch disk looks terrible......

 

[shavedsvt]

i hate to say it but it looks like installation error. the pressure plate should not be scorn like that and the disc should not be glazed like that. looks like you didnt clean it enough when installing. oil from your hands, grease, or brake cleaner that left a residue....

 

[svtjeff]

I hope you are joking......ShavdSVT

This is a catastrophic failure - cleanliness had nothing to do with it.

Should be interesting to see how Todd sees it.

Then again, under what conditions did the clutch failure? I know it says no drag strip, but hole shots on the street can be just as bad....

Then Again, credentials come to mind.......or the lack of.....

 

[8000RPM]

when installing the clutch, i used gloves, everything was perfectly clean, and its not my first clutch that i put on an csvt. if it is an installation error, it will fail right away. no fautly installed clutch will last 4-5 months.
I haven't abused that thing at all. no street racing or anything. no hard launchings at 4k rpm on the street.
Before i took it out, spec said that they wanted pictures, then i should send it back to them, they had to inspect it...blah blah, and at the end all they repeated is that it is past 120 days from the date of purchase. I can't afford to have the car sitting in that garage for several days.

symptoms:

one day the clutch pedal started to feel funny. it would not go up smooth. then after i bled the system, it got better, but i couldn't downshift as normal. had to rev up the engine when downshifting. then i bled the clutch again, started the engine, and heard a loud LOUD metal to metal scraping/breaking sound...and that was it. i bled the thing again, hoping it was air, thus clutch was not disengaging but...no luck. sometimes the there was a grinding sound when backing up. at idle the bearing sounded like a broken pulley. this noise started back in december. sometimes it would become a knocking sound, but after pressing the clutch a few times it would go back to its usual "broken pulley" sound.

flywheel is not damaged. at least it is not scratched. and that is dust on the pressure plate. it looks like dust from the disk after it broke.
i would suspect that the bearing failed, and damaged the disk. or maybe i am wrong. many many people say they have had failing bearings on these. how can i tell if the bearing went bad?

and guys, i will only give spec another chance if they are willing to give themselves another chance. I refuse to pay them for another clutch, so they will make a profit again. then again, I would HATE to put in a spec and then redo the whole thing if it fails again. I have heard good things about it, and that's why i got it on the first place. but i guess this was one of the unfortunate cases where spec had defective bearings in their kits. what should i tell spec? i don't think they will even give me a discount if i was to get a new clutch from them( 120 days have passed, remember?(

 

[tasso]

8,000 RPM I am curious what your mods are and approx horsepower? Also why did you go with Spec as opposed to a stock SVT clutch?

 

[warmonger]

From the looks of it that clutch has a LOT of miles on it. So I'd venture to say that if it only has 5 months on it then it was slipping a lot more than it should have and making it very hot.
THe issue seems to be caused by the broken piece of hub getting caught in there and not letting the clutch disengage or just creating an artificial engagement that kept the trans turning. This would always make it difficult to get in and out of gear.
So did the hub fail because of a hard launch? If it did I would be pretty pissed because this is supposed to hold up to more serious abuse.
On the other hand, if it was slipping significantly and running very hot themetal could have been weakend from the heat, then that contributed to the fracture and failure.
This also would explain the significant amount of wear on the face of the disk in just 5 months.
So why slipping? You say it was clean so we discount cleanliness....but what about the surfacing? Was the distance between the pressure plate mounting points and the actual friction surface increased when it was surfaced last? In effect the plate would have less force applied and the disk would slip under heavy load.
This is why I brought up these question on the two-step surfacing issue. If the disk was not surfaced on both sections then that distance is not preserved and you will loose clamp pressure.

 

[8000RPM]

tasso - mods, haha, you've got to be kidding me right? i have no clue how many hp i have, but its not that much i bet. mods: K&N, optimized TB, MSDS headers, optimized y-pipe, straight pipes with stock high flow cat and resonator and a superchips module. and keep in mind that I installed the msds headers 2 days before the clutch failed....so the failure is not related to high HP engine.

warmonger - trust me. clutch doesn't have that many miles on it. I have only changed the oil like twice on it. and i don't tend to change the oil every 10k miles. the broken piece was only bent at 90 degree angle when i took the clutch out. i touched it and it just snapped off. one of the springs seemed to have "exploded" and its particles were all over the inside of the bell housing. the bigger spring you see on the pic fell when i pulled the pressure plate out. the hub could not have failed due to a hard launch, because there wasn't one. i can't even remember the last time I launched hard from a standing point. i did however shift hard from 1st to 2nd and to 3rd gear at high rpm-s, but never from a dead stop... i don't even remember the last time i was spinning tires on a dry pavement...seriously!...
on the other hand, i never felt the clutch to be slipping like a worn out clutch would. it always grabbed hard when i would shift at high rpms (like mentioned above). nada slipping. but the flywheel was only resurfaced at the main part or what you call the actual friction surface. i was there when the guy machined it, and he only took less than a hair thick layer. you are right that if this gap increase, it will cause lesser clamp pressure, but here we are talking about a fraction of a milimeter... i really don't believe that this would cause a performance clutch to break so dramatically for such a short time period. in the long run, maybe. on the drag strip...yes, but not under normal "spirited" driving. or maybe i am wrong. i am not an expert, that's why i am posting here on the first place.

and what i really don't get is that it broke when the car was parked at a driveway, at neutrall, with the clutch pedal pressed all the way in (i was starting the engine) and i just heard a loud bang/metal to metal scraping and...it just didn't sound right. then i turned off the car, crancked it back up...and no gears...so i had to push the car in the garage and that's where i took it apart. its sad, beacuse i don't even live there

what happens when the bearing fails? what will be the damage?

i will call spec monday. i really hope that they will at least try to resolve this issue in a respectful/compromising manner, because the last time i spoke with them (before the clutch failed) they were really not the helpful. at the worst i will get a new svt kit from Bill Jenkins. At least he is extremely accurate and helpful guy with supersonic shipping

 

[ContourGuy9817]

i have a feeling a have a broken spring it always squeeks when i shift, iv replaced every motor mount and strut mount withen the last year too, so im quite sure thats what it is cuz it only does it when i push in and out on the clutch

 

[kristiyano]

i hate to say it but it looks like installation error. the pressure plate should not be scorn like that and the disc should not be glazed like that. looks like you didnt clean it enough when installing. oil from your hands, grease, or brake cleaner that left a residue....

I guess you know a lot about putting in clutches...
Yeah, your statement is weak dude. If you think that at any shops mechanics give a f*** about how clean their hands and clutch components are before installing a clutch you are in for a big shock. But i can guarantee on this one that nothing was overlooked.
If it were an installation error it would have failed much sooner than that. My guess is within the first 10 miles.

 

[tasso]

tasso - mods, haha, you've got to be kidding me right? i have no clue how many hp i have, but its not that much i bet. mods: K&N, optimized TB, MSDS headers, optimized y-pipe, straight pipes with stock high flow cat and resonator and a superchips module. and keep in mind that I installed the msds headers 2 days before the clutch failed....so the failure is not related to high HP engine.

The reason I was asking you that question is because there seems to be a tendency for some on here to tell everyone to get a Spec clutch replacement. It appears to me that the Spec Stage 1 clutch may have a significantly higher failure rate than the stock SVT clutch. I know I got the word on here that a Spec clutch was the tits. I am just wondering, if you do not have the horsepower that justified it, why you went with spec? Not trying to bust your chops at all and sorry I was not clear before.

 

[tasso]

I can tell you that with the second Stage 1 that we put in my car the clutch functioned perfect in the first 12-15 miles. There was no shudder or vibration, no unusual noises when engaging the clutch. The clutch felt perfect. Then all of the sudden in the last couple miles it felt like it got soft and at a stop light when letting the clutch out it would not engage in first. As I have mentioned the entire back side the the friction plate fell apart.

 

[8000RPM]

what? and that was your second spec clutch?
why did i get the spec if i didn't have the hp? well i dunno. it was the same price, even cheaper than the stock svt clutch. it was supposed to grab better, and i had some plans to invest some money in the engine. so i wanted a good clutch in case i made the car more powerful...instead of putting a svt clutch and then putting spec later on. i guess i was wrong, and now i am pretty sure that i will not invest more money in the motor so i wouldn't mind throwing in the svt cluth.

 

[shotwell]

...but the flywheel was only resurfaced at the main part or what you call the actual friction surface. i was there when the guy machined it, and he only took less than a hair thick layer. you are right that if this gap increase, it will cause lesser clamp pressure, but here we are talking about a fraction of a milimeter... i really don't believe that this would cause a performance clutch to break so dramatically for such a short time period. in the long run, maybe. on the drag strip...yes, but not under normal "spirited" driving. or maybe i am wrong. i am not an expert, that's why i am posting here on the first place...

You have the answer right here. Yes, the machinist may have only taken off less than a mm, but how much was it worn down by the previous clutch? The flywheel face is a wear point while the step is not. That step HAS to be machined to specification EVERY time. Even as little as one mm of slack in that specification would cause early clutch failure...overheating causing metal fatigue, causing disentegration.

I learned this lesson (luckily) from someone else. There was a discount clutch shop in Vancouver WA (Clutch Corner IIRC) that was cutting that corner on all of their clutch jobs...they just used a small orbital sander to rough up the flywheel face. They did a LOT of warranty work. Finally it came out what they were doing (from a former employee) and they had to shut down. It was in the local newspaper and everything. I'll try to find a link to it, but it was in the late '90s.

I'm not trying to rub this in your face, nor tasso's. I don't think others are trying to either...it just comes off that way. No one likes to admit when they're wrong, especially on a public forum. That and it's a very expensive mistake.

At this point you're looking at a new clutch. Once you accept that reality, you have choices. The OEM LUK clutch has proven to be very durable. Mine lasted 98k under light use. I have also run a Centerforce Dual Friction, which only lasted 35k but saw HEAVY abuse. Lots of drag strip time, clutch drops, etc. Currently I'm running a SPEC Stage 1. I'm very happy with it. It grips better than either of my previous clutches. I'm confident it will last a long time because:

1. I had the flywheel machined properly
2. I cleaned the flywheel and pressure plate surface with brake cleaner before installation (the pressure plate comes oiled, to prevent rust)
3. I used a new Release Bearing Assy (TOB)
4. I broke in the clutch properly before I started beating on it.

Now I'm back to chirping my drive belt on high RPM shifts, which makes me happy as a clam!

Good luck with your car. Please forward any personal insults to me via PM :wink:

 

[Big Jim]

With all that has happened here, has anyone found the actual measurement between the two planes on the flywheel that needs to be maintained? If nothing else, can someone measure a new flywheel and tell us the reading?

Although I will not rule out the posibility of a flywheel machining error, I'm inclined to think these early failures do indicate defective clutches. The marks on the flywheel and pressure plate can be easily explained by the clutch disc coming apart. It looks like the Marcel (the flex pieces that the clutch friction material attaches to) just was not up to the task.

But that is just the opinion of an old hot rodder that has changed more than his share of clutches.

 

[tasso]

"I'm not trying to rub this in your face, nor tasso's. I don't think others are trying to either...it just comes off that way. No one likes to admit when they're wrong, especially on a public forum. That and it's a very expensive mistake."


The second Spec 1 clutch that failed in the first day, went in with a new (never used) Fidenza flywheel. Sorry to shoot a hole in your assumption right away but the clutch fell apart because it was defective.

"You have the answer right here. Yes, the machinist may have only taken off less than a mm, but how much was it worn down by the previous clutch? The flywheel face is a wear point while the step is not. That step HAS to be machined to specification EVERY time. Even as little as one mm of slack in that specification would cause early clutch failure...overheating causing metal fatigue, causing disentegration."

If your statement was correct and the machinest takes the same off both surfaces the result would still be different than when the flywheel was new due to the wear on the flywheel face. This small difference is not going to cause the low mileage failures experienced.