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V8 conversion
- Thread starter z06killinsbf
- Start date
FIND
Addicted CEG'er
No I think as far as strength goes, the engines are fairly equal. Remember, you can make a cast iron piece a lot thinner than an aluminum piece, because cast iron is a harder metal. Therefore thats where the weight difference is made up, because the cast iron parts block can be thinner or machined to smaller tolerances and still maintain the same strength. Both engines have their strengths and weaknesses, I wouldnt say either is superior, and just as a point of clarification. GM is not using the LS1 either, they are now using different engines in the LS series, but I still think the LS1 is a good engine. Just because an engine was replaced in favor of a newer engine doesnt mean that the older engine was junk. It just means the bean counters dont want to continuously produce dozens of different engines when they could produce only a few for cheaper. Ford shifted from the windsor engines to the modular 4.6L engines for the same reason most car companies have shifted most of their engines of OHC configurations. Emmissions, power/fuel economy ratios, durability, and whatever other reasons they come up with.
Also a 4.6 would fit if you made a subframe to fit it. It would be tight, but it would fit. But you are right, it is silly to disregard an engine that meets your needs just because of the manufacturer, as long as it isnt a chrystler product. Hell ford was putting mazda engines in a lot of their vehicles for years, and noone complains about that. It worked out great.
lie detector hooked up to a gun...... idk, they both have their strengths in my mind, I guess it would depend on your goals and budget. I think the best way to go if someone was looking for RWD would be a 3.0 in a rear drive configuration, simply because you would save yourself a LOT of hassle with tuning and wiring.
sorry, but if you are talking about an LS1 compared to a production 5L, then you are very far off. a production 302 block splits in half at about 500 whp. in fact, i cracked one on the #2 main in my fox body. the webbing is crap. You can put all the forged crap in their you want, the block is junk. you need a 4-bolt main aftermarket or the BOSS block to have the same strength as a LS engine, considering the LS1 has 4 bolt mains, and is swedged between the skirt with 2 more horizontal bolts ( i guess makes it 6-bolt mains??) LS1 aluminum blocks are known to be reliable at 700 hp.
enjoy some reading here:http://www.theturboforums.com/stockblock.php
so what is faster? isnt acceleration what is important, i dont understand.....the goal of a performance car is to accelerate as quickly as possible, and as was stated already, area under the curve takes it
FIND
Addicted CEG'er
No definately not impossible to do. But I think you are underestimating the difficulty in this kind of project. As far as doing a full frame, whats the sense in that on a unibody car? You just fab up the front and rear subframe, and put on subframe connectors and you are good to go. As far as keeping it Carb'd that is a silly idea. It would be easier to put on a piggyback fuel and ignition controller for a V8 than eliminating all the fuel and ignition controls from the ECU. For a driveshaft you can get driveshafts fabbed up fairly cheaply. I would go with a universal joint style driveshaft just in consideration of maintenance and durability.
As far as the rear end goes, yes you could use a 9" solid axle rear end, but the width is not right. Plus, independent suspension would be far superior anyways. As far as suspension goes, you could mount coilovers into the current mounting points, and would not need to brace them anymore than you need to brace them now. Although one should use strut tower bars.
But you arent done there. You do still need a fuel tank, which probably would just be a fuel cell in the trunk. And you would need to set up some type of steering configuration.
Anyways, I think you are underestimating the difficulty of converting a vehicle that is made in a FWD configuration only, without anything similar to adapt parts from. Fabricating these parts are not the simple thing it looks like on TV. Thats why you dont see a lot of "Kits" out there except in a market where people reasonably anticipate enough sales that they can spread their development costs out and still offer their kit at a reasonable cost, like with the focus which has a good enthusiast following.
Yes, when you are starting to get up there with the power, the LS1 has an advantage, but only an idiot wouldnt upgrade his internals, or buy a better block if they are building that kinda power.
i guess im an idiot then, hahaha. I did get 7000 miles out of it with stock internals, 14 psi, 410 hp and 474 ft lbs
FIND
Addicted CEG'er
I'm kinda suprised. I have seen stock blocks hold up to a lot more with only forged pistons and rods. More than 500 even. Even stock internals should handle 14 lbs on a 302.
the big blow was the headgasket. I guess 30 lb injectors werent enough. the detonation also collapsed the ringlands and locked up the rings. when i tore it down i noticed the crack on #2.
it was 7000 hard miles, though.
KyleQ
Hard-core CEG'er
I wouldn't trust the stock subframes to handle the torque that a V-8 can produce... Sure you can use the stock subframes - but I'd tie them into the unibody as much as I could.
Simple idea - and much more cost effactive.
Easier then installing a carb eh? :shrug:
CV as in double caradan - CV means constant velocity, doens't imply a FWD vehicle type joint...
Early Bronco width would work just fine.
That is why people are swapping out IRS Mustang rear ends for a solid one eh? Too much bull
for IFS - a simple double triangulated 4 link with coilovers would be much easier and stronger.At least the tower bars - should be enough.
Yup
And you would need to set up some type of steering configuration.[/QUOTE]
What is wrong with using the stock setup or manual steering?
No need to adapt parts from anything - an attitude like that is why nothing ever gets done. I may be learning by doing in the fabrication world, you dismiss the project by making it over-complicated. If I wasn't already in the middle of a fabrication project and had more space I'd start on a project like this. Maybe in the future - when I have a larger shop of my own I'll take on a project like this. You can get a Contour for less then $500, a running 5.0 for less then $500, a working T-5 for less then $500, an EB 9" for less then $150, coilovers for ~$250 a piece, fuel cell for less then $200 and then you are just left with DOM for the rear 4-link, plate steel for brackets and gussets and DOM tubing for the beefy front subframe and possibly bracing in the rear. This doesn't have to be an expensive project- it would just be time consuming...
FIND
Addicted CEG'er
ok, feel free to prove me wrong. I havent been doing this kinda stuff for 15 years for nothing. BTW, you couldnt use the stock subframes. You would have to FAB up subframes. As far as the unibody goes, it is more than strong enough to handle a V8 until you go adding a buncha power to it, as long as you use subframe connectors to brace it a little better.
As far as steering goes, you couldnt use the stock steering rack. You would need spindles and knuckles from a rear wheel drive setup. I am not sure if a mustang steering rack would work out or not, the one that they are using for the focus kit probably would. You have to remember that much of what is holding the front together is the driveshafts that you would be eliminating if you went to a RWD configuration.
Yes the electronics would be easier and more reliable than a carburator. You have to remember that even if you eliminate all the other electronics in your engine, you still have all the wiring behind your dash, your pats, there is still a computer there that tells your instrument cluster things like temperature, speed, RPMs, and fuel level. You cant just pull your computer unless you want to rewire the whole car, and install aftermarket gauges in place of your cluster.
I am aware what a CV axle is. I am saying that the double caradan is going to give more maintenance issues than a single universal on both ends. Since there would be relatively little suspension travel and a nearly dead on pinion angle, it is just not necessary anyways. A slip yoke out of the transmission and single universals would probably be more than sufficient. Plus it's cheaper just to have that fabbed and balanced than a CV.
I havent recently measured an early bronco 9", but I doubt the width is dead on with a contours wheel base, fairly certain it aint even close. you would have to cut and weld the differential to the correct width, then get some axle shafts made up.
Solid rear axles are superior on a dragstrip. However, there is no sense in doing all this crap to a contour if it cant corner when you are done. But yes, a four link is easier to build.
Either way, I am in no way saying its impossible. It would be very time consuming yes. There is a LOT of work involved, and if you dont know much about chassis building, I would suggest you dont undertake it, or you find someone who you can rely upon for information. As far as cost goes. No it wouldnt be cheap. Do you have a tubing bender? Are you a good welder? Do you know what type/thickness of tubing you need to use? I am pretty confident about my fabrication abilities. I will do custom motor mounts and what not, I will do a lot of stuff. But when it comes to subframes and parts like that, yeah I would just rather leave it to a real professional. Thats just me though. I still think you are seriously underestimating the cost and difficulty of this swap. This is not an attitude that wouldnt get things done. I would do it if I knew I had the money for it. But your cost estimates.... that is really low. I would figure a minimum of $8 or 9k. A well done RWD setup would end up costing $15-20k
As far as steering goes, you couldnt use the stock steering rack. You would need spindles and knuckles from a rear wheel drive setup. I am not sure if a mustang steering rack would work out or not, the one that they are using for the focus kit probably would. You have to remember that much of what is holding the front together is the driveshafts that you would be eliminating if you went to a RWD configuration.
Yes the electronics would be easier and more reliable than a carburator. You have to remember that even if you eliminate all the other electronics in your engine, you still have all the wiring behind your dash, your pats, there is still a computer there that tells your instrument cluster things like temperature, speed, RPMs, and fuel level. You cant just pull your computer unless you want to rewire the whole car, and install aftermarket gauges in place of your cluster.
I am aware what a CV axle is. I am saying that the double caradan is going to give more maintenance issues than a single universal on both ends. Since there would be relatively little suspension travel and a nearly dead on pinion angle, it is just not necessary anyways. A slip yoke out of the transmission and single universals would probably be more than sufficient. Plus it's cheaper just to have that fabbed and balanced than a CV.
I havent recently measured an early bronco 9", but I doubt the width is dead on with a contours wheel base, fairly certain it aint even close. you would have to cut and weld the differential to the correct width, then get some axle shafts made up.
Solid rear axles are superior on a dragstrip. However, there is no sense in doing all this crap to a contour if it cant corner when you are done. But yes, a four link is easier to build.
Either way, I am in no way saying its impossible. It would be very time consuming yes. There is a LOT of work involved, and if you dont know much about chassis building, I would suggest you dont undertake it, or you find someone who you can rely upon for information. As far as cost goes. No it wouldnt be cheap. Do you have a tubing bender? Are you a good welder? Do you know what type/thickness of tubing you need to use? I am pretty confident about my fabrication abilities. I will do custom motor mounts and what not, I will do a lot of stuff. But when it comes to subframes and parts like that, yeah I would just rather leave it to a real professional. Thats just me though. I still think you are seriously underestimating the cost and difficulty of this swap. This is not an attitude that wouldnt get things done. I would do it if I knew I had the money for it. But your cost estimates.... that is really low. I would figure a minimum of $8 or 9k. A well done RWD setup would end up costing $15-20k
Dyoel182
Addicted CEG'er
For that kind of money you better believe I'd be mounting an engine in the rear like some track day specials I've seen.
FIND
Addicted CEG'er
On my last escort engine swap I posted a buncha pics of my "V8 swapped escort"
There were a lot of really annoyed people on FEOA.net when they saw the can in the engine bay.
I would probably do the same thing on here. Even after warning you guys.
There were a lot of really annoyed people on FEOA.net when they saw the can in the engine bay.
I would probably do the same thing on here. Even after warning you guys.
A few of us in Wi have been talking about v8 RWD contour swapa for years. One of us wants to do it right and have it nice. I've been thinking of doing a junkyard wars/monster garage style V8 RWD swap just to shut everyone up that it can't be done. Ideally I'd drop an LS6 in it with a 6speed,probably a ford 9in in the rear. Then again the SR20DET powered contour would be a hoot.
z06killinsbf
CEG'er
The reason I brought it up is because I have a complete driveline (351W, AOD, and access to a number of 8.8's) and the ability to mod/fab all said parts. I would go carbed, 4 linked and a fuel cell. As long as the 4 link is done right, it should handle fine, plus, it's a damn street car. Who cares if it can handle like a Porsche? I don't. Most roads around me are ridiculously straight anyways. Just seeing if anyone else has considered this. Sorry I dont spend thousands of hours researching this site for an idea for my beater car.
KyleQ
Hard-core CEG'er
FunInNorthDakota - I won't bicker with ya, but I am a very good welder, have a hydro tube bender, know about chassis design, cutting down axle tubes and measuring for shorter shafts, building subframes, motor mounts, 4 links and fabrication. I have every tool at my disposal to build a car from the ground up - building a front subframe wouldn't be that hard... 2" DOM or Chromoly @ .125" thickness would be more then enough to handle anything you could throw at the car. I'd build it for a fun street/strip car - sounds like you are leaning towards a auto-x style of build. An EB 9" is ~58" WMS to WMS - a Contour is ~69" wide... with the correct backspacing you could tuck the tires under the sheet metal. As for PATS and the gauge cluster - a simple Autometer setup would be sufficient, but trying to use the stock cluster would be a fun challenge.
FIND
Addicted CEG'er
ok, my fault, I guess I underestimated you. Yeah the autometer setup would be sufficient, but the big pain there is rewiring. It's on the same level as building a kit car or restoring a car, yeah, but not really necessary in my opinion.
I think a piggyback fuel controller and ignition controller would solve everything there, and allow you to keep EVERYTHING else about the cars ECU and wiring stock. Thats what appeals to me the most, since I would prefer a car that looks like it could have come from the factory like this. That and the climate we both live in should honestly make fuel injection very appealing anyways. And yeah I would of course be more focused on an autocross style of build, but instead of a four link for you, I wonder why you wouldnt just do a three link instead. You are compromising a lot less streetability using a three link than you would a 4 link. Food for thought.
Big Jim
Hard-core CEG'er
ahhh bench racing :laugh:
It is time to toss this up again. This thread has been entertaining. I should have made some popcorn.
As I posted a long time ago, it is only a matter of time until someone does a rear wheel drive V8 conversion. Who is going to be the pioneer?
KyleQ
Hard-core CEG'er
It will happen some day - the SVT model is beggeing to be converted. I'd have it say SV8 on the side where my car says SVT
FIND
Addicted CEG'er
dont chop up a perfectly good SVT to be the experiment. Find some worthless GL or SE, then when your concept works, put it in an SVT.