• Welcome to the Contour Enthusiasts Group, the best resource for the Ford Contour and Mercury Mystique.

    You can register to join the community.

Old 2.5L; Better to Upgrade to 3.0L?

S

Savior

CEG'er
Joined
Dec 6, 2002
Messages
306
Location
Honolulu, Hawaii
Here's a question for the experts:

So my original, stock 2.5L in my '98 E0 is getting mighty old and wheezy-sounding at around 130,000 miles, and has significant performance loss. At first I thought to have my abused old 2.5L rebuilt, but when I tried to have my MSDS headers installed a year or so ago, the exhaust guys told me the 13-year-old original bolts holding the stock headers on are so rusted that they'd have to break them off and install new ones. I'm guessing rebuilding would be an overly expensive venture that would yield less HP in the long run than just upgrading to a 3L, correct?

I've been hearing that the built 3.0L Taurus/Escape engines that are pre-modified to bolt right into all the SVT's native hardware over at 3L Duratec Performance are much less expensive, more powerful (by about 20HP), and far more available than a stock SVT 2.5L, and usually only have about 40k on them.

It should be noted that, although I could allow the current old engine to wheez along until 200k mark, I'm largely trying to restore/increase performance and hope to eventually turbo with a Nautilus T3/T4 turbo.

So I guess my main questions are:

-Are the above-montioned engines recommended by you experts? Should I go with one of these? Or have my 2.5 rebuilt? Keep in mind that I live in Honolulu, Hawaii with no access to any place that's going to know how to mod a CSVT engine, nor do I have any automotive engine skills myself; I kind of need a drop-in replacement, and want a performance upgrade too. Is there anything bad about these engines I should know about?

-Seeing as I do plan to turbo later, maybe aroud 9 or 10psi, should I order 42lb injectors and have them installed with the 3L if I were to get one? Or wait till later? Would 19lb SVT injectors work with a turbo in a 3L without blowing something?
 
go with a 3l. but it will cost u monies. at least just under 2 grand. the average hp for a 3l is 200whp not crank hp. most svts 2.5l are about 170whp some even less. thats thats at least a 30 hp difference. and beleive me it tranforms the car!

remember you dont need anyone to know about your car except you! everything you need will be on your stock engine. and you will need to research to see what swaps over. its a matter of mix and matching parts. but u also need some other stuff such as torsen lsd, at least an svt clutch, and a fuel line adapter if you go full 3l.

dont put in any other injecters in there other then what the car came with. and also get a tune!
 
So, I DON'T need to buy 24lb or 42lb injectors, even if I turbo?

Also, the FAQ on the 3L Duratec site says:

5. How hard is this 3L swap to install?
If you have basic mechanic skills and tools, typical installation time for a beginner is about 10-12 hours once the stock motor is out. Our 3L’s are modified so that all of the 2.5L parts bolt directly up without any modifications. If you can install a stock motor then you can install one of our 3L’s.
6. If I bring to a shop or look for parts, what would I tell them I have?
90% of the time you will tell them you have a stock 2.5L engine. All the general maintenance items are the same oil filter, oil, plugs, sensors, alternator, starter, belts, and the majority of the gaskets. The only differences would be internally if you ever needed to tear the engine down at a later date.


From Duratec Performance FAQ


They say no modifications or extra parts? And I could actually tell the mechanics at the shop that it's just a direct 2.5L swap-out and unless they tore down the engine they wouldn't be any the wiser..?
 
if you turbo you need like #32 or higher. most 3l's come with #24's so i wouldnt change that, ford put those in for a reason.


#5 is if you go with blackcoug's already built engine, they make ported engines, so if that what you want then go for it, but if you read it more carfully, it says its only the engine, u need a better clutch i would say and possibly without a torsen you could say bye-bye to your dif


what the question 6 states is that if you do a ported 3l swap, the engine is basically identical as the stock 2.5l. if you something breaks down and you take it to a shop they can work on it like then would like a normal 2.5. but if you go the full 3l, theres stuff that is different, and it has mixed and matched parts from both the 2.5 and the 3.0 so the shop would get confussed and probably charge you more. it would be easier to fix it yourself
 
I've never installed a 3L myself, but here's my opinion based on my observations here:

In my opinion, some members are too gung-ho in recommending a 3L swap. It's a huge job for a beginner and a lot can go wrong -- broken/seized parts, broken tubes/hoses/wires/tabs, etc. The junkyard 3L is something of a gamble. Some techniques are still debated here (porting, nautilus fuel adapter) among apparent experts. Troubleshooting problems can be extremely time-consuming.

Is this car your daily driver? Can you afford to be without it? Do you have a place to do the work? What's your budget for the project?

An alternative would be to troubleshoot your current performance issues. A popular way to restore lost performance is to clean the UIM and LIM. That's not a huge project and can give you an idea about whether you want to get into an engine swap.
 
yes alot can go wrong but its not as hard as an "engine swap" sounds like. after swapping most of the parts and covers, the engines are plug and play. nothing compaired to what the honda guys do
 
It is my daily driver, but I live less than a mile from my work and have a bike, and there really isn't a such thing as "bad weather" in Hawaii, or nothing that an umbrella couldn't take care of.

And thanks for the good info so far, but for a start I must re-emphasize that I am totally engine-retarded. I don't even know what porting means for instance. I've never even seen a motor taken apart. Me taking apart a car engine would have about the same result as an attention-deficit meth-head taking apart his home stereo: It's never going back together in one functioning piece of any kind.

I really wish I knew these things, but I have no automotive background whatsoever, and being active duty military doesn't give me much free time to pursue such hands-on education... Maybe some day.

But for right now, I have to have a car/engine that is generic and practical enough to be worked on by almost any decent mechanic, not all jury-rigged with weird parts and irreplaceable stuff that requires special know-how. Not that I wouldn't love to do something like that, I just don't have the local tech support, the knowledge, or the resources to do it at this point.

So... I guess I should most likely go with the upgraded Torsen differential, tougher clutch (Grizzly? Spec Stage x?), and the motor build that is the most direct bolt-on swap-out, so I could simply take all these parts to the shop with my car, describe which engine parts need to be transferred to the new engine block, and leave it for them to set up, then take it for a tune at a dyno later (I own an XCal2)?

Is this a good plan, given my circumstances? Am I missing other things?
 
i would not recommend having a shop doing your swap. especially because you need to port the heads.
start reading 3l swap threads and you will learn alot and see what im talking about. they'll charge u a ••••load and possibly •••• it up anyways.

doing the swap doesnt even require taking the motor apart... just certain covers and manifolds. its all easy peazy. trust me, i had zero expereince with car when i did my swap and i was 17
 
If he buys a 3L from Blackcoog, the engine comes ported and almost ready to drop in. He would just need to have the accessory's put on the new engine, right?

At 160k I'd definitely put in a new clutch at the same time. The stock SVT clutch is a good choice for a 3L from what I've read. A Torsen diff would be great but not absolutely necessary if your not abusing the car. I think you would need a competent transmission shop to install it in your trans.
 
Well just a year or so ago I had a brand new LUK clutch put in, and it still feels strong.

OK... I could actually think about doing this, maybe over the winter, seeing as I don't actually have to disassemble an engine. I do have a garage. What sort of stuff would I need? Can you rent cherry-pickers to pull an engine with?

Also, does this blackcoog guy run the Duratec Performance site I linked to in the OP?
 
Yes, blackcoog is 3lduratec.com. His 3L engines generally require no extra work than a 2.5L engine swap from a mechanical perspective. One difference is that even with the SVT computer in your car you'll get the most performance out of a tune.

As to one of your earlier questions about porting, 2.5L engines used two holes per cylinder to let air in, this was to allow the use of multiple intake velocities to get the most power out of an engine. 3L engines come with just one larger oval hole that is about the same area as the two holes of a 2.5L. Porting an engine means taking the oval port 3L engine and removing material so that the engine matches the 2.5L intake manifold. There's plenty of pictures here and on NECO (the new edge cougar website, which is essentially a contour with 2 doors.) in their 3L section that cover porting.

I would definitely go with one of blackcoog's engines if you daily drive your car, my cougar's been down for a month now and it's a PITA dealing with my swap without a working car.
 
Are Blackcoog's engines pre-port matched for the SVT intake manifold..? I ask because I have no real way to do machine work or metal modifications...
 
Just to throw it out there .... Have you checked to make sure the secondaries are working correctly? Even if only one bank is not working there is a significant decrease in performance.
 
I can hear the secondaries opening; they're pretty loud.

the big thing is that this engine was abused/rodded a good bit before I bought it (the clutch died within a month and its on its third clutch now), and it's not gonna get any better at 130,000 miles. The other big thing is that I recently heard the SVT, although rated at 195hp or 200hp, only actually dynos at a measly 165hp. These two things together make me really want a 3L. If there's any way I can pull this off I would like to try...
 
That's 200 CRANK horsepower, not WHEEL horsepower. All car dyno less then what they're "rated" from the factory. My SVT has almost 170k on the original engine and it runs like its brand new. I even autocross it every other weekend during the summer.

It's not a matter of mileage, it's a matter on maintenance.
 
Yeah, and the mainenance on this 'tour isn't exactly golden; I've always kept the fluids/oil/oil filter up to par, but you can tell it wasn't always like that. Also, the big thing is that, even if I completely repaired my 2.5L, it would just be a waste of time and money; All I would end up with is a moderate-condition old 2.5L that still only dynos at 165WHP and still has 130,000 miles and 13 years of wear on it.

At first I thought of turboing it, but that would be over $4,000 with install (versus, $2,500 or $3,000 for a stronger engine that has more potential of turbo anyway), and turboing at this point would probably shatter my differential and possibly make my old engine explode. Gotta replace the heart before you upgrade the lungs, so to speak. The info from this thread, and pricing on the engines makes me want to try and get a 3L; Plus, the final outcome just looks so much sunnier than some last-minute 2.5L turbo effort...

I just hope I can pull this off.
 
I dunno about you but my dd still puts a smile on my face everyday when I get into the secondaries, that is when they are working....it has 160k miles and is also 12 years old. It only has 170 hp, so maybe 140 at the crank, and it has alot more usable power then my 3L turbo. That is so because it handles the corners in the road the same way. Not to say that the 3L turbo isn't fun as hell also, but they are very different beasts.

sounds like you just want more power but don't want to get a new car? the miles and age shouldn't matter if you enjoy driving the car, imho.
 
sounds like you just want more power but don't want to get a new car?
Click to expand...

Pretty much.... You're saying I should keep the 2.5 and turbo it..? I do like low-end torque and snappy, powerful response moreso than high-end power. I'm not going to be doing over 60-70mph (highest speed limits in Hawaii) anyway. What would be the best strategy to do this? A turbo or a 3L?

Note: I have an XCal2, so I can get a tune for whatever mods I get...
 
Don't get a turbo for a daily driver. A 3L will fit what you are looking for exactly. Lots more low end (more power everywhere really) than the 2.5L and reliable.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top