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Custom Kick Panels etc...

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ConcepTrs913

Veteran CEG'er
Joined
Feb 18, 2006
Messages
683
Location
Hoffman Estates, Illinois
Well I've been doing a lot of reading on the old CEG about kick panels and component sets. I have gathered a few things.

Components in the kick panel and a woofer (specifically 8) in the door sounds the best.

MY question is, is the tweeter also located in the kick panel or is it put somewhere else to raise the sound stage?

If you were to have the kick panel component setup with the woofer in the door, how would one wire up the door woofer along w/ the crossover for the 6.5" component, assuming the 4 channel amp is perfectly stable at 2 ohms?

One on the same topic, but I couldn't find an exact answer. Does it matter if the crossover is installed in the rear of the car far away from the actual components? The reason I ask this is because I would like to be able to mess around with the x-over if needed w/o taking off the door panel.

I don't have too much money to be spending on components that is why I am picking up a set of Boston Acoustics SL60 components, so feel free to let me know what you guys think about that decision.

Thanks for the help guys, and from reading past posts hopefully SoundQ SVT and HonkeyTonkMonkey can chime in w/ their words of wisdom...

Oh also another question. I am debating between Boston Acoustics SL60 (80rms) and Diamond D661 (100rms) for an amp that will put out between 75-100rms x 4 (Boston Acoustics Gt-42) depending on voltage. Which do you guys think I should go with?
 
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relocationg the cross over in the rear isnt a bad thing to do but you have to remember ohms law while doing this. the longer the speaker wire the more resistence there is. the more resistence the less sound you get. but when you put the components on the floor it is acualy better sound for the fact that you angle then to you. rule of thomb is to have all speakers point in the direction from which the listener will be seated. also you should always keep the tweeter with the mib as close as posible so that you dont start mixing your highs in one place and mids in another. I.E. You here the high in the left ear and mid down on the floor get wwhat im saying?
 
TvDowt732 said:
relocationg the cross over in the rear isnt a bad thing to do but you have to remember ohms law while doing this. the longer the speaker wire the more resistence there is. the more resistence the less sound you get. but when you put the components on the floor it is acualy better sound for the fact that you angle then to you. rule of thomb is to have all speakers point in the direction from which the listener will be seated. also you should always keep the tweeter with the mib as close as posible so that you dont start mixing your highs in one place and mids in another. I.E. You here the high in the left ear and mid down on the floor get wwhat im saying?
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Unless you can adjust the timing to the components. You mount the tweeter higher up and the mid towards the floor and sub in the door but you have to adjust the timing so they all reach the point of reference(listeners ear) at the same time
 
yes you could do that but you have to have a radio that will allow that adjustment. and also just overall just easier to put them the way i had said. but yes your right you could do that. just much more of a pain in the ass:cool:
 
TvDowt732 said:
relocationg the cross over in the rear isnt a bad thing to do but you have to remember ohms law while doing this. the longer the speaker wire the more resistence there is. the more resistence the less sound you get. but when you put the components on the floor it is acualy better sound for the fact that you angle then to you. rule of thomb is to have all speakers point in the direction from which the listener will be seated. also you should always keep the tweeter with the mib as close as posible so that you dont start mixing your highs in one place and mids in another. I.E. You here the high in the left ear and mid down on the floor get wwhat im saying?
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unless you're running < 10 wrms, wire length in a vehicle isn't a concern.

as for which direction to point your speakers, it will greatly depend on which speakers you get. you really don't want metal domed tweeters pointed directly at you as they tend to sound a little harsh at the higher volumes people seem to like to run them at. in this instance, an off-axis mount will be better.

also, the theory that you need to mount your tweeters close to the mid driver isn't always true, as many people will mount tweeters higher to bring up their sound stage.

i've heard good things about the boston SL line, fwiw.
 
If you want good components I would go focal or alpine type x if you want to spend a bit of money. Most people usually go with everything right by each other.
 
ConcepTrs913 said:
That seems to be the only question I have left... Thanks for chiming in guys.
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you could wire it parallel off of the crossover with the component speaker, but it wouldn't be ideal. you're better off wiring it parallel ahead of the component crossover and wiring in a passive in line with it.
 
MxRacer said:
you could wire it parallel off of the crossover with the component speaker, but it wouldn't be ideal. you're better off wiring it parallel ahead of the component crossover and wiring in a passive in line with it.
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Alright, that is what I was thinking. Now the only problem w/ that is the load will be 2 ohms and thus the amp will output more power. In that case the amp will put out like 125 rms (or 150 I can't remember). That will then be a problem if my components are 80 rms? Right? And then what would I have to get a woofer that handles for power?
 
ConcepTrs913 said:
Alright, that is what I was thinking. Now the only problem w/ that is the load will be 2 ohms and thus the amp will output more power. In that case the amp will put out like 125 rms (or 150 I can't remember). That will then be a problem if my components are 80 rms? Right? And then what would I have to get a woofer that handles for power?
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well, it's not a problem because the speakers will be sharing that additional power, so in reality your componenets will be seeing closer to 60 watts.
 
Alright so I've figured I'd get an 8" woofer for the doors. I assume it will fit (probably w/ modification) because other CEG'ers have done it before. As far as the passive filter, what should be the cut off? I was thinking maybe about 90 hz and lower, read that somewhere on old CEG, for the door woofers.

Currently I really want to get into the audio game for SQ because my old system was good (some of you may know) but not great. I can fabricate the fiberglass kick panels w/ no problem but I just really am kind of stuck w/ the custom audio components, so anything you guys can chime in about I'd really appreciate
 
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ConcepTrs913 said:
Alright so I've figured I'd get an 8" woofer for the doors. I assume it will fit (probably w/ modification) because other CEG'ers have done it before. As far as the passive filter, what should be the cut off? I was thinking maybe about 90 hz and lower for the door woofers.

Currently I really want to get into the audio game for SQ because my old system was good (some of you may know) but not great. I can fabricate the fiberglass kick panels w/ no problem but I just really am kind of stuck w/ the custom audio components, so anything you guys can chime in about I'd really appreciate
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well, if you're looking in SQ, there's a lot more to it than just picking speakers and mounting them. you're going to want to look at drivers that will work well together in the style you plan to mount them. this will also affect how/where you cross them over. i.e. if you're mounting 8" woofers in the door (which will require cutting) then you'll probably want them crossed over fairly low so it's not pulling your imaging all over the place. 90hz is a good starting point though.

as for fabricating your kicks, the design will have a lot to do with how you need to aim the drivers.... and that will be determined by what drivers you decide to get.

do you see where i'm going with this?
 
Yeah, I know there is quite a lot to figure out and I know that I probably will not get it right the first time. I am reading quite a bit about this stuff online but it just really, to me, is better (plus easier) to ask people who have experience on the topic. I mean I have to start somewhere, I know this all doesn't come easy.

Basically the reason why I want to go w/ a kick panel install is because (from what I've read and I know I can't believe it all) it is the best place to install the speakers because of how they are aimed.

As far as how some drivers would work well with others, I really don't know where to begin to look for that. I really want to try something different here that is going to be very beneficial, but practical to achieve.

Currently I am looking to get a system (basically all Boston Acoustics because I can get a really good price on the equipment) that is going to sound extremely well without going too overboard. That is why I am curious to know all about the woofer in the doors and the kick panel install and if it is actually worth it for me to do.
 
In case you missed it in other threads, my kicks are aimed basically at a point above the front window on the opposite side of the car. Example: the driver's side kick is aimed at the grab handle above the front passenger side window.

I also am using a "point-source" driver, which is sometimes referred to as a coincident driver. What this means is the tweeter is located down in the apex of the woofer cone. It is similar to a coaxial, except the tweeter is not on a post in front of the woofer. This gives a mechanical phase alignment that is simply not possible with component speakers mounted in different locations. Yes, electronics can compensate, but always with a cost. Usually to make one seat sound better with bad speaker locations (such as tweeters far away from their midranges), you must make all the other seats worse.

One location to watch out for: under the dash just to the left of the radio location is a smooth curved panel that blends the side of the radio bump to the bottom of the dash (close to the driver's right knee). The reflection from this panel can generate a nicely focused center image even though only the left speaker is playing. This is obviously not a desirable situation and can be minimized/eliminated with proper aiming of the speakers that are selected.

As far as system design, I would say use your 4 channel like I have mine: Channels 1 & 2 are for the mid/tweets located in the kicks (or wherever you put them in the front). Use the passive crossover networks that come with the component set. Channel 3 & 4 are for the 8" subwoofers in the doors. Use the amplifier's built in crossover network to split the signal between the subs and the mids/highs. I am only running a 75x4 amp of my own, and it is plenty loud and clear for most anything you would need to do except enter an spl competition.

Let me know if you need any more suggestions.
 
SoundQ SVT said:
In case you missed it in other threads, my kicks are aimed basically at a point above the front window on the opposite side of the car. Example: the driver's side kick is aimed at the grab handle above the front passenger side window.

I also am using a "point-source" driver, which is sometimes referred to as a coincident driver. What this means is the tweeter is located down in the apex of the woofer cone. It is similar to a coaxial, except the tweeter is not on a post in front of the woofer. This gives a mechanical phase alignment that is simply not possible with component speakers mounted in different locations. Yes, electronics can compensate, but always with a cost. Usually to make one seat sound better with bad speaker locations (such as tweeters far away from their midranges), you must make all the other seats worse.

One location to watch out for: under the dash just to the left of the radio location is a smooth curved panel that blends the side of the radio bump to the bottom of the dash (close to the driver's right knee). The reflection from this panel can generate a nicely focused center image even though only the left speaker is playing. This is obviously not a desirable situation and can be minimized/eliminated with proper aiming of the speakers that are selected.

As far as system design, I would say use your 4 channel like I have mine: Channels 1 & 2 are for the mid/tweets located in the kicks (or wherever you put them in the front). Use the passive crossover networks that come with the component set. Channel 3 & 4 are for the 8" subwoofers in the doors. Use the amplifier's built in crossover network to split the signal between the subs and the mids/highs. I am only running a 75x4 amp of my own, and it is plenty loud and clear for most anything you would need to do except enter an spl competition.

Let me know if you need any more suggestions.
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bob, your still using xtant amps? are your midbass's bandpassed thru the amp on channels 3/4? if not and just using a lpf for the midbass how are u separating the midbass lower frequency and where your subs take over?
 
ConcepTrs913 said:
Basically the reason why I want to go w/ a kick panel install is because (from what I've read and I know I can't believe it all) it is the best place to install the speakers because of how they are aimed.
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Your ears don't judge the height of the speakers nearly as much as where they're at horizontally. Think about home theater. You wouldn't wanna be off to the side, you wanna be in the center.
 
Berkel said:
Your ears don't judge the height of the speakers nearly as much as where they're at horizontally. Think about home theater. You wouldn't wanna be off to the side, you wanna be in the center.
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you're mostly correct. by putting the speakers in the kicks, you're maximizing the available distance available to you for a front soundstage in a vehicle, and in doing so, making the pathlengths closer. but, you are still only a few feet from the speakers, and if they are at your feet, it's not impossible for the soundstage to be a little low. many people will run auxillary tweeters up on the dash somewhere to try and raise it up.
 
MxRacer said:
you're mostly correct. by putting the speakers in the kicks, you're maximizing the available distance available to you for a front soundstage in a vehicle, and in doing so, making the pathlengths closer. but, you are still only a few feet from the speakers, and if they are at your feet, it's not impossible for the soundstage to be a little low. many people will run auxillary tweeters up on the dash somewhere to try and raise it up.
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Word tweeters are more directional than anything so I guess that sounds good :cool:
 
MxRacer said:
you're mostly correct. by putting the speakers in the kicks, you're maximizing the available distance available to you for a front soundstage in a vehicle, and in doing so, making the pathlengths closer. but, you are still only a few feet from the speakers, and if they are at your feet, it's not impossible for the soundstage to be a little low. many people will run auxillary tweeters up on the dash somewhere to try and raise it up.
Click to expand...

When you say aux tweeters do you mean adding a second set in to try and raise the sound stage or do you mean having the tweeters mounted high and then the mids down in the kicks?

Oh and another question. If I had a HU that has time alignment so I can set how far the speakers are away would it still be beneficial to do the kick panels? Or could I just leave the mids in the doors and put the tweets up by the sail panels and have the same effect?
 
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ConcepTrs913 said:
When you say aux tweeters do you mean adding a second set in to try and raise the sound stage or do you mean having the tweeters mounted high and then the mids down in the kicks?

Oh and another question. If I had a HU that has time alignment so I can set how far the speakers are away would it still be beneficial to do the kick panels? Or could I just leave the mids in the doors and put the tweets up by the sail panels and have the same effect?
Click to expand...

yes, i mean a second set of tweeters.

time alignment will help, but only for the driver. the passenger side will sound completely off.
 
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