never heard of it on a contour/mystique. who knows about other vehicles. but if it worked then thats great.
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Never-ending CEL story - What now?
- Thread starter abyssius
- Start date
never heard of it on a contour/mystique. who knows about other vehicles. but if it worked then thats great.
Shot in the dark here, but how old/good is your battery?
Let me relate a quick story - I killed the tranny in my '00 CSVT and ended up waiting almost a year to drive the car again. Battery did hold a charge, so I got the car fixed and had a ton of O2 related CEL's (almost always one bank over the other, can't remember which). The battery seemed pretty normal except that it was a little on the weak side when starting. Charge voltage was normal (measured with a voltmeter) and I had no warning lights related to the battery or charging system. Since the car ran perfectly, I was at a loss to figure out what was really causing the problem (seemed unlikely that some or all O2 sensors died after sitting a year).
I finally replaced the battery, because it was just a little too weak to start the car reliably, even though it seemed to hold a charge just fine from one day to the next. All my CEL's related to O2 sensors went away completely.
Here's what I think caused it. Maybe this will apply to your car too. The EEC, like all microcomputers, has some onboard power regulation, which is quite a bit better than your voltage regulator provides. So, the inputs that it uses to read the O2 sensor outputs have a very specific and constant rail voltage. The O2 sensors have no precise regulation - they're tied to whatever fluctuating voltage is at the output of the 12V voltage regulator (which often has a ton of ripple, especially if the battery is marginal). So, the bad battery charging behavior shows up as a voltage level shift or ripple at the O2 sensor output. Which the computer flags as bad O2 output.
It's been a couple years since I replaced the battery and I haven't had an O2 CEL again.
If your battery is old or marginal, maybe you could just borrow one temporarily? Even replacing it is cheap compared to all the other things you're trying.
SoCal94 (108k miles now... this happened at 70k miles)
Let me relate a quick story - I killed the tranny in my '00 CSVT and ended up waiting almost a year to drive the car again. Battery did hold a charge, so I got the car fixed and had a ton of O2 related CEL's (almost always one bank over the other, can't remember which). The battery seemed pretty normal except that it was a little on the weak side when starting. Charge voltage was normal (measured with a voltmeter) and I had no warning lights related to the battery or charging system. Since the car ran perfectly, I was at a loss to figure out what was really causing the problem (seemed unlikely that some or all O2 sensors died after sitting a year).
I finally replaced the battery, because it was just a little too weak to start the car reliably, even though it seemed to hold a charge just fine from one day to the next. All my CEL's related to O2 sensors went away completely.
Here's what I think caused it. Maybe this will apply to your car too. The EEC, like all microcomputers, has some onboard power regulation, which is quite a bit better than your voltage regulator provides. So, the inputs that it uses to read the O2 sensor outputs have a very specific and constant rail voltage. The O2 sensors have no precise regulation - they're tied to whatever fluctuating voltage is at the output of the 12V voltage regulator (which often has a ton of ripple, especially if the battery is marginal). So, the bad battery charging behavior shows up as a voltage level shift or ripple at the O2 sensor output. Which the computer flags as bad O2 output.
It's been a couple years since I replaced the battery and I haven't had an O2 CEL again.
If your battery is old or marginal, maybe you could just borrow one temporarily? Even replacing it is cheap compared to all the other things you're trying.
SoCal94 (108k miles now... this happened at 70k miles)
abyssius
CEG'er
Thanks for the reply, SoCal94. My battery is a 2 year old Duralast unit. I've never seen any symptoms of weakness with it. However, I will try cleaning up the terminals to make sure good connectivity is occuring. I just paid $400.00 to a shop to fix vacuum leaks at the IMRC rods that no one ever heard of before. I drove away with no CEL. Turned the car off. When I went to start it again, the CEL re-appeared. I haven't checked the codes yet. I'm not emotionally ready to face the fact that I might have wasted another $500.00, on this never-ending CEL story. I'll check it tomorrow.
I came late on this thread but is a titbit. Freeze frames. It is the parameters of the condition of the engine "frozen" at the time the CEL came on. Hence, the term freeze frames. With freeze frame data, you can deduce what caused the CEL to come on.
Actron Scan tool (the $175 one) can read and store freeze frames. Most AdvanceAuto or Autozones will also read the codes for you (free) but they will probably not go through the hassle of repeating the freeze frames to you.
Actron Scan tool (the $175 one) can read and store freeze frames. Most AdvanceAuto or Autozones will also read the codes for you (free) but they will probably not go through the hassle of repeating the freeze frames to you.
abyssius
CEG'er
Further Update: In keeping with the never-ending saga, I made and installed MIL eliminators for bank 1 and 2 according to the instructions from this forum, which promptly cleared P0420, P0430. After installing the eliminators, I fully expected the car to be error code free - as the repair shop charged me $400.00 told me they fixed the problem lean codes problem (P0171, p0174) by using RTV on the IMRC rod passages.
However, after driving the car around for a day, the never-ending CEL earned its name yet again. The P0171, P0174 codes came back! I returned the car to the shop and left it with them for two days. They called me and told me to pick up the car and drive it around for about 50 miles then come back so they could inspect it (BUT DON'T TURN OFF THE CAR!).
I drove away and didn't get a block before the CEL came on again. I cleared the CEL by pulling the fuses, then drove around for 50 miles and returned to the shop.
Looked okay. No CEL. Everything seemed to be going okay until they sent a junior mechanic to pull the car into the repair bay, who promptly turned off the car. Of course, upon restart the never-ending CEL came back. They ran the inspection test anyway, which predictably failed due to P0174, P0171.
At this point, I had no choice but to leave the car with them yet again. However, I'm afraid that they'll simply say they can't fix it without installing a new Lower Intake Manifold. If this becomes the case, I'll have to walk away. I don't know if I can get my money back for a repair they failed to make, but I'm not going to pay them $$$$$ to purchase and install a new LIM. So far, I've invested over $1000.00 simply to get an inspection sticker!
I'm not even sure that these guys who advertise themselves as Ford specialists even have the diagnosis right. However, I currently don't own diagnostics tools such as a fuel pressure gauge, smoke tester or a code reader to perform my own diagnosis.
I'm wondering if anyone has a LIM for a 1998 Vin code L V6 thay they'd want to part with for a reasonable price?
P.S. I'm sure this thread is getting boring, but it really helps me to be able to vent to anyone that might understand my frustration. Thanks.
However, after driving the car around for a day, the never-ending CEL earned its name yet again. The P0171, P0174 codes came back! I returned the car to the shop and left it with them for two days. They called me and told me to pick up the car and drive it around for about 50 miles then come back so they could inspect it (BUT DON'T TURN OFF THE CAR!).
I drove away and didn't get a block before the CEL came on again. I cleared the CEL by pulling the fuses, then drove around for 50 miles and returned to the shop.
Looked okay. No CEL. Everything seemed to be going okay until they sent a junior mechanic to pull the car into the repair bay, who promptly turned off the car. Of course, upon restart the never-ending CEL came back. They ran the inspection test anyway, which predictably failed due to P0174, P0171.
At this point, I had no choice but to leave the car with them yet again. However, I'm afraid that they'll simply say they can't fix it without installing a new Lower Intake Manifold. If this becomes the case, I'll have to walk away. I don't know if I can get my money back for a repair they failed to make, but I'm not going to pay them $$$$$ to purchase and install a new LIM. So far, I've invested over $1000.00 simply to get an inspection sticker!
I'm not even sure that these guys who advertise themselves as Ford specialists even have the diagnosis right. However, I currently don't own diagnostics tools such as a fuel pressure gauge, smoke tester or a code reader to perform my own diagnosis.
I'm wondering if anyone has a LIM for a 1998 Vin code L V6 thay they'd want to part with for a reasonable price?
P.S. I'm sure this thread is getting boring, but it really helps me to be able to vent to anyone that might understand my frustration. Thanks.
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Maybe your MAF is bad again. Is there anyone that you can swap MAFs with to see if it will fix it? Make sure all the hoses hooked up after the MAF are in good shape and attached properly. You could spray the carb cleaner around while the car is running and see if it changes the idle that might find the leak if it exists. My Dads expedition had those codes and we lucked out and just sprayed the MAF and it fixed it.
abyssius
CEG'er
Thanks for the reply, svtavino
Unfortunately, swapping out the MAF for another one is not a possibility. I don't know anyone in my area that has a contour or mystique V6 model. The MAF is new and under warranty, so if it's bad, I could get a new one.
I've tried all the DIY things like checking hoses, spraying around with carb cleaner, etc. with no success. That's why I brought it to a repair shop. They did a smoke test and told me vacuum leak exists at the IMRC rod and some of the vacuum lines by the firewall. They wanted to replace my LIM and when I declined, they said they could 'fix' the leak for $400.00. I went ahead with this but apparently they failed to fix the leak. Right now, I left the car with them, since IMHO they are responsible to complete the repair that they took $400.00 of my money for. So, although I'd be more comfortable if I were able to fix this myself, I'm stuck relying on this repair shop right now. It sucks!
BTW, I looked at your car pics. Beautiful SVT!
Thanks for the compliments I really need to get some new pictures of it. It is lower and has better sized tires on it now.
As for your problem it seems those guys hosed you at $400. Do you have a K&N Filter on this car? I know when I put one on my wife's old Mystique with to much oil it started causing it to lean out and ping. Removed it and cleaned the MAF and all was good after. I never saw that you replaced the regular in line fuel filter this could casue it to lean up top but run at the right pressure at idle.
As for your problem it seems those guys hosed you at $400. Do you have a K&N Filter on this car? I know when I put one on my wife's old Mystique with to much oil it started causing it to lean out and ping. Removed it and cleaned the MAF and all was good after. I never saw that you replaced the regular in line fuel filter this could casue it to lean up top but run at the right pressure at idle.
abyssius
CEG'er
The green color is sensational. I"d love to see some new pictures to cheer me up!
I might be naive, but it's hard to believe that they would intentionally 'hose' me, even though I didn't really know them. They happened to be right around the corner from my house and claimed to be Ford specialists. It's probably that they just aren't sure what they're doing.
ghent96
CEG'er
Could I join on this thread?
My Mystique through nearly all of it's 9 years so far (purchased Nov 2000 near Houston, TX) has had almost a never-ending CEL
Usually it is code P0455 or something similar - "fuel system pressure/ evap leak" etc. I assume it is always due to not having the fuel cap on right, or the aftermarket replacement fuel cap I have.
Also having code P0430 - "Catalytic efficiency below threshold in bank 2"
Not really sure what to do. Research on the web reveals these possible causes: (red highlights have been ruled out already by me)
· Malfunctioning Engine Coolant Temp sensor / Cylinder Head Temp sensor
· High fuel pressure
· Damaged exhaust manifold
· Cylinder misfiring
· HO2S wiring concerns (shorted or chafed, bent pins, etc.)
· Damaged exhaust system pipe
· Damaged muffler/tailpipe assembly
· Retarded spark timing
Damaged Catalytic Converter:
· Use of leaded fuel
· Oil contamination/consumption
· Silicone contamination (sealants/cleaners)
My Mystique through nearly all of it's 9 years so far (purchased Nov 2000 near Houston, TX) has had almost a never-ending CEL
Usually it is code P0455 or something similar - "fuel system pressure/ evap leak" etc. I assume it is always due to not having the fuel cap on right, or the aftermarket replacement fuel cap I have.
Also having code P0430 - "Catalytic efficiency below threshold in bank 2"
Not really sure what to do. Research on the web reveals these possible causes: (red highlights have been ruled out already by me)
· Malfunctioning Engine Coolant Temp sensor / Cylinder Head Temp sensor
· High fuel pressure
· Damaged exhaust manifold
· Cylinder misfiring
· HO2S wiring concerns (shorted or chafed, bent pins, etc.)
· Damaged exhaust system pipe
· Damaged muffler/tailpipe assembly
· Retarded spark timing
Damaged Catalytic Converter:
· Use of leaded fuel
· Oil contamination/consumption
· Silicone contamination (sealants/cleaners)
Dan the rug man
CEG'er
Next
Next
I would suggest changing the Engine coolant temp sensor. Fairly cheap and easy to complete. It helps to drain a little coolant out prior to removing the old one. If the ECM is not getting the correct info about engine temp it gives you the wrong fuel mix. This may affect the Cat readings.
Start at the top of your list and work your way to the bottom. I believe Ford set the order of the list with most likely cause first.
Next
I would suggest changing the Engine coolant temp sensor. Fairly cheap and easy to complete. It helps to drain a little coolant out prior to removing the old one. If the ECM is not getting the correct info about engine temp it gives you the wrong fuel mix. This may affect the Cat readings.
Start at the top of your list and work your way to the bottom. I believe Ford set the order of the list with most likely cause first.
This.
I just swapped this $17 part and the car's been code free for a week. The most recent trouble code was the 0420/0430. Took 30 minutes, 1 19mm socket, and some liquid gasket to seal the sensor in place. It's cheap and it could help narrow down the problem.
~Mike~
ghent96
CEG'er
Ok, good advice you 2. Thanks. I'll give that engine coolant temp sensor a look here in the near future.
Where's it at, just in case my Hanes manual doesn't tell me...
Where's it at, just in case my Hanes manual doesn't tell me...
Page 2 of 6, Chongo, scroll down to the middle bottom picture.
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/500739/2
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Not at all. We have all been in this situation at some time. I find explaining to someone what i've been doing helps me see things i may have overlooked. I can't believe some of the prices you have been quoted. I fix my own and i find that even if i make a mess of the job first time... i can correct my mistakes and still end up spending less than paying a garage ..well most of the time. Check the classifieds.. the guys have a ton of parts .. so where are you up to now? ..G. edit; just realised you guys write the date back to front... still; anyone know how he got on... too often guys don't report back
TRicker
Hard-core CEG'er
i had many codes on my car from things i changed and such over the years, to the point where they couldnt even be corrected with a tune or replaced parts. my tuner started to ask me "hey, i have a lot of codes that i can't" and i interrupted with "can you just turn it off all together?"
lol couldnt get a CEL if i wanted to
lol
couldnt get a CEL if i wanted to JKoffler44
CEG'er
Hanes Manual has just a description of what the ECT sensor is, not any procedure on replacing it. At least none listed in the index.