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3liter vs hybrid vs COP revealed

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Sooooo... let me get this straight in my head because reading what you posted 3 times over made my head hurt.

If I just look at the graphs, you are posting them at 210-ish HP and 180-ish TQ... Are these true hybrids or are these something else? Please clarify the specific makeup.

Next question, you are saying you can't compare because they are two different graphs - But I can clearly see whomever the dyno operator was started the "sampling" later than the other one? Is that a fluke? No, I doubt it. I kept watching your "turbo" videos on the dyno and you didn't floor it or start sampling till 3,000+ RPM. That's fine and all, however gives us no idea what the bottom end is like.

Again, I see a bunch of graphs. And I see you said it took $1000 to build your engine. However was this with a SVT intake and cams or without? You are not saying the exact buildup. Right now, using just the data I see the straight 3L would lay you out - That's a no brainer, you have no midrange and no bottom end. Just because you have a peak - That means that engine will only surpass the straight when hard accelerating on long gears where you can keep it in gear. The straight 3L would eat you on the bottom end, your HP numbers become irrelevant until you get to a gear that you can stay in the high RPM (5300+) for more than a few seconds. This precludes all 3 first gears mostly. We only just shift into 4th before we're through a quarter mile - That race you just lost. Unless you guys like a "top speed shootout" the hybrid has nothing really more to offer. The torque band could be flat as a railroad - but if it's 20lbft less.. It's irrelevant. And same for the HP - You can't build engines on the basis they perform better in one range. There isn't enough room on the streets to use the peaky HP to it's full benefit. So how is this a street racing win? Remember first 3 gears are pointless as you don't stay in any one area very long for it to make a difference. The only thing you will feel is the torque (which the straight has a massive load of it in the middle range) that will accelerate the car faster. You are clearly right that the SVT style setup has more top end (never my debate) - However what good is that top end when you can't tap it fully until 4th or greater? That's speeds of 90+.... Try that on the street, most races are over before that.

And lastly, your time difference graph. I still have a bad feeling that you don't understand how it works. 2 cars, same dyno, same runs with same RPMs. You have shown me a ton of graphs. I can overlay a straight 3L to those graphs and point out where the issues are. I'm sure it's a nice setup overall - But the TQ numbers are low, and HP isn't everything when it comes to winning. The car has to be able to accelerate (to your high HP peak #'s) before they are relevant. If the straight has the torque beat all the way to that point and it's HP/TQ peak comes on quicker - Again... the hybrid loses.

-Dom
 
You mentioned the cars were different and the tires which you even stated the mph was off at 5252 rpms between the cars, so knowing the mph was off between the two cars we cannot compare the two in time. We are also assuming we are using the same final gear here the only reason to cars mph will be off is the tires overall diameter is different. And lets think we are in a perfect world here and two cars have the exact same power even the same motor. The car with the smaller tires will rev faster to a rpm and even mph due to fact that the resistance created by the dyno will be easier to turn with a shorter wheel than a taller wheel. Therefore the shorter tire will accelerate faster since the point of contact will be closer center of axes decreasing the amount of torque required to turn the load barriering roller. Now I am just clarifying this to you on why I even debated your comments in the first place since I can clearly see that the comparison cannot be equal unless you swapped the wheels to other car.

Now as far as power I agree the oval port intake is tuned more for midrange which is so obivious since that is the only part is really different since we know the torque curve is identical between the two cams. But I will share some more info we have is that the SVT cams do have .20 more lift then the escape cams on the intake lobe. We did a dyno on the two different cams on the SVT motor and the escape had the same torque curve but netted 10whp less them SVT across the whole band.

So away from the COP because we all know coils does not make power just substains the spark if it is used like they should be and fired only when needed unlike the three coil pack. The long blocks are identical for the two setups so power can only be different in stock form by the upper oval intake forms which we all know is different between taurus, escape, etc. So I am willing to spend a whole day at the dyno to swap intakes on the same motor to see for everyone some info we can gain from the setup.

I will start out with the oval port plastic taurus manifold which I have and then straight over to a split port intake to verfiy that the power which is direct relation to airflow since some people feel the upper is to small therefore the SVT UIM should suffer less power up top since I will be using the 3 liter cams for the test. Since we are talking about direct motor swaps so there is no cams issues with comparison. We know the SVT cams with more lift will net 10whp more period and should not change the torque curve on the 3 liter since it didn't on Ross's SVT.

Let me break down the cost of the engine we will be testing cost.
Labor cost is 70 hr

my first dyno

3 liter SVT UIM no secondaires

2001 escape $500
LIM mod $325
Fuel adapter $75
Gutted precats
Super chip $250 with tune
Cold Air intake $100

14 rs swap
1 hr gutted precat
0 hrs modification
15hrs total ($70/hr)

labor $1050
parts $1250
total $2300

second dyno

3 liter full swap

2001 Taurus Motor $500
Fuel Rail Adapter $100
superchip w/tune $250
gutted precats
TB mod
EGR mod
coil pack relocate
cold air intake $100

14 hrs motor swap
1 hr gutted precats
1 hr EGR mod
1 hr TB mod
1 hr Coil Pack relocate
18 hrs total ($70/hr)

labor $1260
parts $950
total $2210


Next option
3 liter swap COP

2004 taurus $500
Fuel system mod?$$
New wire harness COP $175
gutted precat
cold air intake $100
superchip w/tune $250

14 hrs motor swap
1 hr EGR
1 hr TB
1 hr gutted precat
17 hrs total ($70/hr)

labor $1190
Parts $1025 + fuel mod ?
total $2215 + fuel mods?

Joey
 
Ok... Let's leave the the COP out of this. It is not specifically for performance and not needed to get this "configuration" and cost analysis done. It's an addon that can be added at anytime - So let's leave that aside.

Now... my calculations are this...

My cost wholesale to your cost wholesale minus labor..

2005 Taurus Complete Engine (with 10-20K) -$450
3L EGR Tube -$40.00
3L Fuel Rail - $120.00
3L Ignition Coil - $60.00
SCT (Not SuperChip) dyno tune and custom burn - $550.00
Returnless adapter - $75.00

That's $1295 for our setup. Of course this is leaving labor and all the other stuff out - But for the price it's not bad. A 200FWHP engine nonetheless.

Parts - $1295
Labor - $1400

Total - $2695

You said you don't install engines so your quote on times are a little "off" to say the least. I know building the engines (hybrid) vs. your mod and my install are all variable and have different "efforts and times" variables.

You only charge $250 for a chip and tune? Maybe it's just me but is that the "mail order tune" or the real thing. No dyno shop will tune and chip for $250. Perhaps you need to review your charges for "accuracy" before posting against real numbers that someone could walk up to me today with and get the job done. I'd hate to see you "cut yourself short" or misquote a job. Unless you are lowballing - Which then wouldn't suprise me. I'm not hiding anything - There are plenty of my customers out there that will back up how much they paid and every service and charge was clearly outlined. I don't make a dime off of the tune and chip - Call my dyno shop (330-794-8950) ask for Eric. He can explain what a "mail order chip" tune is and why it's great for driving to a dyno tuner (to get tuned)- Not using it as a regular tune. It makes me cringe that people think that you aren't leaving something "on the table" with this style of tune. Perhaps for $250 it's worth it - But if it were me and I just invested time and money in doing it - Do it right the first time...

Anything I'm leaving out?

-Dom
 
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COP is not limited to any year motor swap. Its limited to who wants to swap their valve covers out to COP style, and who wants to wire everything.

Similarly a 2005 motor with 1999 svt valve covers can run a standard ignition
 
Who knows whats being debated anymore. They are running the whole gamut(rara is dumb) of 3 liter swaps as a debate. I think they may even be arguing different things at this point.

The bottom line is that Buckeye prefers to use 05+ full three liter swaps and refuses to hear anything else about us retards over here that use "OLD" stuff. Joey and Tom are trying to defend the older swaps, and prove some of the inconsistencies that may or may not be prevalent in this argument.

Honestly, for people that are genuinely interested in the 3 liter swap, they will have done all the research necessary and will have decided what they want out of the swap. They will have come to their conclusion already.
 
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exactly. i already made up my mind. im going 3l block and heads. then after that all i know is that it will look like the normal sleeper svt engine.
 
Pudmunkie said:
The bottom line is that Buckeye prefers to use 05+ full three liter swaps and refuses to hear anything else about us retards over here that use "OLD" stuff.
Click to expand...

Was that necessary? You think I feel that way? Are you my spokesperson? That's a pretty derogatory and flamatory statement to make. Shoudn't you save the flamebaiting for elsewhere - This discussion just became civil, leave it as such.

-Dom
 
I dont think it was flamebait. thats how your posts come across. I think the whole debate is retarded. My main point of contention is that you guys are arguing back and forth and wont change each others minds.... its pointless.

And while it may be civil here, all you do over on FCO is talk **** about Tom and Joey, so dont try and play the role of a saint.
 
There is one more issue that I think needs to be brought up as it's not being said.

Joey and Tom's mod depends on the car being an SVT (or having the SVT parts). Those costs do not factor in to owners with SE models or GL/LX/SE. The cams, and SVT UIM are extra cost - Figure roughly $500 on the shallow end. Therefore, anyone looking to move from a 2.5L (in any other configuration without SVT bits) will be looking at $3000+. My option requires no existing parts needed or reused - No hidden costs.

-Dom
 
Pudmunkie said:
I dont think it was flamebait. thats how your posts come across. I think the whole debate is retarded. My main point of contention is that you guys are arguing back and forth and wont change each others minds.... its pointless.

And while it may be civil here, all you do over on FCO is talk **** about Tom and Joey, so dont try and play the role of a saint.
Click to expand...


Dude, I'm the minority talking to the majority. You know the odds here of what my word is against Tom and Joey's. You really should let the thread play out - Not tell people I'm calling them "retards". That's stupid. "I" think you are a retard for bringing any of this up as it has nothing to do with the subject at hand. Again, if this can't stay on topic - There's no use in discussing it anymore. You clearly read everything over at FCO as everyone else does. Your "feelings" don't factor into this discussion unless the thread title states "Pudmunkies Feelings thread".

-Dom
 
Lets keep this civil remember?

I answered Ian (yamaha's) post. He wasnt sure himself what the whole argument was over. Perhaps I could have answered him without interjecting my own language, but rather spitting out the generic terms. But thats the beauty of forums, its a place to voice an opinion. My 'feelings' are the same as my opinion, the same as your opinions are your feelings... So unless you want to STFU, dont comment on me laying out my opinion.

Thanks,
 
BuckeyeSVT said:
There is one more issue that I think needs to be brought up as it's not being said.

Joey and Tom's mod depends on the car being an SVT (or having the SVT parts). Those costs do not factor in to owners with SE models or GL/LX/SE. The cams, and SVT UIM are extra cost - Figure roughly $500 on the shallow end. Therefore, anyone looking to move from a 2.5L (in any other configuration without SVT bits) will be looking at $3000+. My option requires no existing parts needed or reused - No hidden costs.

-Dom
Click to expand...


only the hybrid. ur option uses a full 2005 engine while we agian have been using 2001-2003 full swaps. your just trying to tell us that the 2005 swap is better?? or what are we arguing now Cop is better? or are we arguing that the hybrid or 2005 full swap or any full swap its faster in the mid range? up top? from a rolling start?

this thread has 2-5 different arguments going and frankly i dont know which one you guys are arguing now. though it is fun to read
 
Pudmunkie said:
Lets keep this civil remember?

I answered Ian (yamaha's) post. He wasnt sure himself what the whole argument was over. Perhaps I could have answered him without interjecting my own language, but rather spitting out the generic terms. But thats the beauty of forums, its a place to voice an opinion. My 'feelings' are the same as my opinion, the same as your opinions are your feelings... So unless you want to STFU, dont comment on me laying out my opinion.

Thanks,
Click to expand...

Wait? You're asking me to civil? Lol....

You are the moderator "setting the example". How is putting words in my mouth "keeping things civil" when you damn know that it will start a commotion? You are flamebaiting period. That's not a feeling - It's a fact.

-Dom
 
Forget it, its just going to fall on deaf ears.

Have a good one dom
 
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BuckeyeSVT said:
Wait? You're asking me to civil? Lol....

You are the moderator "setting the example". How is putting words in my mouth "keeping things civil" when you damn know that it will start a commotion? You are flamebaiting period. That's not a feeling - It's a fact.

-Dom
Click to expand...
My $0.02... I appreciate that you guys have gotten over whatever and have begun with the "civil" discussions. The long term hostilities between the 2 sites have accomplished nothing. But Pud does have a valid point in that many of your (and Terry's) posts on FCO are slanderous of the general CEG population... which is probably why he's already prejudged this discussion.

Perhaps CEG & FCO needs an Ombudsman :laugh:
 
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