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Weird?

DyComet said:
Ok, speaking of problems. I had to take the valve covers off today due to a minor oil leak on the rear cover and I decided to torque down the cam caps to spec since the engine had already been running fine and oil had a chance to get in there. When I tried to start it back up the engine was running very rough and stalled out. WTF is going on with the cams? I'm guessing one of them is binded and I'm about to take it all apart and put the 2.5L cam caps on there. If I do this, do I need to pull the timing chain off this engine and completely redo all the timing to ensure that the cams work fine? I have another car so right now I'm more concerned about getting this running the way it should. Thanks in advance for your help.
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Well you SHOULD have done this right in the beginning before you started it.
With that said, I'd swap out the cam caps with the 2.5L ones right now in the hopes that I can fix any issues first before yanking everything back out. Just swap them out one at a time and you can leave the chains installed.
The right way is to figure out exactly what went wrong and fix it.....but you're already committed so it doesn't hurt to try something else before doing it all over again.

Most of you don't know it but the 2.5L cams and 3L cams have a different sized thrust surface.
The 3L cams have a larger thrust surface on them than the 2.5L ones so you would be better off using the 2.5L thrust caps with the 2.5L cams anyway. It's normally not an issue because the 2.5L thrust being smaller fits easily in the 3L thrust caps.
 
I'm going to be pulling the valve covers today to check the cams. I will be replacing every cam cap with the ones from the 2.5. I might not finish today because of Easter festivites with the family but I will keep everyone posted.
 
Yep, I followed the manual. I pulled the cam caps one by one today to try to identify the problem. Sure enough here it is...
cam007.jpg

cam008.jpg

cam009.jpg

The cam itself had no scoring on it what so ever. All the other cam caps on that head were in perfect condition. I'm guessing that this kind of damage to a cam cap is the problem that I've been having. Now for the question, do I have to swap over all the 2.5 cam caps or just replace this one? Any other advice you have to offer is welcome as well.
 
Yeah, I was going to check the head to see how it looked. Could I just crank the engine with the starter with the valve covers off to see how well it spun?
 
The head side is scored as well. I can't tell how bad but I can see just by looking down on the cam that there are scoring marks on it. Right now I don't see me having too many options. Should I start looking for another 3L head or is there anything else I can do?
 
Well I'm going to have to pull timing on that head anyway so I'll have the cams out for a thorough inspection. I really hate to have to do this but I don't know what choice I have.
 
Well, the life of me having a 3L is hanging in the balance right now. I might just end up going back to the 2.5 and parting most of what I have on the car right now. I'll decide in the next few days but if anybody wants a 3L with some work let me know.
 
The only problem is that I can't find out what caused this to happen the first time. If I knew the cause of it the decision would be much easier. But what is to say that I put the new head in and this exact same thing happens again.
 
DyComet said:
The head side is scored as well. I can't tell how bad but I can see just by looking down on the cam that there are scoring marks on it. Right now I don't see me having too many options. Should I start looking for another 3L head or is there anything else I can do?
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Just hand sand that one cam journal down on the head with some 400 grit paper and finish with 600/800 grit. You can use a fine half-moon, small file to clean it up and make it smooth.

Remember, it is only ONE cam journal so the load is spread out. Also, the load is more on the caps the further away from the timing chain that you get.

Clean that one up, replace that one cap.

And for Christs SAKE....STOP STARTING THE MOTOR TO CHECK OUT YOUR WORK! Do what I told you the first time and pull the chains off, pull all the roller finger followers out and spin the cams by hand after you clean up any upraised portions of metal where the bearing surfaces are scored.
Replace any cap you find that is damaged with the corresponding 2.5L.
lube with oil, reassemble, torque to spec, and try to turn these cams by HAND! If they turn easy enough by hand with no roller followers then you will be fine to put the top end of the engine back together.

If you just look at the time you are wasting now as compared to how much you would have spent had you just pulled it apart the first time when it was binding, then you would have already been done.
 
The car will be repaired according to Tom's repair instructions. I'm going to be completely removing timing from all cams and ensuring that they have free movement. My only question is that since the cam cap had some small gouges on it if the cam journal is the same would I need to fill the gouges or would I be able to just smooth them down?
 
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Well, I got the cams and everything taken off today. I had a chance to see what kind of damage was done to the head. The head itself didn't look too bad at all upon first inspection and after a couple minutes with some 400 and 800 grit sandpaper they are almost like new. But here's the catch, I got some cam lube assembly and removed the roller finger followers and tightened the cam caps down to spec. That baby wouldn't budge at all in there. So here's what I'm going to do tomorrow. I'm going to get the 3L cams I still have and see if they rotate freely in there. If they do, I'll know it's a cam problem. Then I'm going to transfer over all the cam caps from the 2.5L and put the SVT cams back in there to see if I can rotate them then. If not, who knows. Does this sound like it would work and what opinions do you guys have on what could possibly be going wrong?
 
DyComet said:
Well, I got the cams and everything taken off today. I had a chance to see what kind of damage was done to the head. The head itself didn't look too bad at all upon first inspection and after a couple minutes with some 400 and 800 grit sandpaper they are almost like new. But here's the catch, I got some cam lube assembly and removed the roller finger followers and tightened the cam caps down to spec. That baby wouldn't budge at all in there. So here's what I'm going to do tomorrow. I'm going to get the 3L cams I still have and see if they rotate freely in there. If they do, I'll know it's a cam problem. Then I'm going to transfer over all the cam caps from the 2.5L and put the SVT cams back in there to see if I can rotate them then. If not, who knows. Does this sound like it would work and what opinions do you guys have on what could possibly be going wrong?
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That is the best way to tell.

What year 3L are you using?
Take a micrometer and measure the diameter of the cam bearing surface and see if they are the same between 3L and SVT cams. They should all be the same diameter since these cams use a thrust surface
 
I installed the cam caps from the 2.5L and now am I supposed to be able to turn each cam by hand or be able to turn it with all the timing installed. I still can't spin each cam by hand even with the 2.5L cam caps.
 
Well after some more exploring I believe I found my problem. In my effort to find why the cams wouldn't spin I overlooked the most important detail, the cams themselves. Where the cam sits on the head there were some very small rough spots on the cams. After turning the cams in the head I found that it became difficult to turn the cam even with the cam caps just barely on. I took some 800 and 1000 grit sandpaper and carefully worked out the rough spots in the cams. Now with the cams installed and cam caps at full torque I am able to rotate the cams. The front exhaust cam is a little harder to turn than the rest but it spins none the less. Is this going to present a problem for me? Take note, that I couldn't spin any of the cams by hand after removal of the timing chains. I polished the journals in the head to the best of my ability and was able to get them very clean. The cams are a bit more difficult to completely clean up. If I get them all to a point where I can rotate them by hand should I be ok to put the engine back together? Also, the cams don't exactly spin easily in there, it can be done with one hand but there is resistance which I think is normal but I would like to confirm. Thank you everyone for your help.
 
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