Comparison of turbo to supercharger

There is Great news for the duratec owners. You now have two affordable options for your cars, the supercharger made by Blackcoug and the turbo kits made by Nautilus.

Both have their own distinct advantages so I thought we'd compare the two kits in this thread and answer any question people have. The comments and the questions arise in the other threads and it looks like people are stepping on each others toes....and we don't want that.

We can also add Nitrous to this thread as well if there is a "real" nitrous guru who wants to talk about it.
I've driven all three types of cars so I have first hand perspective of each.
However, I'll only talk about the turbo systems and I'll let Blackcoug talk about the supercharger advantages/limitations since he is the new resident expert.

Turbo
- flexibility. Available in different configurations for both 2.5L and 3L engines with nearly any desired power power level you want to achieve depending on your engine build. The kit is upgradeable when you want by changing key components to meet different boost levels or different engines.

- cost/performance ratio. The complete turbo kit can be purchased with a tune for under $3000 and it can produce between 250-300wHP depending on exhaust configuration and boost level. The basic stage one kit will work fine on a basic 3L as well.

-torque. The torque curve can be tailored by your choice of turbo trim but essentially with the basic 2.5L you'll be making 230-250ft-lbs at moderate boost levels. The torque curve can be progressive or very linear depending on trim. Sudden onset or delayed onset, etc.

-boost control. The basic turbo can have the boost raised with just a needle valve or ball and spring controller. There are affordable two-stage boost controllers that can use a switch on the wheel to trigger higher boost for higher gears or better traction. THere are completely electronic and programmable boost controllers that can control boost level in EVERY gear!

- Fuel economy. With the appropriate tune the off-boost economy is quite good and will probably be within 2mpg of the rated factory mpg. The 3L will regularly see 25-26mpg on the highway and the 2.5L will be a bit better. Essentially no parasitic loss.

- Reliability. There are turbo kits running since 2002 without issues if used within the limitations of the engine. No additional maintenance other than quality and more frequent oil changes recommended.

<===== (* Hears crickets... *)

You've made some valid & true points. I don't think anybody would argue in the least, nor could they. I do think that an open competition of posts between the two kits is potentially more destructive for both developers, rather than constructive for the community. If this gets going, I forsee some collateral damage long term. Benefits & shortcomings of both methods of FI have been well documented, and I also think that people who buy one over the other won't be swayed much by this kind of thread.

Here are a few of the largest benefits from the Supercharger setup:

1. Install. You've got 1/2 the piping work and it's all cold side tubes. No exhaust manifold replacement work, no hot pipes running hither & thither over/under the tranny, and you can run stock or MSDS headers. Piping is all aluminum intake piping meaning no rust ever. Removal is simple and can take less than an hour for those that need to remove for inspection.

2. Under hood temperatures will be lower. The SC headunit will generate some heat, but nothing like a turbo & all the piping it uses.

3. Less tq down low = good thing. For those with ATX's monster torque at low rpm levels before the line pressures fully build may cause significant wear on the clutch packs, no matter how cool you keep the fluid. For everyone this will be a good thing at the track or on the street to keep the tires from lighting up every time you get on the pedel. While it may look cool this is a FWD car so shifting tq and hp up is a good thing.

4. Cheaper upgrades. The vortech headunit in this kit is capable of flowing 800cfm and is used in more than a few applications putting out close to 600hp. To upgrade to higher boost you will never need to change the supercharger headunit. Higher boost will come from smaller pulleys and slightly different belt routing with an idler pulley to add more belt wrap on the supercharger pulley.

5. This kit will work on ATX. While we don't have an ATX car yet there is no reason this will not work on an automatic car. We do not run piping near the transmission.

6. Warranty. The vortech headunit is warrantied by vortech for one year. We will also offer a one year parts warranty to cover any part issues.

more to come....

To be fair:

1. Install... ...no hot pipes running hither & thither over/under the tranny, and you can run stock or MSDS headers. Piping is all aluminum intake piping meaning no rust ever.

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You can run stock, MSDS, WR, or ANY exhaust that bolts to the stock CAT location (ie, any aftermarket exhaust.. they all bolt up that way) on the Nautilus kit, TOO.

2. Under hood temperatures will be lower. The SC headunit will generate some heat, but nothing like a turbo & all the piping it uses.

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I won't argue that one. You are right. Intercoolers can negate that to some degree, but that is here nor there.

3. Less tq down low = good thing.

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Since when? I will say that if your particular niche is a slalom every day then sure.. you would want something that wasn't able to break loose down low. There ARE benefits to a supercharger, but let's be honest.. having less torque is NOT A GOOD THING, it is a acceptable loss, due to the secondary benefits you gain due to having less tq.

4. Cheaper upgrades. The vortech headunit in this kit is capable of flowing 800cfm and is used in more than a few applications putting out close to 600hp. To upgrade to higher boost you will never need to change the supercharger headunit. Higher boost will come from smaller pulleys and slightly different belt routing with an idler pulley to add more belt wrap on the supercharger pulley.

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A new pulley kit is.. what? ~$230-250 the difference in a 60-1 from the 57 trim which is offered in the stage 1 kit is what? $150. Not to mention that the kit COMES INTERCOOLED ALREADY, which you would have to then purchase if you want to run higher boost levels on a supercharged vehicle.

5. Warranty. The vortech headunit is warrantied by vortech for one year. We will also offer a one year parts warranty to cover any part issues.

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The same warranty will apply to the turbo unit. Manufacturers defects, etc. If you run low on oil and burn it up then that's your fault.. same as a vortech. Nautilus offers a one year warranty on the pipes, flanges, welds, and any included pieces.. Craftmanship, really.

Now, while you DID mention a couple of things that a Vortech unit provides that Nautilus doesn't (ease of install/removal) and underhood temps.. the rest is actually applicable to both units..

Good discussion guys I might have to add this to the FAQ at the top.

To be fair Ray,

I think the less torque comment was being described as a benefit to the ATX guys. For flat out performance sure, more = better, but to preserve the CD4E I think building the line pressure before onset of full boost is a better idea. True or not, I'd like to have more power, but I don't see the wisdom or feel the need to push this critical system in my car to it's limit until that limit has been explored a bit more thoroughly.

Now there has been talk of potentially offering a turbo system for the ATX cars, but I have not seen word one of development at this point. Gotta check the thread again.... The SC unit will be ready to bolt into any Contique or Cougar with a V-6.

I completely agree. I don't think that it would be wise to slam your CD4e with anything that hasn't been at least ventured in to before. I wasn't trying to be cynical, or anything. I just read the statement, and I saw

"for those with ATX's", then information followed..
Then the statement "for everyone..." and read it to mean that less torque is good for "everyone". You are right, though. To be fair, there are benefits for each. The biggest benefits that blackcoog has (at this point) are:

• ease of install/removal
• underhood temps
• applicable to any variant of the CDW-27 platform.

The biggest benefits of the nautilus kit (to me) are:

• bang for the buck (power:cost ratio)
• modular (upgradable... the SC kit is, too, but all the legwork is done on the nautilus kit.. already intercooled for one.. everything is there.. just a bigger turbo is what you need to buy.. possibly injectors, which again are the same as the SC kit)
• as stated above: intercooled
• power under the curve/ability to shift the power curve up or down; not a "set in stone" pro, however.... some people build dyno queens, some people build 1/4 mile cars.. some for top speed. Where is YOUR preference?

Since no one else is stepping up Ill throw some info on the Nitrous Part:

Nitrous Pros:

- Realitivly cheap price in comparison to Turbo or Supercharger setups
- Easily found on Ebay, lots of aftermarket support for Nitrous
- Easy to install
- Instant Power, No lag
- Under a 75 shot dosent require a tune
- Easy Power (Good gains on the Duratech)
- Dosent require a built transmission or an upgraded clutch.
- Easy to revert back to stock
- Dosent change the efficiency of the Engine
- "Cool" Factor

Cons:

- You have to fill the bottle constantly
- Really only usefull in a straight line
- Can be hard to launch a car with Nitrous
- Cannot be used on a day to day basis
- Can be very dangerous if installed improperly

I would debate whether or not you need a built clutch/transmission. For that matter, you don't "need" a built drivetrain for a turbo or a SC. Personally.. I think you "need" a build up for any of the three forms of forced induction.

Yea but you dont HAVE to run spray in 1st or second with a nitrous. You do run spray all the time. Fair enough that you could stay out of boost, but to replace the diff and stuff is going to take a lot of work digging into the car, Taking away from the ease of a Nitrous install.

TourDeForce said:

<===== (* Hears crickets... *)

You've made some valid & true points. I don't think anybody would argue in the least, nor could they. I do think that an open competition of posts between the two kits is potentially more destructive for both developers, rather than constructive for the community. If this gets going, I forsee some collateral damage long term. Benefits & shortcomings of both methods of FI have been well documented, and I also think that people who buy one over the other won't be swayed much by this kind of thread.

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Fortunately...I don't really agree. lol :laugh:
If you had the amount of PMs and emails I've had about the difference between the SC and the turbo....then you'd also agree that this is the best way to approach it so that all parties get a fair chance to represent.

TourDeForce said:

To be fair Ray,

I think the less torque comment was being described as a benefit to the ATX guys. For flat out performance sure, more = better, but to preserve the CD4E I think building the line pressure before onset of full boost is a better idea. True or not, I'd like to have more power, but I don't see the wisdom or feel the need to push this critical system in my car to it's limit until that limit has been explored a bit more thoroughly.

Now there has been talk of potentially offering a turbo system for the ATX cars, but I have not seen word one of development at this point. Gotta check the thread again.... The SC unit will be ready to bolt into any Contique or Cougar with a V-6.

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Agreed, it needs more exploration.

My take on it is that the ATX sucks up a huge amount of torque due to the viscous coupling. Therefore MORE torque would be required to in the lower ranges to get the power to the ground. Line pressures...if the trans is in good shape and goes into gear fine at idle then those should build sufficiently right off idle. WE aren't talking about hundreds more ft-lbs available at idle or just off idle, but we ARE talking about as much as another 75ft-lbs available by 2000 rpm, maybe more if you want.
Honestly....not too far off from a high power 3L mated to the ATX.
Heat would be your biggest enemy not the torque level...and I don't mean turbo heat I mean fluid friction. Upgraded coolers would be a must.

Anyway, what everyone seems to forget is that with a decent programmable boost controller like the GReddy EO1 you can program the boost by RPM and gear. As long as your comrpessor can push the air the boost controller controls the wastegate and allows complete control. Something you can't do with a centrifugal SC. You can have near instant spool by 2000 rpm but control the level of boost you want until you are at a comfortable rpm.
ATX or MTX.

Another possible issue is the ATX shifts too soon. What rpm does the blower make good power at again and is it shifting before you get the most out of it? Aren't the ATXs rpm limited more than an MTX?
Perhaps the blower is at max power Right when the ATX needs to make a shift. No matter what you think about line pressures, if the clutches are already engaged then you can handle a much higher torque load then you can when that transmission is trying to shift. You are more likely to experience slippage with the 1-2 upshift under heavy loads. To be fair though, both kits could do this to the ATX.
Again, with a turbo kit you can use the programmable boost controller to regulate the wastegate to reduce the torque right before the shift.
Maybe you can control a bypass valve on the Supercharger?

As a former turbo 3L CSVT owner, I can say that TQ down low in this platform SUCKS! There is only so much power you can use with these cars, period, without serious mods. First gear is useless, unless you're moving less than 1-2 MPH in a parking lot and it's dry. But, a programable boost controller could be one of the best additions to a turbo setup. But, that's not a basic setup at all.

Anyone making more power than a NA 3L, IMO, HAS TO upgrade their trans with an LSD ATLEAST. Anything less is begging for problems. I've said it before, and I'll say it again..... adding FI to this platform is the best way to find your weak links in your car, you will SNAP them. The clutch is also a very important aspect in this platform too. A bad clutch (crappy clutch material, crappy hubs, etc) will break with ease under FI. Ignoring this will haunt those who choose to do so.

warmonger said:

Fortunately...I don't really agree. lol :laugh:
If you had the amount of PMs and emails I've had about the difference between the SC and the turbo....then you'd also agree that this is the best way to approach it so that all parties get a fair chance to represent.

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I can imagine what you've dealt with as far as PM's, and as a salesman you are wanting to not offend the dumb noobs. This is a good thread to point them in the right direction to SEARCH this forum and all the info in the old forums. I am eager to see a side by side display of both kits with real world data and dyno results.

Why couldn't you run a boost controller on the SC like on a turbo setup to lower boost in 1st and 2nd? It would be simple to setup a BOV to bleed off air whenever you wanted similar to a staged boost controller. Actually I'm surprised I can't find something like that online. Maybe I'll put one together...

cause your bleed off from the BOV would have to be before the MAF (im assuming a blow through MAF setup) then whenever you shift and you actually have to use the BOV the air has to travel backwards through the MAF. thats not good for the MAF. now you might be able to setup a second BOV before the MAF for bleeding air only however that will raise the cost of the kit.

Blackcoog said:

Why couldn't you run a boost controller on the SC like on a turbo setup to lower boost in 1st and 2nd? It would be simple to setup a BOV to bleed off air whenever you wanted similar to a staged boost controller. Actually I'm surprised I can't find something like that online. Maybe I'll put one together...

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lol :crazy: Exactly my point. Right now there doesn't appear to be one but I was thinking about it and why wouldn't someone just want to use controller to vary the boost through the bypass.

Really, all you need is a large diameter ball and spring boost controller. As soon as the boost hits the level you want it will bleed across the ball back into the intake. It would close as necessary, essentially it would reach equilibrium and bleed only enough air back to the intake side necessary to maintain the correct pressure. If you did this and included it in your kit then you could remanufacture the pulley system to maintain the maximum rpm with the smallest pulley and just let the customer vary the boost level as their engine/tune permits.

striker2 said:

cause your bleed off from the BOV would have to be before the MAF (im assuming a blow through MAF setup) then whenever you shift and you actually have to use the BOV the air has to travel backwards through the MAF. thats not good for the MAF. now you might be able to setup a second BOV before the MAF for bleeding air only however that will raise the cost of the kit.

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See pics of this kit. This is a blow through setup = MAF after BOV.

As warmonger said it could also be done with a bypass valve.

ok no offense (maybe i was tought wrong) but a couple terms

blow through: MAF is after the compresser
draw through: MAF is before the compresser
Bypass valve: same as BOV only it recirculates the air


i agree it could be done very easily using either a bypass valve before the MAF or a Ball and spring boost controller as Warmonger stated. as for the placement of the actual BOV it is usually best to keep it within (IIRC) 18 inches of the TP. its also usually best to keep the air from going backwards through the MAF (they dont like that)

striker2 said:

ok no offense (maybe i was tought wrong) but a couple terms

blow through: MAF is after the compresser
draw through: MAF is before the compresser
Bypass valve: same as BOV only it recirculates the air


i agree it could be done very easily using either a bypass valve before the MAF or a Ball and spring boost controller as Warmonger stated. as for the placement of the actual BOV it is usually best to keep it within (IIRC) 18 inches of the TP. its also usually best to keep the air from going backwards through the MAF (they dont like that)

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No, you weren't tought wrong. Did you look at the pictures? I have a blow through setup it goes compressor, BOV, MAF, then into the engine. Meaning the BOV is before the MAF like I said above. Still confused?

Why would the air ever go backward through the MAF? In either blow through or draw through that shouldn't ever happen. Unless the engine starts pumping out air instead of pulling it in that won't happen.