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I'm blaming the tune...

hylix

CEG'er
Joined
Apr 13, 2004
Messages
229
Location
colorado springs
I just ordered Binary Editor + EEC Analyzer, and a Quarterhorse yesterday.

I plan to use it in my 2000 SE. I have an NPG mailorder tune running right now (flashed with xcal3), and hope to improve it.

My NPG tune was written for the original 2.5L, which has since been replaced with a 3.0L. I never heard back from Joey about my datalogs, so the tune was never tweaked accordingly. It did run the 2.5L well though.

The tune accounted for:
- 24# injectors (was planning to experiment with e85 at some point. prolly still will.)
- downstream O2 delete
- IMRC delete
- plus what ever NPG may have optimized for my mods list: Headers+y-pipe gutted LIM SVT induction, 91octane (best I can get at high altitude), etc.

Now that I have the 3.0 in there, It runs well, as long as the weather is nice. On cold days (below freezing) it pings like a M'er F'er until idle slows down. Wideband reports ~16 AFR while pinging. It still idles fairly smoothly, considering all the knocking going on under the hood. If I try to drive it, it will hesitate when releasing the clutch. Once it is partly warmed up (depending on how cold it is, maybe 30-60 sec.) it runs great, and AFR drops to 13-ish at idle. Once it is warmed up completely, AFR hops around between 14.3-15.6 at idle.

I'm assuming this is due to the tune thinking there's still a 2.5 under the hood, and the O2's haven't come up to temp yet to correct the fuel. I was hoping that the ECU would learn a new cold start strategy based off of the running strategy, I don't see any evidence of this happening though.

Also, even thought the engine runs well, It has no balls. I did use the 3L cams for some stupid reason, which puts the (very narrow) powerband where it should be for an automatic car. I also get poor fuel mileage, like 200 miles / per tank. A little bit of dataloging shows the spark advance sits firmly at 15 deg (unless letting off the throttle of course, were it hits 39 or so). While driving around for the past few thousand miles with the 3.0, I have witnessed a few times, where under hard acceleration, it suddenly pulls very hard, but only for a second or so. I imagine the timing finally advances some, but I haven't been able to catch this on a data log yet.

It has brand new EV6 fuel injectors, The bright purple Ford racing ones. The injectors that came with the 3.0 were garbage, as I found out when it ran like crap in the first start.

I used carb cleaner to check for vacuum leaks before and after replacing the fuel injectors, and found none.

I bought a new IAT sensor, as the one I had was a little dirty, and old - No change.

The MAF seems to be reading as expected.

I plan to do these things once I have my tuning goodies in hand:
- Datalog a couple more times to get a good "Before" data set.
- Read the tune from the ECU with the quarterhorse.
- Flash the factory tune back to the ECU with the xcal3
- Read the factory tune from the ECU with the quarterhorse
- Compare the two tunes to learn what NPG did. - Take lots of notes.
- Make the adjustment to displacement.
- Write the tune to the quarterhorse
- Cross my fingers
- If the car runs, datalog
- Compare datalogs
- Rinse and repeat

Once I dig into this Binary Editor stuff, I hope I can change a couple of values to at least make it proper, as a first starting point. Does this seem like a reasonable approach to the issue, or am I hunting butterflies with a 30-06?

P.S this will be my first attempt at tuning. Now that I think about it, I hope this setup works on my car! :help:
 
Can't offer you any advice but I will be doing something similar in not too long with the PRP. Interested to hear about your experience!
 
On cold start the AFR should read rich as things come up to temp. At idle it is normal for the AFR to bounce back and forther.

Are you hearing pinging at idle or under load when cold outside?
 
Very nice, PRP is in my cars future. I love the tune I have from Brenspeed but I have been tuning my own cars for a long time now and hate that I can't see exactly what is going on. Out of curiosity, if you already have an Xcal3 why not just go with the PRP from SCT?
 
Can't offer you any advice but I will be doing something similar in not too long with the PRP. Interested to hear about your experience!
I'll definitely rant/rave about the experience. It seems like the Binary Editor thing is relatively unfamiliar territory around CEG.

On cold start the AFR should read rich as things come up to temp. At idle it is normal for the AFR to bounce back and forther.
Right, It seems odd that it's that lean when cold. I'd expect it to be leaner than the 2.5 when cold, but not like this.

Are you hearing pinging at idle or under load when cold outside?
At idle. I won't drive it like this. I tried once and it happens under load too, hesitates and bucks, runs off the scale lean.

Very nice, PRP is in my cars future. I love the tune I have from Brenspeed but I have been tuning my own cars for a long time now and hate that I can't see exactly what is going on. Out of curiosity, if you already have an Xcal3 why not just go with the PRP from SCT?
I see more value with the ~$400 I spent for Binary Editor W/Dongle (so I can run it on more than one computer) EEC Analyzer, and the Quarter horse. I'm not licensed for just one PCM, and my hardware is not locked to my PCM. I plan to get the mongoose USB-OBDII cable that will allow me to flash the ECU directly. Once I have that, I can dial my tune in with the quarterhorse, then remove it, and flash that tune to the ECU. Freeing up the quarterhorse for use on my other car. Where I can repeat the same.

Fun Fact: The mongoose cable will also reprogram PATS keys. Seems handy :cool:
 
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UPS lost the package with my Quarterhorse and goodies :blackeye:

I'm really bummed now. The last time this happened, the company I was buying from (not the same company as this shipment) was absolutely no help, and I ended up having to pay more just to get *some* of what I originally purchased. :nonono:
 
The BE / Quarterhorse combo is an excellent choice. I'm sure you'll be happy with it once you get a feel for the layout of the software. I've seen it used first hand to cars and one of my old cars was actually one of the first to test out direct flashing on. :)

FWIW I saw the changes that NPG made and they were a joke. I don't think I have the log file any more but the changes the made didn't make much sense, basically a band-aid fix so the car would run ok. Probably the main reason it had no guts until it was properly retuned. I wouldn't even bother using it as a starting point or a "baseline".

I've got a Mongoose cable I picked up with the intention of using for direct flashing but I have a good friend who does all my tuning so consequently it hasn't been used hardly at all. I was toying with selling it so if you do decide to grab one shoot me a PM. You are correct about flashing PATS keys but to do so requires a Ford technical services subscription. IIRC it's like $35 for a 3-day pass or you can buy a subscription for a month.

Is this a port-matched swap or a full 3L? It sounds like you're running a port-matched swap with a deleted IMRC. Is that right?
 
I finally got my package from UPS!:cool:

The BE / Quarterhorse combo is an excellent choice. I'm sure you'll be happy with it once you get a feel for the layout of the software. I've seen it used first hand to cars and one of my old cars was actually one of the first to test out direct flashing on.

99Mystique, Have you used BE on a 'tour? I'm a little confused now, any help would be appreciated. The guys on EECTuning.org are very EEC-IV/Mustang specific.

FWIW I saw the changes that NPG made and they were a joke. I don't think I have the log file any more but the changes the made didn't make much sense, basically a band-aid fix so the car would run ok. Probably the main reason it had no guts until it was properly retuned. I wouldn't even bother using it as a starting point or a "baseline".

I was planning to compare the NPG tune against the stock tune to understand how the IMRC and downstream O2s were deleted. It seems there is a little finesse involved to do that stuff right.

I've got a Mongoose cable I picked up with the intention of using for direct flashing but I have a good friend who does all my tuning so consequently it hasn't been used hardly at all. I was toying with selling it so if you do decide to grab one shoot me a PM. You are correct about flashing PATS keys but to do so requires a Ford technical services subscription. IIRC it's like $35 for a 3-day pass or you can buy a subscription for a month.

If I can prove BE to be useful, I may PM you for the mongoose. I'm aware of the ford module programming subscription. I'd like to have it for my SVT since I've lost the coded keys while it's been in storage I know it's cheaper to have the keys made at the dealer at $250 vs $500 for the mongoose, but I like the idea that I can do it for anyone else for a $15 key from the internet, and $25 ford subscription. Not really looking for return on investment. I just like to be able to do stuff for myself.

Is this a port-matched swap or a full 3L? It sounds like you're running a port-matched swap with a deleted IMRC. Is that right?

Yeah, long story... Short story is, I got sick of repairing the failed IMRC box.:rolleyes:



Anyway, I'm trying to get into a position to tune with this stuff, and I have yet to hear back from anyone about providing me with a strategy file for KBAN7. I've investigated the idea of building a strategy file myself. I can figure out how to read the assemby once I can disasseble a binary, but first, I need an unencrypted binary!
I already pulled the NPG binary, and found it was encrypted. So the idea of comparing that bin to the stock one goes out the window. So, I flashed back to stock tune with the Xcal3. I then tried to pull that binary with the QuarterHorse for use as the baseline. The problem I have is that the stock binary is also encrypted... I'm not sure if I'm reading the binary right or if it's possible that the Xcal3 would keep the stock tune encrypted until I "unlock" the Xcal3? Maybe all EEC-V stuff is always encrypted (google results seem to imply this)?

Once I get my hands on a definition file (KBAN7) that I can use with BE, and an unencrypted bin, I'll be off to the races. I think. Currently I'd say that BE is not a reccomended path for the 2000 MY. I'm having to get my hands dirt with all kinds of stuff, which I actually like to do, which is why I went this route. I still do not yet regret chosing BE over PRP.
 
99Mystique, Have you used BE on a 'tour? I'm a little confused now, any help would be appreciated. The guys on EECTuning.org are very EEC-IV/Mustang specific.

My tuner did most of the work but I've seen the software and am familiar with the SCT PRP. I may be able to help if you have questions.

I was planning to compare the NPG tune against the stock tune to understand how the IMRC and downstream O2s were deleted. It seems there is a little finesse involved to do that stuff right.

Sounds like a good plan, there's not a whole lot to it (not as much as most people make it out to be) but there are a few steps to getting this done.

If I can prove BE to be useful, I may PM you for the mongoose. I'm aware of the ford module programming subscription. I'd like to have it for my SVT since I've lost the coded keys while it's been in storage I know it's cheaper to have the keys made at the dealer at $250 vs $500 for the mongoose, but I like the idea that I can do it for anyone else for a $15 key from the internet, and $25 ford subscription. Not really looking for return on investment. I just like to be able to do stuff for myself.

Sounds good, just lmk if you are interested.

Yeah, long story... Short story is, I got sick of repairing the failed IMRC box.:rolleyes:

Anyway, I'm trying to get into a position to tune with this stuff, and I have yet to hear back from anyone about providing me with a strategy file for KBAN7. I've investigated the idea of building a strategy file myself. I can figure out how to read the assemby once I can disasseble a binary, but first, I need an unencrypted binary!
I already pulled the NPG binary, and found it was encrypted. So the idea of comparing that bin to the stock one goes out the window. So, I flashed back to stock tune with the Xcal3. I then tried to pull that binary with the QuarterHorse for use as the baseline. The problem I have is that the stock binary is also encrypted... I'm not sure if I'm reading the binary right or if it's possible that the Xcal3 would keep the stock tune encrypted until I "unlock" the Xcal3? Maybe all EEC-V stuff is always encrypted (google results seem to imply this)?

Once I get my hands on a definition file (KBAN7) that I can use with BE, and an unencrypted bin, I'll be off to the races. I think. Currently I'd say that BE is not a reccomended path for the 2000 MY. I'm having to get my hands dirt with all kinds of stuff, which I actually like to do, which is why I went this route. I still do not yet regret chosing BE over PRP.

I'm not sure if they do have the definitions done for KBAN7 or not. I guess I thought they were but I could be wrong. What is the PCM code on your car? I would agree that the stock binary is more than likely encrypted and I doubt unlocking the xcal would change that.

12345
 
PCM code is CGB1. I was apparently pulling the binary wrong. One of the guys on eectuning.org pointed me in the right direction.

Popsracing.com has a definition, but apearently it doesn't data log when used with the QuarterHorse. I'll need the mongoose to data log, and flash the PCM directly. Bummer, I was looking forward to using the QH.
 
Ah, yea I'm not sure what is supported with the QH. Mine was tuned using a mongoose cable and was direct flashed. Maybe that's part of the reason why.

Sounds like you're making progress on it though. I'm not sure what the mongoose cables go for now but if you're interested in mine feel free to shoot me a PM and I'm sure we could work something out.
 
I just wanted to give a bit of an update to my adventures with Binary Editor so far...

I have had to reach out to the developer, Clint, quit a bit to get things going. We still have not yet got it to work quite right.

The Quarterhorse has issues with my ECU. It cannot read out the factory tune, nor will the car run off of the QH when a proper tune is written to it. I need to check to see if my J3 port is disabled. If it is, I should be able to jumper a couple of pads on the ECU board to enable it. If that's the case, I'll update this thread this weekend with pictures.

Thanks to @99Mystique, I have the J2534 (Drew Tech. Mongoose) cable now :cool:, and that seems to work great in the absense of the QH. This is Not as good as the QH, but it gets the job done. It cost me an extra $100 to be able to use it with BE though. Each peice of tuning hardware is licensed seperately, the J2534 cable is the most expensive at $100. most (all?) others, like moates, are only $20.

Clint actually spent a few hours with me this evening and showed me some cool stuff that BE can do. Since he was remote controlling my computer, he was able to see the trouble I was having for himself, and he was able to deal with some of the issues on the fly. He found a bug in the software, and a problem with the strategy file I paid for ($200). I can not yet tune because of the issue with the strategy file. He plans to get with the strategy file developer and sort things out tomorrow, and we will resume troubleshooting this weekend.

I am excited to have another tuning platform available for the Contour! I hope I can get the QH working, because it would certainly be the best tuning option available.

I can't help but make note of how helpfull Clint is, and the guys at Moates.net. These people really do provide awesome service. And fast too. Absolutely top notch customer service from Clint, and Moates.

One more thing to make note of. the J2534 cable can only pull encrypted binaries over OBDII. And the NPG tune, if I understand correctly, is unusable. I'll have to start from scratch on my own tune. I think I may be able to extract the NPG tune if I get the QH working but I'm not sure about that.

I have a lot to learn, and I'm looking foward to it. :cool:
 
So, Clint (the Binary Editor Developer) was able to get me all setup today. My car now runs on the Quarterhorse, and is fully tune-able!

Two things don't work quite right:
First, reading out the tune that is currently written to the PCM. No big deal, the database that contains the strategy file has the factory binaries included. Not only that, But it also has the updates that ford released for that PCM. I was able to upgrade from my CGB1 catch-code to CGB3, then apply all my changes (injectors, O2 delete, IMRC delete, etc.) to that factory update. :cool: (I used the mongoose cable to read out the encrypted tune from NPG)

Second, data logging via the quarterhorse doesn't quite work yet, but this may be available via a software update. With BE, there is a web utility that updates the main BE program, the strategy files, and the database. So if the creator of the database makes further progress with hacking the PCM, the changes are made available to all who are licensed for it.

In order to get everything working the way I wanted, We had to take advantage of the Mongoose cable, and the QH together. I now datalog via the Mongoose, and tune via the QH. I could also datalog via the Xcal3, and feed that log file into EECAnalyzer to make use of that awesomeness. I will probably use the Xcal3 for datalogging for now because it will record my wideband(s). If I want to use the wideband data with Binary editor, I need a DataQ to hook the wideband up to.

Anywho, It works! :)

I was able to make the quick dispacement adjustment to my tune, and write it to the quarterhorse. My car now fires up nice on cold start, with no rough idle for those first 10-30 seconds! Timing is still flat at 15deg while under load, but I think that will clear up once the adaptive strategy takes over. Then I can just move the "adapted" values to the permanent base values, and have a nice factory style tune (no optimized timing/fuel).

It wasn't cheap, but it all seemed to work out.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that I had to Solder some jumpers on the PCM board to make the QH work. If anyone is interested, I can post pics, and write a quick how-to, although it's already documented here: http://eectuning.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=79126
 
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More update:
On a cold start this morning (around 50Def F if I had to guess?), The car did fire up fairly rough, but only for a couple of combustion cycles. It righted itself very quickly, like.. within a second or so. Runs well though, minus spark being locked down at 15deg under load.

I'm going to wait until the PCM has had a chance to learn, and see what it is changing. With the 2.5L tune, the drivability definitely changed once the PCM had adapted.
 
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