Contour Enthusiasts Group Archives Forums Modifications Zetec Performance svt zetec contour???

Originally posted by SleeperZ:

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Why a SVT engine, why a SC?
Go turbo on a stock Zetec, it will be cheaper, less work, and net more power.
With the left over money, you can work on traction and handling, and make the car really fun to drive.

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What he said!

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:

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Don't forget about the tranny.

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Originally posted by ZetecRacing:

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Originally posted by Kremithefrog:

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Don't forget about the tranny.

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he has a MTX all he needs is an LSD and wouldn't need to worry about anything else.

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And yet I see mtx owners doing much more than a LSD all the time,, I recently saw warmonger talking about his tranny and future work it may need.... oo but I'm probably wrong.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:

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Originally posted by ZetecRacing:

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Originally posted by Kremithefrog:

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Don't forget about the tranny.

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he has a MTX all he needs is an LSD and wouldn't need to worry about anything else.

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And yet I see mtx owners doing much more than a LSD all the time,, I recently saw warmonger talking about his tranny and future work it may need.... oo but I'm probably wrong.

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Originally posted by ZetecRacing:

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Originally posted by Kremithefrog:

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Originally posted by ZetecRacing:

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Originally posted by Kremithefrog:

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Don't forget about the tranny.

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he has a MTX all he needs is an LSD and wouldn't need to worry about anything else.

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And yet I see mtx owners doing much more than a LSD all the time,, I recently saw warmonger talking about his tranny and future work it may need.... oo but I'm probably wrong.

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but for 300hp lsd is all that is needed

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Originally posted by Seawulf:

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The only reason to get a SVT Focus engine is for bragging rights. Yes, a SVT Focus engine will do 40 more HP than a stock Zetec, but it will not hold any more boost than a stock block Zetec. While the SVT is overall a better engine, the higher compression makes anykind of FI less than ideal and you will not gain any significant HP over a stock Zetec. For the cost of a new SVT engine you can buy a used stock zetec and make the bottom end bullit proof with forged internals, and still have a few bucks left over.

Now for the whole Superchargers vs Turbo's thing. The only thing a supercharger will give you over a turbo is easier CARB compliance as no exhaust components need to be touched to install one. A supercharger, will give you NO TORQUE compared to a turbo at the same boost. A supercharger also has MORE LAG, than the ONLY turbo kit for the SVT Zetec, Focus-power.com's kit. It costs more than any supercharger, but it's the only proven turbo kit for the zetec out there.

Here's a link to a similar discussion in the Cougar forums. A guy sold his Cougar and bought a SVT Focus and wanted some opinions on how to FI his SVT. http://www.fastcougar.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=63&threadid=91001

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Ummmmm the SVT Focus Zetec has stronger internals.....read up.

As for the whole S/C vs. T/C saying a S/C has more lag compared to a T/C is just plain dumb. T/C will always have some kind of lag.....when a S/C is "crank" driven meaning AS SOON AS you step on the gas you are creating boost.....granted nowadays you can get small, quick spooling, ball bearing turbos it still has a little lag...

Originally posted by fasti4contour:

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First there is no lag on a s/c. When the throtle hits the floor it's full boost.(crank driven). Turbos are exhaust gas driven which is why they take time to spool up they need the fast flowing gases to spin the turbo to make the boost.One more thing the s/c freewheels at idle and crusing speeds to be more efficient.I know I 've already said it but here it is again s/c have NO lag turbos DO. Here is the other thing s/c work with higher compression engines wheras turbos need lower compression which would mean I would have to change the pistons in order to achieve a lower compression ratio in my engine.

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Originally posted by Seawulf:

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But you didn't have the benefit of my expertise then.

And I believe the term you were looking for is "boost threshold". It's mentioned in the link I posted.

P.S. Your in Ontario? Aren't insurance rates sky high there, especially if you got mods? I hear they're denying coverage after the fact even if all you got is lowering springs. Or is that a different part of Canada?

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Wait....didn't you blow your engine?

Originally posted by Cris'pus:

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www.car-part.com

Dozens of SVT contour engines

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Quote:

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Also a SC, because it's tied to the crank, is a parasitic drag on the engine

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Originally posted by Kremithefrog:

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INCORRECT. Because the S/C is crank driven it will not reach full boost until a certain RPM,, you don't just sit a supercharge on the intake and expect it to instantly make boost. Ask anyone with a supercharger (plenty of duratec owners on here) I believe the vortech for the duratec doesn't reach full boost until over 3k rpm. You can easily setup a turbo to reach full boost at the same place a s/c does or before. Not all turbos have lag, they have something else, can't remember what it's called, which is the point before they reach full boost but it is NOT LAG. A small turbo with a good setup will not have any lag. And as low compression is good for s/c AND turbo. High compression is good for n/a and nitrous... Why is this even being discussed,, you're not even gonna do it anyways.

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Actually a S/C has it's turbine spinning all the time in sync with the engine, cutting the lag time way way down. You are right about the super charger not reaching full boost until a certain RPM because of the rate of speed of the pulleys, but the same applies for a turbo. Since the turbo turbine is spun by exhaust gasses, you will also need to reach a certain RPM, or a certain amount of exhaust pressure to spin the turbine to achieve full boost. Any turbo setup will have more lag than a S/C just for the fact that it's not constantly spinning like a S/C. Unless you weld your exhaust exit(s) closed, which I wouldnt recommend.

Thanks for attending class, you've just been schooled

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:

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So at idle you're saying the turbo just stops spinning? And again, a small turbo setup is easy to build with NO LAG. And remember, a turbo has way more torque on a zetec than a s/c,,, so....... you've just been schooled.




And what happens on a small 4cyl street car is quite different than a V8. So although your supercharger on your truck may be good for it, a s/c on a zetec isn't a great idea. And even on your truck you can get more power a turbo, but if you don't want power, than that's fine, I was under the impression that this guy wanted power. Yes you can set it up so a s/c zetec is faster than a lotta turbo zetecs, but at the expense that it most likely won't be streetable.

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Who'de you school Fool?
I understand all that, but your post above wasn't 100% accurate. I'm not starting a battle Kremit, I've already won the war

But in all seriousness, I agree about the Torque, theres no doubt in my mind. You've got many more options with a turbo than a S/C also.

I never said it stopped spinning, just doesnt spin as fast as a S/C at idle, hence....LAG.

Second Period just let out.

Originally posted by Cris'pus:

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How about instead of arguing and making him reconsider doing ANYTHING.....

All those in favour of fasti4 of doing anything to his contour to make it one of the fastest Zetec Contour say Aye!

Aye

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Who's arguing, thats just Kremit and I's way of saying add a turbo to your super charged Contour!

Oh yeah, and AYE

Originally posted by Cris'pus:

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How about instead of arguing and making him reconsider doing ANYTHING.....

All those in favour of fasti4 of doing anything to his contour to make it one of the fastest Zetec Contour say Aye!

Aye

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AYE!!

Originally posted by bk4293:

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Originally posted by Kremithefrog:

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So at idle you're saying the turbo just stops spinning? And again, a small turbo setup is easy to build with NO LAG. And remember, a turbo has way more torque on a zetec than a s/c,,, so....... you've just been schooled.




And what happens on a small 4cyl street car is quite different than a V8. So although your supercharger on your truck may be good for it, a s/c on a zetec isn't a great idea. And even on your truck you can get more power a turbo, but if you don't want power, than that's fine, I was under the impression that this guy wanted power. Yes you can set it up so a s/c zetec is faster than a lotta turbo zetecs, but at the expense that it most likely won't be streetable.

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Who'de you school Fool?
I understand all that, but your post above wasn't 100% accurate. I'm not starting a battle Kremit, I've already won the war

But in all seriousness, I agree about the Torque, theres no doubt in my mind. You've got many more options with a turbo than a S/C also.

I never said it stopped spinning, just doesnt spin as fast as a S/C at idle, hence....LAG.

Second Period just let out.

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No I won the war before the fighting even started.
Do some research, not all turbo systems have LAG, quit saying they do. Quit using the wrong term. I believe seawulf said it was boost threshold... but anyways, a supercharger doesn't reach full boost until a certain RPM either, same with turbo. And then once the s/c does reach full boost it has parasitic drag, another not so great thing for big power.......... but if you think weren't you're saying is true, then if you ever get the money, go with a s/c for your zetec. Remedial classes just let out (or just begun).

Quote:

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Do some research, not all turbo systems have LAG, quit saying they do. Quit using the wrong term. I believe seawulf said it was boost threshold... but anyways, a supercharger doesn't reach full boost until a certain RPM either, same with turbo. And then once the s/c does reach full boost it has parasitic drag, another not so great thing for big power..........

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Quote:

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its not that superchargers suck on the zetec, its that the superchargers currently available for the zetec suck

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Exactly, they are made for top end power, not a broad, flatter torque curve. There are SCs made for that, but not for the Contour.

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so by the logic in this thread, the duratec sucks for superchargers too?

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Not at all, its a great platform for SC due to how well it can breathe, IMO.

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its not the engine that sucks for superchargers, its the sh!tty superchargers being put on them!!!

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Hit the nail on the head. Although I would be happy with a SCed Duratec

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:

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Do some research, not all turbo systems have LAG, quit saying they do.


but anyways, a supercharger doesn't reach full boost until a certain RPM either, same with turbo.

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Hmm listen to yourself kermit. You say not all turbos have lag then a sentence later you say they won't create boost till a certain rpm? That's lag my friend. Yes some cars are claimed anti-lag.. rally cars I know they say have anti-lag. The closest I think any street vehicle will get to anti-lag is in a diesel. My old 323GTX made 5psi@2700 or so and 7psi@3000 and held that to redline. A SR20DET powered 240sx I drove spooled up at 2500-2700. Now in my book that's pretty damn quick for a turbo car. Inless you get a turbo to make boost at idle you're always going to have some sort of lag. Lag is lag no matter when it spools 1500 or 3000rpms. I'll take a turbo over the S/C, so what if I have to wait a second or 2 for the fun to start.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:

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a s/c never really reaches true full boost,,,

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You have got to be kidding me...... A blower gives boost depending on how fast you have it set to turn, thats why different size pulleys are used. Smaller pully=SC turning faster=more boost.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:

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and as I said, a turbo is also always spinning though not always boosting, but reaches full boost much sooner than a s/c ,,,

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Its all in the design.

I have 2 mechanics here right now laughing at this post, total experience in building performance V8s is about 30 years. Guess you know more than they do. I had to tell them to see this post cause I knew they would get a kick out of it. I guess my experience building 2 SC motors are a mute point here, too

Get this straignt- An engine can have equal output whether SCed or turbo charged..ITS ALL IN THE DESIGN.

All hail the boost god.............Kremit

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A home built turbo kit is going to be THE most cost effective way to make good power. But it's very easy to screw it up. Due to the stresses and heat invovled, not to mention the fact you have another independent heat engine operating (or two!) under the hood, there's just more to think about.


However, when you do it right, they work great. Just look at Porsche. They engineer them right, and the system is just as reliable as a NA engine.


quote:
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My other thought is for power adders on the track, the big teams (Audi, Porshe, etc)seem to have good results with them vs SC's (and other than the Steeda car, I haven't seen a centrifugal out there).
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SC's just can't compete, plain and simple. They are drawing power off the crank to power the compressor, and the turbo uses waste heat. Not to mention boost control.


I've often said, superchargers would be great if you could take a centrifical blower, gear it up to make boost early, but then have a CVT transmission to slow it down at higher revs, the idea being to tailor the compressor speed to provide the right amount of boost early, and hold that boost until redline.


The fact is, turbos do that already, with a much more simple system, and again, you can't ignore the fact that they are using waste exhaust heat instead of crankshaft power.


Roots blowers are horribly inefficient. Centrificals have peaky power delivery. Nothing down low, then too much up top.


A proper turbo should be able to supply full boost below the torque peak, and hold it steady all the way to redline. If you're really smart, you can have an intelligent controller that varies boost with rpm, and can give you an absolutely flat torque curve. Hit a healthy boost at max torque, and push harder as you move past the volumetric efficiency peak of the engine.


What's funny is, 90% of the supercharger fans I see on the Focus boards ONLY do it for the "golly gee whiz" factor of having "that cool blower whine", or because they saw it in Mad Max or some stupid [censored] like that.

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Originally posted by CRZYDRVR:

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Originally posted by Kremithefrog:

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a s/c never really reaches true full boost,,,

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You have got to be kidding me...... A blower gives boost depending on how fast you have it set to turn, thats why different size pulleys are used. Smaller pully=SC turning faster=more boost.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:

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and as I said, a turbo is also always spinning though not always boosting, but reaches full boost much sooner than a s/c ,,,

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Its all in the design.

I have 2 mechanics here right now laughing at this post, total experience in building performance V8s is about 30 years. Guess you know more than they do. I had to tell them to see this post cause I knew they would get a kick out of it. I guess my experience building 2 SC motors are a mute point here, too

Get this straignt- An engine can have equal output whether SCed or turbo charged..ITS ALL IN THE DESIGN.

All hail the boost god.............Kremit

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Tell me about it.....it is all about design....S/C can compete with T/C....all depends on car/engine/etc....Zetec S/Cs just don't make more torque....I'd still take one....at least it wouldn't mess up my ATX.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:

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Obviously many of ya'll don't understand s/c and turbos,,, thinkmoto and this thread starter included... As seawulf said a s/c never really reaches true full boost,,, and as I said, a turbo is also always spinning though not always boosting, but reaches full boost much sooner than a s/c ,,, but since ya'll can't do any research and can't get it through your heads what I'm saying, then go ahead use a supercharger and CLAIM how much better it is than a turbo....... afterall it's your money.


And thinkmoto turbo lag is not defined as the period of RPM where you don't have boost... but you probably can't understand that... we've already seen how smart you are.

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Originally posted by Thinkmoto:

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Well considering you like to quote people so much kramit. Here is a direct quote from how it works TURBOs

Turbo Lag
One of the main problems with turbochargers is that they do not provide an immediate power boost when you step on the gas. It takes a second for the turbine to get up to speed before boost is produced. This results in a feeling of lag when you step on the gas, and then the car lunges ahead when the turbo gets moving.

One way to decrease turbo lag is to reduce the inertia of the rotating parts, mainly by reducing their weight. This allows the turbine and compressor to accelerate quickly, and start providing boost earlier.

So my proir statement is still all so wrong according to you huh

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Thank you......Kremit, you have been schooled....don't make me go scan some books.

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Ok, as for the drivability of turbos...

It shouldn't be a problem if you pick the right turbos, and don't get stupid with the sizing and boost. Most turbo setups are developed with drag racing in mind, and that camp falls for the "bigger is better" [censored] all the time. They choose huge turbos, decrompress the motor, and use tons of boost. The turbos take a week to spool up, and kick you in the ass when they do.


My method of picking a turbo:



Choose your target horsepower.
Choose the smallest turbo that will get you there.



Most drag race guys complain that "you'll want more power later" "Boost is addictive, you'll want more", etc... They choose big [censored] turbos that could power a Kenworth, and then drive it with a tiny engine, with no response, and brag about how much power they COULD be making if they turned up the boost and ran rocket fuel.

Just set your goals, and pick the smallest turbo that will get you there. You'll have the best response and drivability that way.

With properly sized turbos, they work great on track. You should be well above the "boost threshold" in any corner. As such, boost comes on almost instantaneously, and linearly with the throttle. Where you get into trouble is with a massive turbo that doesn't spool until 5000rpm. You come out of a corner at 4000, get on it, then halfway down the straight the boost hits like a freight train. This is another thing that has led to false ideas about turbos. You often hear superchargers guys say they don't like turbolag... Again, this is caused by these guys who use turbos that are too big.

Another thing is throttle bdoies. Most of these drag race guys run these huge barn door throttles, that flow 1000hp with only 10* of opening angle. I've seen guys put these on stock engines, and then brag about how cool it is that they have a hard time not hitting the person in front of them in traffic because the throttle is so touchy. Then you combine that thing with a turbo.... the boost is like a light switch.

On mine, I can get full boost by 2400rpm. On track, I'm rarely below 4000rpm. At 4000, I've got enough exhaust gas that it can accelerate the turbo in 0.2 seconds. So, as you roll onto the throttle coming out of an apex, the boost is linear and instantaneous. Feels just like a naturally aspirated motor. Ok, almost. There is a *slight* "squishiness" to the throttle. But it's very easy to work with.

In my opinion, a good target is to double the power of the motor, with 10-15 psi. Beyond that, you're going to have to decompress the motor, and that's when you start getting into drivability problems. A low comperssion motor with no boost is a dog, and then the boost hits hard. A high compression motor will have more power when off boost, and the change in power output as boost comes isn't as abrupt.

I'm running the stock TB on mine, and refuse to change it. I'm sure I'm losing a couple peak horsepower, but I get much better throttle control. Since the air from a turbo is compressed, you don't need such a big throttle to flow the horsepower. Smaller throttles make it easier to control the power at lower rpms, and if you want a little more power up top, just blow on it a little harder... I'd bet half a psi would give you just as much top end power increase as going from a 55 to a 65mm TB.

Anyway, that's enough for now. Any questions?

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Quote:

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The Whipple Twin Screw Supercharger-
Incredibly high adiabatic and volumetric efficiencies
Positive displacement design
Very flat efficiency curve combined with positive displacement design gives the most achievable torque of any method
Instant boost
A true compressor
Direct drive from the crankshaft
Compact and lightweight design
Virtually silent operation
Low temperature increases during operation
Very little power consumption
Unique combination of low rpm torque and high rpm horsepower due to the screw compressor design
Have the ability to run from 1 to 60 lbs. of boost

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So much for SC being inefficient, or not having instant boost. Properly setup, one of these will have INSTANT boost OFF IDLE and low to mid RPM all the way to redline. Which is where most of our cars spend their time at in traffic and everyday driving. I dont think any of us keep our motors at redline all the time. I have not heard of any turbo system that make boost of idle, there is always some lag. If anyone has a link to one, I would love to see it, not just some guys opinion. Im always willing to learn something

Originally posted by Seawulf:

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Ok, ONE. It's still off the crank, and it's still a PARASITIC DRAG. Now show me a dynochart of a whiple on a I4 engine.

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Listen to what your saying....
You can turn the screws on a SC with your HAND. How much PARASITIC DRAG do you think that is? 2hp? 5hp at the MOST? And you get HOW MUCH in return?? Lets see, more power than stock and NO LAG??? Not to mention not having to plumb in an intercooler?
Read my first post about what I think about PARASITIC DRAG

Like I said before, all those drag cars that they worry about every little HP and pound of weight dont seem to mind all this parisitic drag, why is it even a point? Go ask the guys with the '03 Cobras how their car even runs with all that DRAG.......

If your whining about parasitic drag, then you must be running out of things to gripe about.
Your alternator is off the crank, you should take that off cause its a parasitic drag too.

My whole point is to shut up those of you that think a SC isnt as good or better than a turbo. Deal with it.

Originally posted by CRZYDRVR:

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Originally posted by Kremithefrog:

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a s/c never really reaches true full boost,,,

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You have got to be kidding me...... A blower gives boost depending on how fast you have it set to turn, thats why different size pulleys are used. Smaller pully=SC turning faster=more boost.


Really I didn't know that. Still not full boost.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:

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and as I said, a turbo is also always spinning though not always boosting, but reaches full boost much sooner than a s/c ,,,

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Its all in the design.

I have 2 mechanics here right now laughing at this post, total experience in building performance V8s is about 30 years. Guess you know more than they do. I had to tell them to see this post cause I knew they would get a kick out of it. I guess my experience building 2 SC motors are a mute point here, too

Get this straignt- An engine can have equal output whether SCed or turbo charged..ITS ALL IN THE DESIGN.


Wow, that's same great info. So they have experience with V8s, what were we discussing here? Umm 4cyls,, wow how relevant. No **** an engine can have equal output, but I GUARANTEE, the engine in discussion is more able to use HIGH power made by a GOOD turbo design than a GOOD supercharger design.

But since you're so great at this stuff, I wish we could get someone to fund a little project for us, to see who can get the most power outta a zetec, you with a supercharger, me with a turbo....

All hail the boost god.............Kremit
Darn tootin'

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Originally posted by Thinkmoto:

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Originally posted by Kremithefrog:

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Obviously many of ya'll don't understand s/c and turbos,,, thinkmoto and this thread starter included... As seawulf said a s/c never really reaches true full boost,,, and as I said, a turbo is also always spinning though not always boosting, but reaches full boost much sooner than a s/c ,,, but since ya'll can't do any research and can't get it through your heads what I'm saying, then go ahead use a supercharger and CLAIM how much better it is than a turbo....... afterall it's your money.


And thinkmoto turbo lag is not defined as the period of RPM where you don't have boost... but you probably can't understand that... we've already seen how smart you are.

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kremit seriously now do you think anyone will listen to you and make a sound decision from what you say????

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No, but they should.
But, hey, ya'll should all go slap s/c's on zetecs, and I'll put a turbo on mine. Because of course SC's are soooooooo much better.