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Getting my forged internals installed (diamond pistons+pauter rods), and I needed to run some prices by you guys to see what sounds reasonable: $350 - Precision Engine Rebuilder (www.precisionengine.com) will disassemble and reassemble my short block, press new forged pistons and rods together, install new bearings, rings for pistons, etc. Then I asked about getting the engine rebalanced, and they said they can take that to someone else to get that done. Does that sound about right? I can't find ANYONE that even KNOWS what a duratec is, these were the only ones!! 
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And who is going to file the rings for you? Balance alone for me is $175. Assembly they were asking $525.
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file rings? never heard of that!
it cost me like $300 to have my engine balaned, and thats because they charged me for matching up the rod caps, when the 3L came it was in a crate, i just tore into it, didnt know i had to keep thing matched up! ive learned alot since then.
also, why not assemble the engine yourself, its pretty easy if you got a ford cd and the right tools
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if you knew my history with modding things on my car, assembling the engine would be a guaranteed failure. . .trust me.  Filing rings? They balance AFTER they assemble the short block, correct? So then, how do you drive it to another shop if the engine is "unbalanced"? ?? 
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no, you take them the rods, pistons, crank, piston rings, dampener, flywheel, bearings, the whole rotating assembly
they balance it like that so when the engine is built its already balanced
Russell
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Originally posted by ssmumich00:
1. Filing rings?
2. They balance AFTER they assemble the short block, correct? So then, how do you drive it to another shop if the engine is "unbalanced"?
1. The rings that come with the custom pistons require a file fit.
2. They would have to bring the "assembled" rotating assembly (including clutch, PP, and crank pulley) over to this other machine shop to have them balance it.
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Originally posted by DemonSVT:
Originally posted by ssmumich00:
1. Filing rings?
2. They balance AFTER they assemble the short block, correct? So then, how do you drive it to another shop if the engine is "unbalanced"?
1. The rings that come with the custom pistons require a file fit.
2. They would have to bring the "assembled" rotating assembly (including clutch, PP, and crank pulley) over to this other machine shop to have them balance it.
Turns out they charge an additional $125 to get it balanced. So, it sounds like around $500 including tax to get the whole 2.5L rebuilt. I hope I can sell my CSVT pistons and rods (which I KNOW are in great shape since I've had a DMD on forever) to recoup the lost money. . .ugh.
Thanks guys. . .
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Originally posted by DemonSVT:
Originally posted by ssmumich00:
1. Filing rings?
2. They balance AFTER they assemble the short block, correct? So then, how do you drive it to another shop if the engine is "unbalanced"?
1. The rings that come with the custom pistons require a file fit.
2. They would have to bring the "assembled" rotating assembly (including clutch, PP, and crank pulley) over to this other machine shop to have them balance it.
Most of the balance work I've ever had done they use only the crank, one piston/rod assembly including rings. Unless it's an externally balanced flywheel or damper, that's all they need, not even the block...
Also, make sure the top ring is on the loose side when they're file fit on it, otherwise the heat and pressure from the "hair dryer" will cause the top ring to expand to much for it's own good. That equals more money spent...
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Originally posted by bnoon:
Originally posted by DemonSVT:
Originally posted by ssmumich00:
1. Filing rings?
2. They balance AFTER they assemble the short block, correct? So then, how do you drive it to another shop if the engine is "unbalanced"?
1. The rings that come with the custom pistons require a file fit.
2. They would have to bring the "assembled" rotating assembly (including clutch, PP, and crank pulley) over to this other machine shop to have them balance it.
Most of the balance work I've ever had done they use only the crank, one piston/rod assembly including rings. Unless it's an externally balanced flywheel or damper, that's all they need, not even the block...
Also, make sure the top ring is on the loose side when they're file fit on it, otherwise the heat and pressure from the "hair dryer" will cause the top ring to expand to much for it's own good. That equals more money spent...
It has been many years since I had any balancing done, but matching the pistons for equal weight was the first part of the balancing project. Usually the rings were left alone since they felt that there would not be enough difference to worry about. But they did match the pistons and rods before actually assembling the pistons and rods together. The wrist pins were weighed with the pistons.
Jim Johnson
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Originally posted by Big Jim:
It has been many years since I had any balancing done, but matching the pistons for equal weight was the first part of the balancing project. Usually the rings were left alone since they felt that there would not be enough difference to worry about. But they did match the pistons and rods before actually assembling the pistons and rods together. The wrist pins were weighed with the pistons.
True, they did ask if the pistons and rods were matched to (within a fraction of a gram) each other, which mine were. All I had to do was bring one rod/piston assembly, they weighed it, mounted the bare crank in their machine, spun it, and the machine told them how much and were to take the weight off of (or put in mallory weight to) the crank.
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do I have to tell the shop all this, or should they be competent enough to figure this out on their own?
I will tell them I'm boosting it so they can leave a little slack on the top ring when they file it on. . .I'm just afraid that I'll get this done, everything will be fine, then I make the trek over to Arizona this summer, dyno the hell out of her, and BOOOOOOM, right at 14psi it all goes to hell (I'm assuming 14psi would be safe to run with forged rings and rods. . .)
Suneil
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14 psi on what turbo though???
It is not the psi level but the airflow at said psi level. Just a psi rating means little to nothing without airflow numbers.
14psi on a T3 40 trim would barely get you moving but 14psi on a T66 would likely pop the stock head bolts...
Either way forged pistons & rods will easily support 14psi on a T3/4 60-1 trim and that would be my guess as to what you are running (if you are building a 3L too) Otherwise I'd guess it's a 54-1 with a 2.5L
Heck the stock rods are stronger the anyone believes and will take more abuse then the stock pistons and the revised pistons should support a max of 450 crank HP or so. (400+ is already a known given thanks to TOM)
For instance I think a full oval port 3L at ~9.7CR (~$1200 if you can do the labor) should do nicely and safely with a T3/4 60-1 trim and large turbine wheel at 8-10psi (330-360FWHP/TQ) 
That's already far beyond the level of power this platform can handle in the first few gears.
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The total seal rings have a chrome steel top ring which I was told by total seal to be safe at 15psi.
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Originally posted by DemonSVT:
14 psi on what turbo though???
It is not the psi level but the airflow at said psi level. Just a psi rating means little to nothing without airflow numbers.
14psi on a T3 40 trim would barely get you moving but 14psi on a T66 would likely pop the stock head bolts...
interesting point, and I think I might have a problem because I'm rebuilding my 2.5L and going with a t3/4 trim option through SF. . .so, I'm assuming that it should be a decently packaged upgrade since the t28 runs out of breath beyond 10psi, or so I've been told. . .
I guess I'm opting for the t3/4 upgrade because I want to push more air than the t28 is capable of, and that's what the logic was behind the forged rods (I could sustain higher air flow, more boost, on a larger turbo, without the deleterious risks associated with increasing combustion chamber temp's). . .as for the 3L upgrade, I didn't want to spend the extra $2k to get it done right, because NO ONE here is capable in that realm (nor am I!)
I'm rambling. . .but since this has become kind of a cool tech forum on upsizing turbo's on 2.5L engines, out of curiousity, how do you calculate the INEFFICIENT point where the heat from compression reduces power put to wheels. . .like in my case, with a 2.5L t3/t4, nothing beyond 15psi as Keyser said?
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dude, I hope the t-28 doesn't run out at 10 psi! If so I guess I'll be putting that on my mazda sooner than I thought 
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Originally posted by BStoneMega:
dude, I hope the t-28 doesn't run out at 10 psi! If so I guess I'll be putting that on my mazda sooner than I thought
That's very old and dyno tested news...
The T28 is already beyond it's efficiency range pushing 270-280FWHP. (~10 psi)
Even straight race fuel (to stop the super heated air from the compressor so far out of it's efficiency range from causing detonation) only managed about 290FWHP. (~12psi IIRC) You can see that race fuel and a few more psi netted next to no real gains. That is the "just pushing hot air" syndrome of being far beyond it's safe efficiency range.
The T28 is a "power under the curve" turbo. It's was sized and chosen to make a nice fat usable curve from 3000-6500rpm. SF picked out a great turbo for an "overall" package.
This is also why when certain "Cougar" turbo folks decided on their own to raise the boost they shelled their engine. They were not running high enough octane fuel to quell the detonation of the super heated intake charge since they moved the turbo well out of it's safe efficiency range.
Turbos are all designed to be run in a specific range of operations (via trim, A/R, housing size, even piping size) and it's cfm to psi relationship is also dependant on the size of the engine & it's volumetric efficiency. (to put it basically)
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Originally posted by ssmumich00:
..... I hope I can sell my CSVT pistons and rods (which I KNOW are in great shape since I've had a DMD on forever) to recoup the lost money. . .
Pardon my ignorance but how can you use used pistons ?? Isn't that like buying old shoes ? I mean, I know the tolerances on modern engines are pretty tight and that there is likely very little difference in cylinder diameter between cars but won't your pistons and cylinders have "worn" together and putting pistons from one engine into a different engine cause a problem ??
Or is that why we have piston rings ?? !!
TIA for educating an ignoramus.
Bless our servicemen & women overseas.
L.Cpl Ian Malone, 1st Battalion Irish Guards, R.I.P.
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My turbo of choice is .57 trim compressor with a .63 AR for the turbine housing. IIRC it pushes 49lbs per minute compared to the 31lbs from the T28.
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Originally posted by ssmumich00:
I'm rambling. . .but since this has become kind of a cool tech forum on upsizing turbo's on 2.5L engines, out of curiousity, how do you calculate the INEFFICIENT point where the heat from compression reduces power put to wheels. . .like in my case, with a 2.5L t3/t4, nothing beyond 15psi as Keyser said?
Well that all depends of your power goals, shape of the curve you want and how fast you want to get to maximum boost.
It is easy to plot a specific engine combination on a compressor map and see where your desired boost level (per rpm) puts you in it's efficiency range.
Depending on the factors I listed in my previous post certain turbo's offer more surge area (needed running a T3/4 on a 2.5L), faster spool up (really a moot point - see later), high boost capability, low boost efficiency, etc, etc...
You can play with trim and A/R sizing to get a proper medium.
For instance Tom is using a T3/4 60-1 trim (on his 3L, NOT 2.5L) with larger turbine wheel. (.83 A/R IIRC) He generates full boost around 3500rpm which is easily soon enough and has plenty of room to grow on the top end.
IMO the worst thing you could do is use a large compressor like a 60-1 trim and then castrate it with a small turbine wheel. (still talking 3L as the 60-1 is too "large" for a 2.5L - I.E. surge)
You end up with the worst of both combinations.
Poor low boost airflow, slightly sooner spool time (but in real world driving that's completely moot and you'll need a dual stage boost controller anyway because of traction), but then no top end airflow because the exhaust compressor is already over spinning because it is so damn small. Don't even think about high boost. (Serious heat air)
That leaves you with a turbo that under performs at both ends.
So what are you "goals"???
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Originally posted by Keyser:
My turbo of choice is .57 trim compressor with a .63 AR for the turbine housing. IIRC it pushes 49lbs per minute compared to the 31lbs from the T28.
Damn you posting between my soap box speeches.
I was getting there.
Yes the 57-1 has a very nice increased surge area.
The moderate A/R turbine will help the smaller 2.5L spool the compressor faster. Remember the 2.5L is ~20% smaller in volume then a 3L.  This directly relates to the amount of exhaust gasses "powering" the turbo.
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Demon, If the t-28 is most efficient at 2-6.5krpm than thats what I wanted anyways. No more 7600 rpm for me. Thanks!
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what turbo model would get 300-320 crank hp on a 2.5l and be very reliable as a daily driver (likely running a dual boost, lower boost for daily driving). this would be mated to an intercooler also. everyone says if your gonna open up the 2.5l for forged internals, u might as well 3l it first but that more money. i just would want to take the necessary steps to prevent blowing up the 2.5l. i wouldnt need 350-400hp for my daily driver.
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Originally posted by hmouta:
what turbo model would get 300-320 crank hp on a 2.5l and be very reliable as a daily driver
Gee. A T28 maybe...
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Originally posted by BStoneMega:
Demon, If the t-28 is most efficient at 2-6.5krpm than thats what I wanted anyways. No more 7600 rpm for me. Thanks!
However you wanted to run higher boost???
The T28 could make a little more boost below 5000rpm but it would rapidly bleed off as the rpm increased as it could not sustain it very well. Also you would be pushing considerably hotter air so the point of diminishing returns is already at hand.
Maybe "nicer" dyno queen numbers but pointless in real life.
With more boost down low you run across even more traction problems! You really want to run less boost down low (below 5k) and more boost up high (5-7k)
You are just not going to get any real traction in our platform.
The 270FWHP plateau is it's "real" limit and that's already stretching it's efficiency range.
Again I am not saying it's a bad turbo just stating it's range of operations. It is an excellent choice for an overall power curve. It is just small IMNSHO. (insert Tim Allen grunt here )
You also made it sound like you wanted more power then a T28 could deliver. (the comment about raising boost)
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I want to have a useable power range without killing the engine. If I have to baby it in the low rpm than so be it. I know I didn't like my setup with the supercharger and the lower final drive I have. So I'm hoping this t-28 will compensate for that down low loss of power. I guess I don't really care about pushing more than 10psi efficiently right now. But then I guess when you have a turbo that is capable of pushing over 10psi effiently than I wouldn't have all the instant boost that cause traction issues anyways.
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kinda. if the max is 10psi, i wouldnt feel comfortable running it at 9-10psi. so i'd prefer to run a model that can go a bit higher even though i wouldnt run it higher. like running a turbo that would put out 350 but use 300 of it, rather than maxing it out. if that makes sense.
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but how come my t-25 can run up to 15psi supposedly. I would figure the t-28 could go higher?
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Originally posted by BStoneMega:
but how come my t-25 can run up to 15psi supposedly. I would figure the t-28 could go higher?
You are not seeing the entire picture.
Boost level and cfm flow are engine size & volumetric efficiency dependant. (using the "exact" same turbo - otherwise that adds a lot more variables!)
Also like stated the many turbo variables change the turbo's efficiency range. For instance a 50-1 trim "likes" high boost (~2bar max) and a 57-1 moderate boost (~1.4bar max) and they both max about the safe cfm level even though the 57-1 wheel is technically larger.
Just using the compressor maps and not taking the particular engine into account; nor is it taking into account the added heat and turbo rpm, nor exhaust wheel, nor... You get the picture.
Read my other very basic posts about it...
Even google search - IIRC there is a Stealth site that explains a lot about turbo sizing with more detail. (I.E. no way in hell I'm typing out even a layman's guide to it  - my posts should be good enough to get the picture if you are going to get it easily)
Anyone who rates a turbo in "exact" cfm per psi or HP or whatever is not telling the whole story (I.E it's like marketing performance parts)
The T28 could probably support 15psi on the Zetec (2L vs 2.5L) thus giving you a 260FWHP Zetec... ZOOOOOOOM...
No I did not do "the math" it was just a "guesstimate" to be used as an example.
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ok, so a turbo will perform differently on every engine that it is put on even if the turbo is identical. So it could take some real hard core calculations and measurements to come up with a turbo that does exactly what you want in your paticular engine. Thats cool.
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Originally posted by Keyser:
My turbo of choice is .57 trim compressor with a .63 AR for the turbine housing. IIRC it pushes 49lbs per minute compared to the 31lbs from the T28.
What are you putting down now with the new t3/t4 in?
My goal is 350fwhp, and max boost at 3.5k or above is fine with me, like Demon said, lower gears and rev's are virtually useless with the numbers we're talking about here. . .
as a side note, it SUCKS having the superbowl in your city, everybody thinks everybody is a celebrity, some teeny bopper came up to me and asked for my autograph, apparently I look like that guy on 'THat 70's Show' (fez?). . .GO PATRIOTS!!!!
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Can I get your autograph too Fez???
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FES = Foreign Exchange Student
I haven't installed the larger turbo yet. I know it will make over 400 wheels, I'm just not postive how far. My guess is that staying in it's efficiency range it will do 425 wheels. Outside I might squeak another 20 out of it but it would be mostly hot air.
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I should change my screen name to fes now. . .
hehe!
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fez is a sexy bastard u are not..
hehehe!
-the original non contour owner-
an m3 or an sti?
thats like asking
"Miss USA or Hooter's waitress?"
05' Sti Silver/Silver
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Originally posted by Keyser:
FES = Foreign Exchange Student
I haven't installed the larger turbo yet. I know it will make over 400 wheels, I'm just not postive how far. My guess is that staying in it's efficiency range it will do 425 wheels. Outside I might squeak another 20 out of it but it would be mostly hot air.
Well hurry up with it! I'd like to know that 400 wHP is attainable on at 2.5L so I can comfortably make that on my 3L.
Make sure you take it nice and slow so if a rod goes it is from peak power and not from detonation!! That will be better information for us.
Tom
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,676
Hard-core CEG'er
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OP
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,676 |
Originally posted by warmonger:
Originally posted by Keyser:
FES = Foreign Exchange Student
I haven't installed the larger turbo yet. I know it will make over 400 wheels, I'm just not postive how far. My guess is that staying in it's efficiency range it will do 425 wheels. Outside I might squeak another 20 out of it but it would be mostly hot air.
Well hurry up with it! I'd like to know that 400 wHP is attainable on at 2.5L so I can comfortably make that on my 3L.
Make sure you take it nice and slow so if a rod goes it is from peak power and not from detonation!! That will be better information for us.
Tom
I SECOND THAT!!! Come Keyser, pick 'er up!!!
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,860
Hard-core CEG\'er
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Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,860 |
First time I've seen a cheering section to blow up an engine.  I have had a request from someone who wants my old block for a rebuild so I may not grenade it. We shall see.
2001 Lincoln LS8
1994 Lexus GS300
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 9,602
Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 9,602 |
What do you mean first???
I've been telling you that for months, likely even years...
2000 SVT #674
13.47 @ 102 - All Motor!
It was not broke; Yet I fixed it anyway.
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