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well I decided I would try something new and well I did. I called kung fu joe up and we decided to go at my rotors. I took a pic off the net of a rotor and blew it up then used it as a templet. after I drilled though it left the rotor pretty rough on the outsides of the holes so I used my dremel and clean the surface up a little. took about 5 or 6 hours total and was so worth it. I can stop like 10 times faster now. I am thinking about sloting them soon.I drilled a total of 8 holes on each rotor. it trembals a little but I think it will get better when the pads get broke in to the rotor but if not thats ok cause it was an awesome improvement
Trollin the boards as of 9/23
Originally posted by GS474:
stock hp is never enough
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Originally posted by Big Poppa:
I can stop like 10 times faster now.
hope you're joking 
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Originally posted by Big Poppa:
I can stop like 10 times faster now.
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this has to be a joke.
seriously.
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You seriously took your rotors off the car, drilled them yourself, then put them back on? And then you thought they made your car stop faster?
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if you dont believe me ask kung fu jo. I am really not joking one bit. I will take pic tomorrow. kung fu jo has a digi cam and I do not but he didnt think to bring it over tonight. they look pretty good. I will snap some pics for you guys tomorrow if you think I am joking
Trollin the boards as of 9/23
Originally posted by GS474:
stock hp is never enough
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Originally posted by SVT ST PETE:
Originally posted by Big Poppa:
I can stop like 10 times faster now.
ok so maybe not that fast but its faster. the improvement was just excellent over the stock non drilled rotors. I didnt use a g-tec or anything but it was much faster at stoping them before.
Trollin the boards as of 9/23
Originally posted by GS474:
stock hp is never enough
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Don't be surprised if your rotors crack in half after a couple of hours of traffic.
Last edited by livinsvt; 12/02/03 05:47 AM.
'99 Silver svt
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Check classifieds
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go get yourself some new rotors now.
Oo (xxx)oO
o xxxxxxxx o
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Originally posted by livinsvt:
Don't be surprised if your rotors crack in half after a couple of hours of traffic.
Anyone wanna start a pool on when they will?
Tony Datsenko
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BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA  Ya know, for a minute there I thought you were being serious.....:D
Ryan
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Hmm less surface area for the pad for them to contact makes the car stop quicker?! Right. Placebo effect taking place. If your rotors don't crack as previously stated it will be nothing short of a miracle.
-'96 SE MTX 3L
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Originally posted by Y2KSVT:
You seriously took your rotors off the car, drilled them yourself, then put them back on? And then you thought they made your car stop faster?
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the only place rotors should be cross drilled is at a machine shop, where there is acess to proper equipment...did you use water when you drilled????? if not you just runined your rotors, i dont even want to see them. i have seen countless times what happens when rotors are not cross drilled properly, if your holes are not PERFECTLY straight, it will cause a counterbalancing issue in the rotors, causing extreme wobble, and possible axle breakage...
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Originally posted by todras:
Hmm less surface area for the pad for them to contact makes the car stop quicker?! Right. Placebo effect taking place. If your rotors don't crack as previously stated it will be nothing short of a miracle.
I have to disagree. I myself have DBA crossdrilled/slotted rotors on mine and it does stop alot faster than stock. They really shine when stopping from high speeds in a hurry. There is no blueing, cracking or anything on mine after about 2500 miles. I know this because I get bored and pull my car apart what seems like every few weeks and the have been paying especially close attention to the rotors and pads. The pads are still good and everything.
Placebo effect, I personally don't think so. It does stop harder, faster without any fading at all.
Then again maybe it has something to do with the Wilwoods and style pad I have on top of the rotors.
Mike
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Duh Wilwood's. Single piston/dual piston might have something to do with it. 
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<sheepishly> dual piston <sheepishly>
but still, my rotors haven't cracked or anything, yet. The only problem I have is dusting from H E double hockey sticks.
Former - 98 CSVT E0 T-Red 4/4/97 #173 of 6535
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Originally posted by 69Boss302:
but still, my rotors haven't cracked or anything, yet.
Probably because you didn't do them by hand.
-'96 SE MTX 3L
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but what of all the horror stories you hear about rotors cracking and those are from big name companies? I know it's beating a dead horse, but the debate about crossdrilled vs. blank still goes on. I've seen racecars with them and without, with and without problems, motorcycles have them and don't seem to be a problem to them.
Maybe it's in the way they're made or circumstances that they are put into?
I agree that drilling your own isn't the best way to go, but maybe he'll get lucky and things will work out. Then again, maybe it will be a lesson learned without too much in consequences paid. Hopefully.
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Maybe there's a reason Bembro has the holes cast into the disks instead of drilling the blanks  DIY brake hole drilling, lol. I thought I had seen everything...
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As soon as I read the title of the post on the main index page, even before I clicked on it to read all the posts, I thought to myself: "This guy is a total F*!K'in idiot!"
"I'm not above the law, I'm beyond the law"
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well I dont think I am if nothing goes wrong with them. I cant wait til I get the pics up
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Originally posted by GS474:
stock hp is never enough
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"Absolut Rara."
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Originally posted by path914:
Maybe there's a reason Bembro has the holes cast into the disks instead of drilling the blanks
Not true at all. Cast in holes is a fable created on the internet. One that even I sadly had succumbed to for awhile.
Drilled rotors do have thier place, but your typical street car is not it at all. Drilled rotors are only of benefit when you have significantly more mass than required for thermal effects. Sport Bikes are a prime example of where drilled rotors make sense.
Drilled rotors WILL crack on a street car, especially where the rotor is the same as was originally sized for the car from the factory.
I wish I had more time to do a proper treatise on drilled rotors.
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Originally posted by Rara:
Drilled rotors WILL crack on a street car, especially where the rotor is the same as was originally sized for the car from the factory.
Is there a rough timeline as to when I expect mine to crack? After ~2,500 miles, they are no worse for the wear.
Former - 98 CSVT E0 T-Red 4/4/97 #173 of 6535
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Try 1 good track session. That should do it.
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I don't believe you or king fu joe. 
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Originally posted by 69Boss302:
Originally posted by Rara:
Drilled rotors WILL crack on a street car, especially where the rotor is the same as was originally sized for the car from the factory.
Is there a rough timeline as to when I expect mine to crack? After ~2,500 miles, they are no worse for the wear.
They will crack when heated and cooled rapidly. HEre's a fun test, but obviosuly at your own discretion and caution:
Drive to 80mph, brake hard to a near stop without locking up brakes.
Repeat 3-5 times.
Then drive and cool for a mile.
Drive to 60mph, brake hard to a near stop without locking up brakes.
Repeat 3-5 times.
Then drive and cool.
Drive and brake from like 50 to 25 or something, medium pressure breaking, and go home.
If your rotors survive that, and you have to be legit about it, then obviously you should be ok. For awhile. Bedding your rotors in is the BEST test to see if they can take it. The reason we're all concerned here is that stock cross drilled rotors are usually made from thicker than stock rotors, they are precisely drilled, and the rotors have NEVER been used.
Used rotors have already heated and cooled, effectively they've been bed in with the pad. If you go and drill it up, obviously some of the metal will weaken since the rotors aren't forged, they are cast, and like the discussion ensuing down below in the 3L forum about cast vs. forged pistons, the van der waals forces or whatever that hold the cast metal together will be altered when drilling on used rotors.
For reference, my Baer rotors are 13" and are 1.25" thick, significantly larger and wider than stock ones. They are cross drilled (a mistake I won't make again), but the rotors are a large enough heat sink to take track abuse and not crack.
my .02
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bawhahahahaha Naw guys I am just screwing with you. some of you are funny. I dont think anybody is this stupid to drill there own brakes. LOL I still have the stockers hahahahaha
Trollin the boards as of 9/23
Originally posted by GS474:
stock hp is never enough
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haha?
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I have made several high speed stops, 100 and up, followed by normal driving and I have done this several times over. Most recently, Sunday afternoon. I forgot to mention earlier that I have seen cracked solid/blank rotors before. I have cracked two myself on my previous SVT and they were solid. But that was after getting them "racing orange". I've seen others cracked as well, but I believe they might have been cheap.
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Originally posted by Big Poppa:
bawhahahahaha Naw guys I am just screwing with you. some of you are funny. I dont think anybody is this stupid to drill there own brakes. LOL I still have the stockers hahahahaha
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Originally posted by ssmumich00:
the van der waals forces or whatever that hold the cast metal together will be altered when drilling on used rotors.
Van Der Waal's forces have nothing to do with this. Those are the forces that exist between any two molecules. By drilling the rotors, you do NOT affect these forces, other than take some material out. The remaining metal stays the same chemically. The chemical compostion cannot change by merely drilling a few holes, unless the temp gets extremely hot. If you doubt me, then go take 3 years of chemistry at any well known chemistry/pharmacy school, then come talk to me.
Anyways... this is a dead issue anyways. Someone just wanted to be funny. Good job
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that wasn't very funny really, I just kept thinking what an idiot and then you were like "i was just joking" and i was like.... oh well.
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Mother#@%@!* did I sound abstract?
I hope it sounded more confusin than that!
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That was actually stupid, not funny. It's a subtle but important distinction.
-john
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Wow you are an idiot First off the holes have to be symmetrical and spaced properly also even drilled rotors that are real they donâ??t do much. Drilling and slotting rotors has become popular in street applications for their pure aesthetic value. When you drill or slot a rotor it reduces rotating weight, an issue that is very important to racers who are searching for ways to minimize un-sprung weight, also Drilling diminishes a rotor's durability and cooling capacity. Let's look at some common rotor "modification" and "performance" upgrades that you may have been exposed to. Bigger rotors will make your friends think you are cool, bigger rotors look ***y, but bigger rotors do not stop the car. What a bigger rotor will do is lower the overall operating temperature of the brakes - which is a GREAT idea IF your temperatures are causing problems with other parts of the braking system.
Take for example, a Formula 500 racer, a small 800-pound, single-seat formula car. While the brakes are certainly much smaller than those found on a 3200-pound GT1 Camaro, that does not necessarily mean that they need to be made larger. In fact, installing a GT1 brake package onto a formula car would probably do more harm than good. That's a lot of steel hanging on the wheel that needs to accelerate each time the gas pedal is pushed. So the bigger the better until your temperatures are under control. After that point, you are doing more harm than good, unless you really like the look. Cross drilling your rotors might look neat, but what is it really doing for you? Well, unless your car is using brake pads from the 40's and 50's, not a whole lot. Rotors were first drilled because early brake pad materials gave off gasses when heated to racing temperatures, a process known as "gassing out." These gasses then formed a thin layer between the brake pad face and the rotor, acting as a lubricant and effectively lowering the coefficient of friction. The holes were implemented to give the gasses somewhere to go. It was an effective solution, but today's friction materials do not exhibit the same gassing out phenomenon as the early pads. For this reason, the holes have carried over more as a design feature than a performance feature. Contrary to popular belief, they don't lower temperatures. (In fact, by removing weight from the rotor, they can actually cause temperatures to increase a little.) These holes create stress risers that allow the rotor to crack sooner, and make a mess of brake pads - sort of like a cheese grater rubbing them at every stop. Want more evidence? Look at NASCAR or F1. You would think that if drilling holes in the rotor was the hot ticket, then these teams would be doing it. The one glaring exception here is in the rare situation where rotors are so oversized that they need to be drilled like Swiss cheese. (Look at any performance motorcycle or lighter formula car. for an example.) While the issues of stress risers and brake pad wear are still present, drilling is used to reduce the mass of the parts in spite of these concerns. Remember that nothing comes for free. If these teams switched to non-drilled rotors, they would see lower operating temperatures and longer brake pad life, at the expense of higher weight. It's all about tradeoffs.
Slotting rotors, on the other hand, might be a consideration if your sanctioning body allows for it. Cutting thin slots across the face of the rotor can actually help to clean the face of the brake pads over time, helping to reduce the glazing often found during high-speed use which can lower the coefficient of friction. While there may still be a small concern over creating stress risers in the face of the rotor, if the slots are shallow and cut properly, the trade-off appears to be worth the risks. (Have you looked at a NASCAR rotor lately?)
Wow I am done that took awhile, but I hope it stops at least one person from drilling their rotors, themselves!
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Originally posted by JonnySVT:
that wasn't very funny really, I just kept thinking what an idiot and then you were like "i was just joking" and i was like.... oh well.
Ditto, I think the word Idiot may have traveled through my mind a few dozen times too?
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wow, I saw the title...then I saw 4 pages and instantly knew someone was gettin flamed.
I read some of the thread...but just so I know.
What are some negative effects he might have from drilling them himself vs picking up some already drilled rotors?
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hmm this was all a jk that was a waste of 5 mins of reading.. either way u suck 
-the original non contour owner-
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I dont think it was a joke. I think hes just trying to save face. I think hes over at napa buying four new rotors  If people realy thought i did that to my car, After i relized how stupid i was, i could never post on this board again. I would be too imbarased. 
98 csvt t-red.. sho-shop intake, b&m, fidanza, spec1 clutch, Torsen, DMD,optimized Y& TB, Brullen, rear strut bar,h&r's,17" konig traffik's.
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LOL no I am not buying new rotors yet infact I will be buying stazis rotor upgrade soon. this was just a joke. a year ago I would have be flamed faster the a rabbit with his ass on fire. this thread would have jumped to 20 pages in a day. the first reason I wouldnt cross drill my own rotors is cause I am to lazy to take all that crap off and dril them when I am not sure what will happen.
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Originally posted by GS474:
stock hp is never enough
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Originally posted by Big Poppa:
LOL no I am not buying new rotors yet infact I will be buying stazis rotor upgrade soon. this was just a joke. a year ago I would have be flamed faster the a rabbit with his ass on fire. this thread would have jumped to 20 pages in a day. the first reason I wouldnt cross drill my own rotors is cause I am to lazy to take all that crap off and dril them when I am not sure what will happen.
oh quit trying to cover up already! we know you did it!
Jim Hahn
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ok so when I said I did it nobody believed me but when I say I really didnt do it you all think I did. you guys are messed up. you wanna come take a look at my rotors.
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Originally posted by GS474:
stock hp is never enough
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Shawn Clone
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well it was fun to read all the replies. I didnt want to end the fun to soon LOL... I got a pen cam if you guy want me to take a pic of the rotors. it wont be the best but you will get the idea
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Originally posted by GS474:
stock hp is never enough
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Originally posted by Big Poppa:
I can stop like 10 times faster now.
I knew he was joking when I saw this. This was almost as funny as the "I'm going to make my own swaybar" thread! Oh... you were serious about that one??  Sorry Cody! 
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The only thing wrong with this thread is that it didn't revolve around April 1.
-- 1999 SVT #220 --
In retrospect, it was all downhill from here. RIP, CEG.
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Hard-core CEG'er
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OP
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Originally posted by White99SE:
Originally posted by Big Poppa:
I can stop like 10 times faster now.
I knew he was joking when I saw this. This was almost as funny as the "I'm going to make my own swaybar" thread! Oh... you were serious about that one?? Sorry Cody!
actually I did make my own bar roger LOL. I have had it installed for about a year now. rich and stolen have seen it. I think show has to. I will show it to you next time your over
Trollin the boards as of 9/23
Originally posted by GS474:
stock hp is never enough
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Hard-core CEG\'er
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Well, either way you know that either A) someone has done it before or B) it's only a matter of time before someoen does.
Former - 98 CSVT E0 T-Red 4/4/97 #173 of 6535
Dear Santa
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Hard-core CEG'er
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OP
Hard-core CEG'er
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really to cross drill your own brakes you would have to a a MOTARD
Trollin the boards as of 9/23
Originally posted by GS474:
stock hp is never enough
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Veteran CEG\'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
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I think I deserve to see pics of self drillec rotors now...
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Zetec I think you need to check page three for your answer to the self drilled rotors.
Austin -officially a troll
See it here
Pro-Flow w/ optimizer STILL for sale
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Originally posted by COntour:
Zetec
I think you need to check page three for your answer to the self drilled rotors.
no, I don't care if it was a joke.
I wanna see some right now.
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CEG\'er
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CEG\'er
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Well I just finished reading all the replies and holy
!@#k.I remember reading something on this site about giving advice when I joined and it said something like if you're going to advise poeple on things make sure you are 100% sure of what you are saying. After reading all that info on why brakes this ,why driil that , why slot these, a lot of you only have partial info and should maybe pick up a book on brakes and READ it. first drilling home made rotors bad idea,if you want them buy them from a resctable company i.e BREMBO. Second drilled rotors are made yes for gassing out that's it. Slotted rotors are for dust that's it.you see how simple this is. One more thing everybody here missed all the people who upgrade there brakes should look at getting better brake fluid. Why? Because all of you who have experienced brake fade are not to far from brake faliure (brake fluid boiling)from over heating brakes.I'm not coming down on anybody but and don't want to we all share the same passion for cars and actually a paticular car at that. So there's my two cents.
REDLINING IT ALL THE TIME
1998 mtx zetec contour
17.1 @79mph
open element air filter
ford 9mm racing wires
dtm style exhaust
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Originally posted by fasti4contour:
Well I just finished reading all the replies and holy
!@#k.I remember reading something on this site about giving advice when I joined and it said something like if you're going to advise poeple on things make sure you are 100% sure of what you are saying. After reading all that info on why brakes this ,why driil that , why slot these, a lot of you only have partial info and should maybe pick up a book on brakes and READ it. first drilling home made rotors bad idea,if you want them buy them from a resctable company i.e BREMBO. Second drilled rotors are made yes for gassing out that's it. Slotted rotors are for dust that's it.you see how simple this is. One more thing everybody here missed all the people who upgrade there brakes should look at getting better brake fluid. Why? Because all of you who have experienced brake fade are not to far from brake faliure (brake fluid boiling)from over heating brakes.I'm not coming down on anybody but and don't want to we all share the same passion for cars and actually a paticular car at that. So there's my two cents.
I don't think you did read all the replies because the entire thing is a joke! 
-- 1999 SVT #220 --
In retrospect, it was all downhill from here. RIP, CEG.
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CEG\'er
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Joke or not it still got poeple going and still showed what people know
REDLINING IT ALL THE TIME
1998 mtx zetec contour
17.1 @79mph
open element air filter
ford 9mm racing wires
dtm style exhaust
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Hard-core CEG'er
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You made your own SWAY BAR? OK, apart from me and a CNC bending machine, no one else has ever done this. I'd like to now how you managed to bend spring steel yourself...... Are you sure you're not confused with the terminlogy and mean a rear STRUT BRACE?
2000 SVT Turbo 295hp/269ftlb@12psi
#1 for Bendix Brakes Kits!
Knuckles rebuilt w/new bearings $55
AUSSIE ENDLINKS $70
Gutted pre-cats $80/set
A lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine!
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Hard-core CEG\'er
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calm down fasti, it was a stupid joke and half of what people said was right. Half of these people give their oipinions no matter if it's right or not, so obviously you haven't been here too long to know who knows what they're talking about or not. But if you are one of those people that like to come into a semi dead post and get mad at everybody, that's even more funny, have fun.
99 SVTC, T-Red, #652/2760-12.8.1998
Mother#@%@!* did I sound abstract?
I hope it sounded more confusin than that!
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Hard-core CEG'er
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OP
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yea I made a strut tower brace. isnt that what we were talking about. I am pretty sure I couldnt make a sway bar. I could try though LOL
Trollin the boards as of 9/23
Originally posted by GS474:
stock hp is never enough
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CEG\'er
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You know what all I was doing was giving my opinion as well. which is all these are, are opinions you take things too seriously.Please don't tell me to calm down you started spouting off at me . You should also go back and read my post because I'm not coming down on anybody I'm not here to piss poeple off I'm here to enjoy the love of cars and the contour.
REDLINING IT ALL THE TIME
1998 mtx zetec contour
17.1 @79mph
open element air filter
ford 9mm racing wires
dtm style exhaust
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Hard-core CEG\'er
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Hard-core CEG\'er
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Quote:
Well I just finished reading all the replies and holy
!@#k.I remember reading something on this site about giving advice when I joined and it said something like if you're going to advise poeple on things make sure you are 100% sure of what you are saying. After reading all that info on why brakes this ,why driil that , why slot these, a lot of you only have partial info and should maybe pick up a book on brakes and READ it. first drilling home made rotors bad idea,if you want them buy them from a resctable company i.e BREMBO. Second drilled rotors are made yes for gassing out that's it. Slotted rotors are for dust that's it. you see how simple this is
well i sensed a bit of sarcasm and belittling done on your part, you didn't?...
And if you can't tell by the smiley face at the end.....my reply was meant to entertain, not blow up on you otherwise I would use one of these or one of these  or  , you get the point...so i'll ask you again, can ya calm down?
99 SVTC, T-Red, #652/2760-12.8.1998
Mother#@%@!* did I sound abstract?
I hope it sounded more confusin than that!
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this was really entertaining because you're telling me to calm down when I'm not even mad but whatever I'm not going to keep on doing this so sorry if I flustered you. And there was no sarcasm I just wanted to make sure I was getting my point across in a very blunt and straight forward way.
REDLINING IT ALL THE TIME
1998 mtx zetec contour
17.1 @79mph
open element air filter
ford 9mm racing wires
dtm style exhaust
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Posts: 2,676
Hard-core CEG\'er
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Hard-core CEG\'er
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Originally posted by fasti4contour:
this was really entertaining because you're telling me to calm down when I'm not even mad but whatever I'm not going to keep on doing this so sorry if I flustered you. And there was no sarcasm I just wanted to make sure I was getting my point across in a very blunt and straight forward way.
Simmer down
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Originally posted by Big Poppa:
yea I made a strut tower brace. isnt that what we were talking about. I am pretty sure I couldnt make a sway bar. I could try though LOL
Hey, calm down there, mister, or I'll shoot zees French Ooker.
Function before fashion.
'96 Contour SE
"Toss the Contour into a corner, and it's as easy to catch as a softball thrown by a preschooler." -Edmunds, 1998
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With a strange Hungarian/Mr. Bean accent...
"I'm going to vote for the Franky Zappa!"
Don't analyze it, it'll hurt your brain.
Un-Official NE-CEG "I'm the only person I know who likes Contours"-er.
Occifer, I'm drunking I really think!
-98 SE Sport w/ audio and repairs.
-E-Mail> imprettymuchaloser@yahoo.com
-AIM> IDriveA911
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Originally posted by Big Poppa:
bawhahahahaha Naw guys I am just screwing with you. some of you are funny. I dont think anybody is this stupid to drill there own brakes. LOL I still have the stockers hahahahaha
90' Bright Orange Mustang
65k - 13.306@105.1 
Looking for another CSVT
~Blas~
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Addicted CEG\'er
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Addicted CEG\'er
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Posts: 9,442 |
Originally posted by ZetecNinja:
Originally posted by COntour:
Zetec
I think you need to check page three for your answer to the self drilled rotors.
no, I don't care if it was a joke.
I wanna see some right now.
Here's mine, they go on this week...
I'll be doing the tires with my next check 
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Wow! I'm gonna cross drill my rotors and rear axle drums!
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Hey I just got done with mine, I swear I did this myself...  -Jeff-
1998 Black SVT
Morette Twin headlight conversion
Street flight turbo kit collecting dust!
Rebuilding my 3.0L
check it out
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Damn! I read "I swear I did this myself" and I was totally stoked to see a stock rotor with a bunch of random holes going through.
Aside: What's the purpose/benefit of cross-drilling and slotting?
Un-Official NE-CEG "I'm the only person I know who likes Contours"-er.
Occifer, I'm drunking I really think!
-98 SE Sport w/ audio and repairs.
-E-Mail> imprettymuchaloser@yahoo.com
-AIM> IDriveA911
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Smurfette
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Smurfette
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Posts: 8,770 |
Originally posted by Qwk98svt:
Hey I just got done with mine, I swear I did this myself...
lol, you really are a filthy whore
the purpose for cross drilling/slotting was mentioned earlier in this thread, if you can wade through all the b!tching...
Kim
1995 Contour GL
Needs less "needs more"
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CEG road warrior
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CEG road warrior
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Posts: 17,248 |
Originally posted by bk4293:
Originally posted by ZetecNinja:
Originally posted by COntour:
Zetec
I think you need to check page three for your answer to the self drilled rotors.
no, I don't care if it was a joke.
I wanna see some right now.
Here's mine, they go on this week...
I'll be doing the tires with my next check
LMAO!!!
Hector
2003 Rally Red Mitsubishi Evolution VIII
257HP/259TQ
2005 Lapis Blue Mazda 6s
RET: 00 Cabernet Red Ford Contour Zetec ATX SUPERCHARGED
160HP/141TQ
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Originally posted by fasti4contour:
this was really entertaining because you're telling me to calm down when I'm not even mad but whatever I'm not going to keep on doing this so sorry if I flustered you. And there was no sarcasm I just wanted to make sure I was getting my point across in a very blunt and straight forward way.
Owned
Must be that jumbly-wumbly thing happening again.
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This is the best thread ever! We have insults. Then we have insults retorting the insults. Then we have insults insulting the the "Non-insult-fullness" of the insults. Rock on CEG!
Un-Official NE-CEG "I'm the only person I know who likes Contours"-er.
Occifer, I'm drunking I really think!
-98 SE Sport w/ audio and repairs.
-E-Mail> imprettymuchaloser@yahoo.com
-AIM> IDriveA911
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