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Originally posted by Josch:
I have a fairly decent grasp on the laws of physics, and all I can see from all these posts is that Rara has a pretty good grasp too.



Maybe so, but in this case, nobody has come up with a coherent way to back up this criticism of "you've disregarded flow".

Originally posted by Josch:
You maybe need to study this stuff better before you waste alot of money on your prototypes.

First of all, a starter motor doesn't come anywhere near even close to 10 hp.



The larger ones do.

Originally posted by Josch:
The only reason it can turn an engine over is because it is gear reducted (ie. big flywheel vs. tiny starter gear).



That's torque, not horsepower. Gearing doesn't change horsepower demand.

Originally posted by Josch:
If you were to gear it the other way to try and turn a compressor impeller the speed necessary to feed an engine running at 5000rpms with 4psi say, I don't even think the starter would barely turn over (the vacuum from the engine's intake across the impeller would probably help the starter turn a little). I don't even think you could get .001 psi at 5000rpm with a typical starter motor off a car.



The e-RAM product delivers about .5 PSI with a motor one tenth the size and current draw of a starter motor -- it's small enough to hide in your hand -- and that's with a poor kind of compressor. That would not be possible if this speculation of yours were valid. And also, it's in line with what the flow times backpressure calculation predicts.

Since I have measured this myself and know it's true, this speculative naysaying of yours goes right out the window. All you have to offer is guesses.

Originally posted by Josch:
Here, read this:
[....]
and
http://www.electricsupercharger.com (haha)



The ebay stuff is scams using tiny weak motors. The latter product was dynoed with an authentic 9 HP gain by Brad Noon, one of the most respected CEGers. That's the one I measured the boost on myself.

Originally posted by Josch:
Why not just use a pulley/belt and a shaft (ie. Vortec) to get the power directly and avoid all the heat losses from electron movement (not to mention the weight from motors and batteries),



Because belt-driven superchargers, both centrifugal and positive-displacement, put a demand on the driveshaft that is not moderated in proportion to the need for power, and that demand is greatest when you're working the engine the hardest. An electric blower, on the other hand, draws power from the driveshaft at a later time, when the engine is not under a high load.

Originally posted by Josch:
or use the 'free' exhaust gases (heat energy) that the motor just throws away anyways and convert that to usable energy (ie. conventional methods)??



Well ideally, that's what you'd do even with an electrical system. I think that hybrid-electric cars are going to be pretty much the norm by 2010 or so, and when they are, it will make a lot of sense for the makers to put the generator on an exhaust turbine instead of on the drive shaft. It could boost mileage significantly, and there will be plenty of pressure to boost mileage. I am not using exhaust power for the simple reason that I'm doing this cheap. If I was going all-out, of course I would use exhaust power.

Originally posted by Josch:
By the way, I had your same idea when I was like 18-19 years old and it DOES sure sound like a good idea on paper, but it just can't work with today's technology. Wouldn't you just rather work extra hard for a summer and then just buy the complete turbo kit?



Where's the fun in that? I'm not a racer, I don't spend my weekends at the track trying to shave tenths off my ET... if I'm going to invest in a big engine project, I'm going to do it because it's interesting and original. If I fail, I'm out a smallish amount of money and some absorbing hobby time, and if I succeed, I open a pathway that people didn't have available before. That means more to me than just having a faster car. If I just want a faster car I'll buy one.

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i can't believe this inane thread is still alive, dammit, there's no way to do FI without a tc or sc, end of story. . .no electric this or that. . .

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What about that kewl leaf blower I saw on here though? That looked like it would work


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Originally posted by ssmumich00:
i can't believe this inane thread is still alive, dammit, there's no way to do FI without a tc or sc, end of story. . .no electric this or that. . .




You'd be surprised at the out-put of 2 gerbils on a wheel near a loud sound source...vrooooooooooom baby!

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Originally posted by mcgainer:
Originally posted by ssmumich00:
i can't believe this inane thread is still alive, dammit, there's no way to do FI without a tc or sc, end of story. . .no electric this or that. . .




You'd be surprised at the out-put of 2 gerbils on a wheel near a loud sound source...vrooooooooooom baby!




!!!!!

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Originally posted by ssmumich00:
Originally posted by mcgainer:
Originally posted by ssmumich00:
i can't believe this inane thread is still alive, dammit, there's no way to do FI without a tc or sc, end of story. . .no electric this or that. . .




You'd be surprised at the out-put of 2 gerbils on a wheel near a loud sound source...vrooooooooooom baby!




!!!!!




Especially if you give them steroids and oatmeal!




Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760 356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas! See My Mods '05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red '06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
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Originally posted by Paul Kienitz:
Originally posted by Josch:
First of all, a starter motor doesn't come anywhere near even close to 10 hp.



The larger ones do.






Yeah ok, let just go salvage a Caterpillar starter off a D-12 Earthmover, and then you can put 2 big batteries in your trunk to spin it up and create your boost, and the instant you floor it (and your WOT switch engages the motor's solenoid) and your batteries rapidly drop in voltage as your motor spins up to speed, then your alternator (if sized correctly) will put your same 10hp load on your crankshaft thru the alternator belt as it tries to keep the batteries charged. If your alternator is too small (like stock amperage), it will just full-field your alternator for a long time to try and charge your batteries and will overheat and likely fry the diodes in it.... Ok, (you think) why not just rig up a simple WOT switch to shut off the field current to the alternator (shutting it down) for while you get on it?.... so then after you put that on, you floor it and watch your voltmeter drop down to 10 volts as the boost kicks in and your ignition system gets very weak and combustion becomes less complete (especially at the higher rpms when you need the hottest spark under those boost conditions). You don't believe me? Try it and see....on a backyard budget even? Even more impossible. Automakers couldn't even do it. Big diesel engine companies really could profit from this method if workable. They still can't figure it out either. And you hope to acheive this on a shoestring budjet?

Sometimes I wonder why I bother trying so hard to reason with the unreasonable

But if you DO do it and succeed, then you can market it, sell it to all the automakers and big diesel companies, get rich, and then come back here and laugh at all of us here and you can tell the world how wrong us stupid skeptics were


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First, on the flow question, I guess the best way to describe it, is volumetric efficiency flow losses; the engine is sucking air in, not just letting it flow in, hence a less than atmospheric pressure reading on an NA intake manifold. Granted, not a major deal (its the whole system that makes this not feasible, not just this) but still some percentage loss on the total.

Let's revisit the math, since you are so keen on that.

First we will start with the actual equaiton for determining the power required for continuous compression (note you still weren't that far off on this one, but enough)

Pt= Theoretical power required to compress the air continuously.
Ps= Shaft power required due to adiabatic efficiency losses in the compressor.
k= ratio of specific heat at const. pressure and const. volume, assumed to = 1.4 for air.
Q= air flow rate
p1=equivalent NA pressure at intake valve(s)
p2=desired boost pressure at intake valve(s)


Pt= (k/(k-1))*Q*p1*[((p2/p1)^((k-1)/k)-1]

For the Zetec, I've used the following specs.
Bore = 84.8mm
Stroke = 88.0mm
peak rpm = 6000
Ambient air temp = 20* C
Vol. Eff. = 85%
Stock power = 93kW = 125hp
and boost, first I used 35kPa (~5psi) and later I used 70kPa (~10psi) and no intercooler, because of Paul's apparent disdain for them.

Typical turbocharger sizing calculations come up with the following:

Flow @ 35kPa = ~0.101m^3/s but output is only ~122kW or 165hp (at the engine, not the wheels)

Flow @ 70kPa = ~0.116m^3/s with output ~140kW ~188hp

Note that the eqautions I've used for this stuff are notable optimistic as far as power output #'s. You can find calculators that use the same equations at Ray Hall's website: http://www.turbofast.com.au/ if you wish to check for yourself.

Now, to get back to the power equation. The only caveat here, is that rather than use the std. atmospheric pressure of 100kPa, I multiply that by the volumetric efficiency we have assumed for the engine (which at 85% is pretty optimistic for high rpm) and get 85kPa.

So, for Paul's assumed 35kPa boost pressure we get the following.
Pt = 5.00kW
Now, typical centrifugal compressor efficiency is something like 65% so:
Ps = 5kW/.65 = 7.69 kW at the electric motor shaft. This is roughly 10.3 hp required from the motor.

Now, assuming your 12V system, this is roughly 650Amps running ANY TIME you wish to have boost, assuming of course, the motor is 100% efficient, though, as you all know, there aren't any of those around . . . Note also, this is only to make ~165 hp at the flywheel, or what is actually slightly less than a stock duratec. Even on a 24V system, it is still ~325Amps.

Now, Paul was looking for ~200hp w/ his 5psi, and that ain't gonna happen, so let's see what happens when we double the boost pressure to 70kPa. We know from above that the power is much closer (188hp) so this should be a reasonable amount.

Now, checking for required power:

Pt = 7.57kW
Ps = 7.57kW/.65 = 11.65kW ~ 15.6hp from the electric motor.

Again, at 12V, this would require in excess of 970 Amps, even assuming a perfectly efficient motor. and even at 24V would require ~485 Amps minimum.

I don't know about you guys, but this seems to me like its requiring a DAMN BIG electrical system, even for very short bursts on a very low duty cycle. This is even aside from finding a suitable motor, and finding a place to put it. Oh, I also failed to mention, that your typical centrifugal compressor will be spinning well over 100k rpm to meet these flow requirements, and whatever magical wonder motor paul chooses to run will need to be even bigger to account for the additional losses due to the required gearing to run the compressor at the appropriate speed.

Paul,
its not like this is a new idea. Every freshman engineering student in every school across the nation (and even world) has jumped on this at one time or another, only to find it isn't feasible (or at least worthwhile) with present technology. You have been whining about the cost of an intercooler becuase you want to do your project cheaply, but really, do you think even a version of this that doesn't even work well is going to be cheap? An intercooler, even a new one from spearco, will be a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of the required componentry for this sort of a setup. High current motors, custom compressors and gearing, much larger alternator, 2nd battery, high current electrical distribution and control components, most all needing to be custom made. All for the same amount of hp that could be had in the other motor offered in the car stock, and all the time, not just for extremely short bursts of time. And to top it all off, you still wouldn't be legal to drive the car in california. Though, you could anyway, and really piss off all your neighbors over in Berkeley.

On Edit - I can't spell . . .

Last edited by Rara; 08/09/03 03:17 PM.

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Very nice, summed up simply and supported with a little math.



war....


Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760 356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas! See My Mods '05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red '06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
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This thread is like crack:
>I have better things to do with my time
>I am incapeable of doing anything else while reading
>This is probably killing brain cells somehow
>I keep coming back for more

Disclamer: I have never tried crack, and if I have offended those of you who do crack, I apologize.




Contour--It will make a master mechanic out of you! 95 LX MTX Bolt-ons 95 Neon SOHC ATX 77 Dodge Powerwagon-more displacement than my Neon, Contour, and wife's Saturn---combined!
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