Contour Enthusiasts Group Archives Forums Modifications 3.0L Duratec '01 3L Block + '99 CSVT Heads = No Oil Supply??

Many apologies if this is a repeat- A search yielded no useable results.

I have posted to the NECO boards my 3L hybrid assembly process here, and I believe that I have a potentially severe oil supply problem to the rear head.

At the bottom of the post, you'll see my 3L/2.5CSVT head comparison. I've numbered all of the corresponding passageways, noting the oil return hole that I had filled and planed by an aluminum welder. The issue comes in an unexpected form.

As you see in the comparison, there is an oil supply line under the hole marked "24" in the 3L head, but there is no corresponding receiver in the CSVT head. This by itself is an issue, but not a huge one, as I can turn the engine upside-down, tap & plug that hole in the block with a cap much like the ones that cover the oil feeds @ the back of the heads.

The problem is this- Is the passageway marked "3" the oil supply line for the SVT heads?

Also- The 3L head gasket has a VERY small hole in the spot marked "3". This won't allow enough oil into the head to pump up the lash adjusters and lubricate the cams? If I widen the hole, how much, and do I affect oil pressure and/or volume to the rest of the engine?

It appears the SVT heads only had this one "3" supply line. That supply line carries oil that has already been through the crank, and is thus substantially hotter than the oil supplied to the front head. Why the difference I wonder?

No need to worry. That hole is not used on the Taurus 3L either. I found that out when I was doing my 3L. You already got the idea of what you need to do, but you can simplify it by just drilling and tapping the hole and fit a screw in there to block it off (cut the head off and seal it with JB weld or whatever). I believe when we first talked about that oil feed line, people said that it is used in the Lincoln LS. The Taurus 3L heads sit right over it so there is no need to plug the line, but the 2.5L heads doesn't cover it so you need to plug it up.

#3's are the feed line for the heads.

BTW, the info can be found in the 3L archieve. It's hiding somewhere in there, not the easiest to find, but they're there.

Additional info can be found in the archives here:
http://www.contour.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=3L&Number=2543&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&vc=1

Great info- I will be tapping NPT and loc-titeing (is that even a word?!) an allen plug in there. The last question came from the size of the oil supply hole in the head gasket- Maybe 2 or 3mm in diameter! The actual oil supply and receiver line in the head & block is subtantially larger. Since the 2.5L heads do not have the benefit of a second oil source, should I not widen the main oil passageway in the head gasket? Last thing I need is an oil supply problem to the rear head.

Thanks again in advance.

obicanobi:

That's just my point- The 3L heads have two oil supply lines- The 2.5L has only one. The 3L head gaskets are biased for two. Stands to reason that the one that's used would have to be opened up more than it is now because the head only has that one source of oil.

obi:

Not sure on that- This picture


sure looks like that's an open passageway into the 3L head. I can verify when I get home tonight. If it is open, any suggestions?

That is just the oil return passage. It doesn't affect pressure at all. We plug off the corresponding port in the block.

The oil feed passage is #3 for both heads. The second oil feed passage is at the bottom of the 3L head in your picture that you don't have numbered, and isn't used. Later 99+ 3L blocks have that port but its sealed when the head is put into place. On my 98 3L block there is no passage there on the block. If you have the passage plug it off. If you failed to plug it you will have no pressure to the valve train. If you did plug it off then you should be good.
Perhaps you need to take compressed air and blow air throught the oil feed passage in the heads and make sure it isn't blocked.

The holes you need to plug are pictured here in red circles. It looks like you got the return holes just fine, but the one feed hole needs blocked too. The 3L head is actually just dead space over this hole anyway. The oil feed from that bank actually comes from a hole near the trans side (green circle).

Brad/War:

I think we're confusing each other with terminology. My question is not which hole to fill, but whether or not the hole in the head gasket is sufficient to be the only oil supply to the rear head. My gut says no, since the 3L rear head gets oil from both the front and the rear, so the rear hole does not have to be as large. Does the 2.5L head gasket have a larger hole for the rear oil supply line?

I had an aluminum welder go over the oil return holes, and they were machined smooth at the machine shop. Here's my situation:



Now- The oil supply hole in the head gasket is my question. I believe it's too small. There wouldn't, from the looks of it, be enough oil flowing through that tiny hole to supply the entire head with lubrication. I want to know whether or not the hole in the 3L head gasket should be enlarged.

The holes would need to be compared between the 3L head gasket and the 2.5 gasket then. IIRC, they are the same and would limit the ultimate flow equally to the heads. Double check me though, it's been almost a year and a half since I have done a full rebuild with 2.5 heads... Even then it was with an older block that didn't have the extra feed port.

Ok, I see now.
If you widen out the hole you will reduce the pressure below it, i.e. there will be more oil going up and less feeding the mains and rods. In this situation, the mains might be all right but the rods are the last in line for oil w/respect to block...everything below the block deck. You definitely don't want to short them on oil volume or pressure.
None of us have had any issues with the stock oil hole in the head gasket allowing enough oil to the top end.
First: Are you sure that you have an oil problem to the rear head? If you are sure then I would look for a restriction at the gasket or higher.
If you are hearing a bunch of noise up top at the rear head, then maybe you have one or more collapsed lifters. I can't imagine that you'd have a lot since these lifters seem to do pretty well in our motors, but if they aren't pumping up they will make a hell of a rattle. Possible causes will be restricted oil, or just collapsed lifters.
The easy way to check would be to pull the rear valve cover and check to see how much oil is in the little depressions in the head around the valves. If you have plenty of oil sitting there, check your lifters by pushing on them and seeing if they are solid or springy.
Once you know that then you can proceed to the next step, final diagnosis.
While you are at it, pull both valve covers and compare the front to the back since you have no apparent trouble with the fronts.

Oh yeah, one other thing. Check the timing on the rear Cams!! If you have the timing off you could have mild contact with the valves on the pistons. It may not break anything and it would still run ok. I went through this on my old BMW, and I KNOW its possible! It sounds just like there is no oil to the lifters. Since you have two timing chains the possibility is more real because you could have the front bank timed correctly and therefore it will sound fine, but the rears will sound like a bucket of bolts.
Pull your spark plugs and valve covers. Rotate your engine clockwise until your front bank cams are lined up the same as if you had just timed them along with the crankshaft being at TDC. Check the #1 piston to see its at TDC by sticking a rod down throught the spark plug hole. By all rights, all 4 cams should be in the correct position, as if you just timed them. If they aren't then you need to re-time them.
If you find them out of time, don't worry about the pistons or valves right now. They may have little marks in them, but they may be ok still. Just re-time it and then test drive it. You won't do anymore damage than may already be done and it could save you lots of $.

Good luck, but I would definitely start diagnosing this right away and stop worrying about the size of the head gasket oil passage.
Let us know what happens.

warmonger

Sheesh, Tom... I don't think he's even finished putting it together yet.

But do be careful with the timing. Don't even look at the arrows at the back of the cams. Just line up the marks on the front of the cam sprockets & crank sprocket with the colored links on the chains and you can't go wrong.

War- Procyon is right- This engine's not even together yet. The questions and so forth that I have are based on a gut instinct that almost 26 years of working on cars has developed. I see the receiver and the supply line with this tiny passage in the head gasket and I think "Uh oh". I'll go over to the local Ford dealer and check a 2.5L head gasket. That'll solve the question right there. I'll take my camera with me to get a quick snapshot and post it.

Trust me on the timing- Nothing is more important in my mind after this oil supply issue. I'm going to spin that thing around at least 10 times to make sure all the marks are dead on (though on these motors it's kinda hard to screw it up).

Oh, my bad.

Sorry DanG, with all the questions I thought we were talking about a real problem here...all righty then. Take two aspirin and call me in the morning.

May be this has been covered, but are those the stock pistons? I seem to recall seeing valve reliefs on some in the past. Also, I do not see the arrows showing installation direction. What gives?

They look like Federal Mogul Speed Pro H662CP pistons that are 0.500mm oversize to me

Dan, all of the 2.5L and 3.0L head gaskets have the same small hole oil feed hole that you refer too. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. Somebody at Ford has all those hole sizes down to a science to meter out coolant & oil at the required rates.

BTW, I have never seen a RH Taurus head with that extra oil feed drilled in the front. Everyone I've seen was just flat and covered up the extra feed in the block. It may not be fully drilled and that's why it was allowed in production. (if they did notice it) Maybe blow in it and see if goes anywhere. But since you're not going to use it anyway, who cares?

DING DING DING DING... That's absolutely cooooooooorect, Procyon! And tell him what he's won, Johnny!

<Procyon, you've won exclusive bragging rights for being able to pick up on the fact that Dan G's pistons are INDEED Federal Mogul .50mm overbore pistons! You'll also be happy to know that the underside of these pistons have 2C4888 .50mm overbore rings, and Clevite CB1772P rod bearings! Thanks so much for playing, and enjoy these lovely parting gifts!>



<Crosses fingers> She's going together this weekend...

DanG. Could you tell me what the difference in weight between the SP pistons and your stock 3L pistons was? Did you have to rebalance anything?
I had considered using these myself but held off for these reasons.

War:

I have no info on the weight difference between the two, but by mere diameter I'd say the overbores are slightly heavier. Federal Mogul makes good stuff, so I'm confident that they are as substantial as they need to be without any unnecessary weight.

The crank was polished, and the entire assembly was balanced - DMD, crank, Fidanza, and Centerforce. I'm confident in the shop's knowledge and abilities. This thing is going to be sooooo smooth...

Also- Day 3 project pics are up. PLEASE NOTE the oiling differences between the 2.5L and 3L head gaskets!

Linky linky

The oild holes are pretty interesting. I swear that the hole was a tan larger on my gaskets. I think I have some 2.5 and 3l gaskets laying around. I'd gunna take a look.
They always look so pretty when there clean

Well, Dan, I looked up some info on the oiling holes you've been wondering about. The 1995-1998 2.54L head gasket is the only one to have the 2 oil holes. Nominal diameter is 2.25mm.

The 1999+ 2.49L head gaskets as well as all three different 3.0L head gaskets have one hole (including the new 3.0L head gasket for ST220 & Mazda 6). Nominal diameter is 3.0mm.

If you figure it out, the difference in hole area isn't much. I think you would have been fine either way.

Dan -
My curiosity is now peaked again. Any possibility of reading the part number on the two hole gasket? It should be near the lower LH corner. Thanks much.

Jeff

2 hole gasket part number on the gasket should be
F73E-6051-BA RH
F73E-6083-BA LH