Contour Enthusiasts Group Archives Forums Modifications Audio Max wattage poll

I would like to poll all willing CEG's with slumping systems to cast a vote of how much wattage their systems are handling.

Maximum wattage
less than 300
300-400
400-500
500-600
600-700
700 and more

2400...

300 . . . barely . . .

Originally posted by Kai:

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300 . . . barely . . .

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ditto, now if i could fix the amp, i could push 600. right now it's 130

I hope you arent giving only 300 watts to anything larger than a 10.

it just dawned upon me that you might not be talking subs.

Fosgate 100x2 the old black ones, bridged running 420x1 into 2-12 inch pioneers, then 45x4 running from my Exelon HU into the 4 pioneer 6x8 3-ways in the doors. I likes the sound. Not the best setup but IMHO the SQ kicks arse.

If into max power, i'm currently running about 4000watts max. So about 2000wrms. give or take a few

In reply to:

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I hope you arent giving only 300 watts to anything larger than a 10.

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whys that, Under powering a sub won't hurt it. Its the gain happy people that harm the sub

besides, I hav one of my bostons running on a 200 watt Jensen (laugh if you want, every time I get the money for the jbl something comes up) And it pounds pretty good for that wattage, and brand of amp.

Originally posted by TheGrimace:

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I hope you arent giving only 300 watts to anything larger than a 10.

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And why is that? In most cases anything more isn't really necessary. Unless you are going for pure SPL and need the extra power it's useless. I'm sending about 300W to my PB15 and hit very respectable SPL numbers, along with having almost perfect SQ from it. I was at one point only sendin 180W (MAX) to the same sub and it still got alot of respect from people.

As long as it is clean power you shouldn't hurt the sub at all, its distortion/clipping that kills vc's

1100 rms Just from My Memphis 1000-D

oh yeah,,I was sending 160 watts to my sub, although its Honkey's 10 " mini-me sub. It was plenty,,now the Alpine amp is upwards of 500 watts I think,,,,100 watts per channel I am sending to the comps...thru a Mc

Originally posted by FFE:

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In reply to:

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I hope you arent giving only 300 watts to anything larger than a 10.

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whys that, Under powering a sub won't hurt it. Its the gain happy people that harm the sub

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You took the words right out of my mouth... literally

1000w RMS: Soundstream Rubicon604 running mids/highs at 75wx4 and Soundstream Class A 6.0 at 2ohm mono running 2 12s.

I knew I heard that some were before. It poped in to my head after reading the 300 watt comment

Nakamichi PA1002 (100x2 = 200W)
Nakamichi PA504 (50x4 = 200W)

400W Total

Originally posted by Champagne96GL:

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As long as it is clean power you shouldn't hurt the sub at all, its distortion/clipping that kills vc's

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Close....clipping allows the amp to produce 2x it rated power, if the sub is a 500w sub, and you send it 250w from an amp that is fully clipped, it will be fine.

A speaker will play any signal you provide without hesitation regardless of whether it is distortion, a sine wave, a square wave, etc. As long as you sub can handle the power, there will not be an issue.

Trapps,,,where is the sub, and the rack, whats it made of?

I'm running 1100 watts RMS.
Max wattage means nothing in the real world.

At this time, I'm running 2,280 watts RMS. However, with time that will change.

Underpowering subs tends to make them play very loose. This is fine if you intend on listening to rap. If you listen to rock or even techno underpowering a sub will make your low tones sloppy and it wont sound very good.

There is nothing wrong with low power systems, underpowering isnt good. Bridging is bad.

Originally posted by TheGrimace:

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Underpowering subs tends to make them play very loose. This is fine if you intend on listening to rap. If you listen to rock or even techno underpowering a sub will make your low tones sloppy and it wont sound very good.

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Not at all true.

Originally posted by TheGrimace:

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There is nothing wrong with low power systems

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true

In reply to:

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underpowering isnt good. Bridging is bad.

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Both statements are false. The amount of power just determines how loud your system can get.

ive got 450 times 2 continuous at home ATI, car audio sucks nuts.

i'm powering some jensen 10"s,,, go ahead and laugh, but you can get better sounding for a freeeeee system, it's really not too bad in the car, outside it only shakes things a little.

Originally posted by contour se driver:

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ive got 450 times 2 continuous at home ATI, car audio sucks nuts.

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Please elaborate how you spending a lot on a home amp makes car audio suck "nuts"?

Dave... crackin' down on the noobs Good show chief!

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ive got 450 times 2 continuous at home ATI, car audio sucks nuts.

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Yeah I wanna know.

Also, I had goobs of power and great sound at home, but with a little luck, the car sounds pretty good....Where you not happy with your car stuff?

I guess I should have put 300 watts RMS that I'm running. And not just to the sub, I'm talking total wattage, including front speakers. The sub gets about 135 watts, if you want to know. It's an 8, and is plenty for me.

400w RMS (dunno about peak/max as it's a useless measure). I'm using a single 4ch amp with 80x2 for my components up front and the rear channels bridged for 240x1 driving my rear deck subs.

The sub was out during pic; it sits in a leather covered sealed box between the amps. Th amp rack is also leather covered.

Mark

ooh total... should be around 330 watts, probably closer to 300. max equals 350 watts, for now.

About 1270 rms I don't use max ratings.

xtant 603x 3 channel running 75x2 to front and ~600 @1 ohm to the subs. sq is my middle name.

My four channel amp says max watt 300 but in reality I am getting 35X4 totalling 140. my sub ame 75X2 bridged giving 150 is really only giving maybe 100 since I nearly fried the enternals. so that is 140 + 1== =240 undistorted sound into 4ohms.

most figures do not mention the ohm rating but or real world wattages based on actual voltage. So I guess I am getting 240 at 14v and probably 200 at 12 volts.

If every one keeps on adding up what is printed on the box then no one really know what kind of wattage they are getting.

Also are those figures with or without the car running, i.e.: battery or alternator power, voltage, that is the question?

I still contest that bridging will dirty up your signal. Feel free to argue but you can't win.

Originally posted by TheGrimace:

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I still contest that bridging will dirty up your signal. Feel free to argue but you can't win.

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Why? I'm not saying you are wrong, I just don't know and am curious.

Originally posted by TheGrimace:

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I still contest that bridging will dirty up your signal. Feel free to argue but you can't win.

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Hard to argue with someone who doesn't know what they're talking about.

Generally, running an amp in bridged mode will increase the THD and amount of heat generated. Will the increase in distortion be measurable by scientific instruments? Yes. Will the increase in distortion be detectable by human ears? No.

BTW, 99.99999% of signals will have some level of distortion in them. So, I guess we're all running "dirty" signals.

Originally posted by TheGrimace:

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I still contest that bridging will dirty up your signal. Feel free to argue but you can't win.

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It will double THD to a level that is still not audible, halve the damping factor which is virtually meaningless, and increase the power substantially. I guess I don't see the disadvantage. Go ahead, now its your turn....bring what you've got, because so far it hasn't been much.

brrrooommm
brroommmm

and the mental racing match has begun

who will burn out

who will crash out

is this and illegal street racing post?

Originally posted by contour se driver:

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ive got 450 times 2 continuous at home ATI, car audio sucks nuts.

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I've got 2x481w rms continuous at 20Hz plus 5x90w rms in my home - big deal. But I spend far more time in my car where it is far more challengine to design a good system.

40x4 max. It makes it easier when you're too poor to have an amp

Sorry to take soo long. I'm not a noob by the way, i just never really post anything. Spending money on hame doesnt make car audio suck. It is the fact that a 5k home setup will most likely sound better then a 10k setup in a car. I recently added basslink to my tour and it sucks nut compared to my home stereo. Yes, i have been spoiled, but i have NEVER heard ANYTHING from car come even close.

I get sick and tired of hearing the shops say "It's the box, it's not tuned" or "this box wasnt built for this sub". I recently listened to a JL audio ws7 whatever one. It's their flat cone that takes almost a 1000 watts. The sales guy told me it was the box that is for that sub. A 1000 dollar sub only sounded like as*. I've heard 8's that drop deaper then that thing. Yup i'm talking about sunfire. Name one sub that will compete with that with amp for the exact same price.

So i say car audio sucks nuts. I've heard the Focal 1000 dollar setup which sounded like as*. With speakers sound like trash, it is really difficult to tell whether the amp, or even head units are sounding like crap. It just amazes me that a person could buy so much cheap wattage and crappy sound that it adds up to more what a decent home stereo could sound like. Oh and dont even mention Mark Levinson in the lexus, a low end cd player from those guys cost 6k alone. Do you really thing they put 20-30k worth of audio in that thing?

So, i say car audio sucks nuts.

Originally posted by contour se driver:

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I get sick and tired of hearing the shops say "It's the box, it's not tuned" or "this box wasnt built for this sub".

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This is why i build my own boxes.

I have built all my own boxes. You can go pretty much all-out on building your own box (just wood), and still stay under $50. I use particle board (MDF not available 'round here) with wood glued butt joints, small corner reinforcements, and double-caulk the insides for the final seal. It's easy! Takes me about 1 day. The only thing I can't seem to master is the outside finish. Carpeting's the easiest by far, but those damn corners always seem to not like me.

I know I'm blabbering, but I just can't get over how shops can charge people $200-$300 for boxes , when if you really think about it, the materials cost about $25-$30. Kind of like CD's, the only cost about $0.10 to make, I heard.

I'll shut up now, sorry guys.

Originally posted by contour se driver:

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Sorry to take soo long. I'm not a noob by the way, i just never really post anything. Spending money on hame doesnt make car audio suck. It is the fact that a 5k home setup will most likely sound better then a 10k setup in a car. I recently added basslink to my tour and it sucks nut compared to my home stereo. Yes, i have been spoiled, but i have NEVER heard ANYTHING from car come even close.

I get sick and tired of hearing the shops say "It's the box, it's not tuned" or "this box wasnt built for this sub". I recently listened to a JL audio ws7 whatever one. It's their flat cone that takes almost a 1000 watts. The sales guy told me it was the box that is for that sub. A 1000 dollar sub only sounded like as*. I've heard 8's that drop deaper then that thing. Yup i'm talking about sunfire. Name one sub that will compete with that with amp for the exact same price.

So i say car audio sucks nuts. I've heard the Focal 1000 dollar setup which sounded like as*. With speakers sound like trash, it is really difficult to tell whether the amp, or even head units are sounding like crap. It just amazes me that a person could buy so much cheap wattage and crappy sound that it adds up to more what a decent home stereo could sound like. Oh and dont even mention Mark Levinson in the lexus, a low end cd player from those guys cost 6k alone. Do you really thing they put 20-30k worth of audio in that thing?

So, i say car audio sucks nuts.

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Congratulations on one of the most incoherent posts ever made in this section. I applaud you on your outstanding effort.

If I followed this post correctly, I believe that you said that a Sunfire 8" sub will outperform a JL Audio W7. To this I say BS. The W7, although a bit too much money, is an absolutely outstanding subwoofer. It has more excursion and MUCH more powerhandling than the Carver, not to mention one of the lowest distortion levels of any sub on the market. With all of that said, it also has almost unmeasureable power compression. The Sunfire was an interesting design to say the least. Carver does have a reputation of doing things different. In this case, he decided to sacrifice effeciency in order to have low bass and small enclosure size (much like nearly every car subwoofer on the market). He made up for the lack of effeciency with a lot of power (the 2500w are greatly exaggerated btw) as bench tests have shown a rating of about 500w.

Did you know that a top end amp manufacture accepted a challenge to try to identify their refereance 30k amplifier against a middle of the road car amplifier? The company would have been able to take home 45k if they could hear the difference. They failed miserably.

Granted the car audio environment is far from ideal, but it is possible to get excellent sound. In your case, you bought a very low end Infinity product and you are dissappointed, and I'm not surprised.

The only thing I can think of that has a bigger markup than high end car audio is audiophool home audio.

Do you also spend a lot on high-end interconnects and speaker wire?

yea but what about the cost of the R/D that was necesary to determine the type of driver to be matched to the kind of box used.

Originally posted by contour_phoenix_when:

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yea bizest but what about the cost of the R/D that was necesary to determine the type of driver to be matched to the kind of box used.

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I'm not sure what you are saying. Can you clarify that?

Can we really assign a cost to the design of a box.

Yes most manufactures would state.

"Carver does have a reputation of doing things different. In this case, he decided to sacrifice effeciency in order to have low bass and small enclosure size (much like nearly every car subwoofer on the market). He made up for the lack of effeciency with a lot of power (the 2500w are greatly exaggerated btw) as bench tests have shown a rating of about 500w.

Did you know that a top end amp manufacture accepted a challenge to try to identify their refereance 30k amplifier against a middle of the road car amplifier? The company would have been able to take home 45k if they could hear the difference. They failed miserably."


HAHAHAHA. Show me 1 sub that will play 18hz the way sunfire does. Every car sub maker on the market?? HAHAHAHA, thats a joke. i have NEVER EVER heard any car audio come close to home. NONE. I have perfect hearing, a 30k amp will dominate a 500 dollar car amp i guarentee it. Try speaking from experience, i have heard 80k speakers not including the rest of the system. The Sunfire plays bass deeper then the ws7, JL audio is a joke from what i heard too. I would never put that crap in a serious car setup.

sounds like to me you have never heard true bass.

Originally posted by APT CSVT:

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Originally posted by contour se driver:

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ive got 450 times 2 continuous at home ATI, car audio sucks nuts.

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I've got 2x481w rms continuous at 20Hz plus 5x90w rms in my home - big deal. But I spend far more time in my car where it is far more challengine to design a good system.

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What amp? I forgot to mention this is in 8 ohms, my speakers are 4 ohm, so how much is it now? Obvious you have some kind of receiver which isnt as high current. Same as your amp?

MUHAHAHAHAH.

Smile.

Originally posted by cthomp21:

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Originally posted by TheGrimace:

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I still contest that bridging will dirty up your signal. Feel free to argue but you can't win.

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Hard to argue with someone who doesn't know what they're talking about.

Generally, running an amp in bridged mode will increase the THD and amount of heat generated. Will the increase in distortion be measurable by scientific instruments? Yes. Will the increase in distortion be detectable by human ears? No.

BTW, 99.99999% of signals will have some level of distortion in them. So, I guess we're all running "dirty" signals.

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My ATI does sound a tick worse in bridged mode. But you didn't mention what amp you are speaking of. Mcintosh quotes no difference in bridge mode. As far as distortion goes about every amp amplifies the signal to a much higher level then it will cut the tops and bottoms off then do it agin. Why do you think there are stages?

Originally posted by contour se driver:

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Originally posted by cthomp21:

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Originally posted by TheGrimace:

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I still contest that bridging will dirty up your signal. Feel free to argue but you can't win.

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Hard to argue with someone who doesn't know what they're talking about.

Generally, running an amp in bridged mode will increase the THD and amount of heat generated. Will the increase in distortion be measurable by scientific instruments? Yes. Will the increase in distortion be detectable by human ears? No.

BTW, 99.99999% of signals will have some level of distortion in them. So, I guess we're all running "dirty" signals.

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My ATI does sound a tick worse in bridged mode. But you didn't mention what amp you are speaking of. Mcintosh quotes no difference in bridge mode. As far as distortion goes about every amp amplifies the signal to a much higher level then it will cut the tops and bottoms off then do it agin. Why do you think there are stages?

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First, you need to read up on what bridging actually is. You're confusing it with clipping (more hints you have no idea what you're talking about).

The amount of misinformation, half-truths, and blatant false information in your posts hurts my head so much that I need to go to sleep now...

Originally posted by contour se driver:

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I have perfect hearing

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Yeah? Well I have an 18 inch penis. Isn't dreamland great?!!

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HAHAHAHA. Show me 1 sub that will play 18hz the way sunfire does.

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Adire Tumult
Adire Brahma
JL Audio W7
Resonant Engineering XXX
Blueprint 1803
Blueprint 1503
Aura 1808
Aura NRT 18-8
Seismic 8196
Cerwin Vega Stroker 12,15, and 18
Elemental Designs A-Series
SVS subs
Stryke AV15 and AV12
Stryke HE15
Stryke UE-15

The Tumult and UE-15 are both 15" drivers, meaning they have clost to 4x the cone area as the little Carver sub. The Sd (cone area) and Vd (volume of displacement) are two of the more important specs when it comes to figuring out the peak SPL at a given freq/power input. A Tumult can move approximately 6 times as much air as the Carver and handle more power....

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Every car sub maker on the market?? HAHAHAHA, thats a joke. i have NEVER EVER heard any car audio come close to home. NONE.

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There are 8" midbass speakers that will go flat to 18 hz in a car. You seem to be ignoring the effects of the vehicles transfer function. I'm not foolish enough to say all subs can outperform the Sunfire, but there are certainly a lot of subs that can.

Have you ever seen or listened to a Krell Master Reference Subwoofer? If you don't know about it, it is a 28,000 sub with dual 15 woofers. It just so happens to use a slightly worse version of the Stryke HE15 mentioned earlier. The Stryke has higher power handling, better basket, and quite a bit more excursion. While the Sunfire does well in head to head test with 1000.00 consumer subs, it simply gets outclassed by high end equipment and DIY subs.

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I have perfect hearing, a 30k amp will dominate a 500 dollar car amp i guarentee it.

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Define perfect hearing? You may be able to guarentee it, but I would take your guarentee with a grain of salt. Where do you live? If you are on the east coast, I bet Richard Clark (the amp challenge guy) would be glad to give you 10,000 if you can hear the differece between that 30k amp and a 400.00 car audio amp. The challenge is ongoing and no golden eared audiophool has won the challenge yet.

What is your guarentee, what are the ramifications of your guarentee when you fail miserably?

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Try speaking from experience

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How do you know my experience? Try speaking from your mouth rather than your ass, the breath from down there is killing us.

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i have heard 80k speakers not including the rest of the system.

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Well in that case, how can I sit here and argue with you... You listened to expensive speakers, you must be a real audio guru. I have listened to speakers costing 2x that, but considering that has nothing to do with the conversation, neither of us should give a flying fornication.

In reply to:

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The Sunfire plays bass deeper then the ws7, JL audio is a joke from what i heard too. I would never put that crap in a serious car setup.

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Which W7? What kind of box? In car or anechoic?

JL Audio is no joke. They may be overpriced, IMO, but there is no question they are among the top mfg in the business. In fact, I'm assuming your post has to be the joke to rile us up. The utter arrogance and ignorance displayed in your thread is beyond compare.

Try to stick to something you know, not something you read one time a few years ago.

Originally posted by contour se driver:

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Originally posted by cthomp21:

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Originally posted by TheGrimace:

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I still contest that bridging will dirty up your signal. Feel free to argue but you can't win.

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Hard to argue with someone who doesn't know what they're talking about.

Generally, running an amp in bridged mode will increase the THD and amount of heat generated. Will the increase in distortion be measurable by scientific instruments? Yes. Will the increase in distortion be detectable by human ears? No.

BTW, 99.99999% of signals will have some level of distortion in them. So, I guess we're all running "dirty" signals.

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My ATI does sound a tick worse in bridged mode. But you didn't mention what amp you are speaking of. Mcintosh quotes no difference in bridge mode. As far as distortion goes about every amp amplifies the signal to a much higher level then it will cut the tops and bottoms off then do it agin. Why do you think there are stages?

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I have no idea what you just said, but I can comment on McIntosh's technology. They use an autoformer on the output to make sure that you get full power with low impedance loads, without stressing the amp. Autoformers are pretty common in the proaudio scene, but relatively unused in the other audio fields.

Originally posted by contour se driver:

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Originally posted by APT CSVT:

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Originally posted by contour se driver:

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ive got 450 times 2 continuous at home ATI, car audio sucks nuts.

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I've got 2x481w rms continuous at 20Hz plus 5x90w rms in my home - big deal. But I spend far more time in my car where it is far more challengine to design a good system.

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What amp? I forgot to mention this is in 8 ohms, my speakers are 4 ohm, so how much is it now? Obvious you have some kind of receiver which isnt as high current. Same as your amp?

MUHAHAHAHAH.

Smile.

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He has a Samson amplifier. Not positive about the model number. His main point is no one cares that you have an overpriced ATI amp.

Originally posted by contour_phoenix_when:

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Can we really assign a cost to the design of a box.

Yes most manufactures would state.

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A typical box design for a sub would take very little time to design. It wouldn't add a great deal of cost because of that. Using advanced materials like solid surface counter top material or aluminum could add a great deal of cost.

Thank you cthomp21, someone else is exposing this dnewman or what ever his name is. It's funny cause you always say a name or roll eyeball or something immature. I have yet to do either, you havent read my posts clear enough. To me power handling, excursion, all the other mumbo jumbo you speak means nothing to me. What does is a small sub, preferably a 10 will do 20hz as loud as 60 hz. The challange was find a sub like sunfire, aka an 8, that will play as low as loud.

you said there was, now from who? Also what speaker manufacturer has a set that cost 160k? The most expensive i know about cost 250k Pulling figures and lies out of thin air means nothing to me. 20hz bass does. JL audio is a joke. I have listened to it and am not impressed. I still think sunfire plays deaper. Which was my whole point. Till you give me a name, and a shop, i will hold your words as make believe. Everything you have said can be read out of a mgazine, try saying something for yourself.

Just beacuse you can,t afford it doesnt make it overpriced, if you know anything about audio you will know that any ati is a very good deal, but you have already exposed yourself numerous times. I just wonder what other misimformed monkeys will believe your thin air language. I'm just trying to help you be a better consumer. Samson? i found them, try not to brag for your buddy. As i said before watts are cheap, car audio sucks nuts.

Arguing is pointless, its all in your own matter of opinion, some do car audio, some do home audio, some do both, I do both and do not have all that expensive Shizit and I love my stereo systems damn near the best I have heard in my area, in my home and my car. along with my friend, who has been into the business for 9 years. Flame if you want I won't listen

hope u guys know, wattage doesn't mean squad. absolute NOTHING!! ask anyone that truly knows and is in the business...

Originally posted by Specialist23:

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hope u guys know, wattage doesn't mean squad. absolute NOTHING!! ask anyone that truly knows and is in the business...

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Since when? I guess if you're running .05 watts to a speaker, it'll still sound amazing. Or with just 10watts rms, someone could hit 170db with a single 10" sub.

Originally posted by contour se driver:

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Thank you cthomp21, someone else is exposing this dnewman or what ever his name is.

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He was exposing you, not me.

In reply to:

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It's funny cause you always say a name or roll eyeball or something immature. I have yet to do either, you havent read my posts clear enough.

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I think we all tried to read them. Perhaps you should try being more clear.

In reply to:

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To me power handling, excursion, all the other mumbo jumbo you speak means nothing to me.

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That fact that physics means nothing to you doesn't surprise me.

In reply to:

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What does is a small sub, preferably a 10 will do 20hz as loud as 60 hz. The challange was find a sub like sunfire, aka an 8, that will play as low as loud.

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Again, I don't quite follow. If you are looking for an 8 that will produce the same levels as the Sunfire, I could come up with one or two.

Since you mention an 8", I will assume that you are referring to the original Sunfire sub that is now dubbed the "Sunfire Junior". It specs indicate a FR of 25-100hz +0-3 dB at 108 dB in room response.

Based on typical home room gain of a couple of dB in the lowest octave, I would guess that it has an anechoic F3 of 28-30 hz. The room gain allows the F3 to drop to 25 hz. Since it is a PR design, it will show a third order rolloff below the tuning freq which means that down at 18 hz, it could be off by 10-12 dB from the 108 it is producing over the rest of the pass band.

In reply to:

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you said there was, now from who?

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I will email Thilo from TC Sounds to get a list of the other mfgs who buy his 8" sub. I may not be at liberty to say but I will make an attempt.

Let me get some clarification before we go on with this. Are you asking for me to get an 8" sub that will fit in a 9" cube and reach 108 dB in a room at 25 hz? Or are you challenging me to find a sub, in general, that will outperform the Sunfire?

In reply to:

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Also what speaker manufacturer has a set that cost 160k?

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Genesis Advanced Technologies. Genesis 1. It looks like the latest iteration is selling for 135k, not 160k.

In reply to:

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The most expensive i know about cost 250k Pulling figures and lies out of thin air means nothing to me.

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Again, no one cares. I don't care about the genesis 1.1, I don't care about 250k speakers, I don't care if you spent 15.00. It has no relevance and doesn't do anything to back up one of your arguments.

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20hz bass does.

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Then get away from Sunfire. Why would you want a miniscule 8" sub that only produces 108 dB in room producing your subbass? I can understand if the spouse doesn't want to see it, but if you are looking for the ultimate performance, the Sunfire is not what you should be looking at.

In reply to:

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JL audio is a joke.

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And you are a tool...I can't believe you actually have me here defending JL. I like to tell everyone to buy other equipment for cheaper, but you are such an ass that I am forced to defend them just in case a newbie decides to follow you filthy BS that you are spreading.

In reply to:

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I have listened to it and am not impressed.

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Heard what? A sub? W0, W1, W3, W4, W6, W6v2, W7? Which one, which size? What kind of car? What kind of box Sealed, ported, BP, TL, IB, aperiodic membrane?

In reply to:

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I still think sunfire plays deaper. Which was my whole point.

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I gave you a list of 10-15 subs that will play deeper at nearly 2x the output of the sunfire. You didn't mention a size restriction originally, which is why I didn't mention an 8" because of the inherent bass limitations of an 8.

In reply to:

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Till you give me a name, and a shop, i will hold your words as make believe. Everything you have said can be read out of a mgazine, try saying something for yourself.

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...and I will hold you entire existence as make believe until you come up with a well thought out, coherent response. Everything I said could be read out of books, magazines, white papers, internet sources, mailing lists, forums, etc....you are absolutely right in your assessment and that may be the difference between you and me. You fall for marketing BS, whereas I research the products, the technology, design, materials and mfgs of the products.

In reply to:

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Just beacuse you can,t afford it doesnt make it overpriced,

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How do you know what I can afford? It just so happens that I can't afford it right now. We have a bit too many bills to afford such luxuries at this point.

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if you know anything about audio you will know that any ati is a very good deal

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I do know a little about Audio and ATI can only be considered a "value" because there are more expensive amps out there. There are also cheaper amps that will provide the same type of performance.

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but you have already exposed yourself numerous times.

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Lets keep your fantasies out of the argument.

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I just wonder what other misimformed monkeys will believe your thin air language.

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My thin air language can actually be understood. It doesn't appear that you can put together a rational thought. I can only assume that Everett is in another country and English is your second language?

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I'm just trying to help you be a better consumer.

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In what way has any of your misinformed ramblings made anyone a better consumer? The only thing I can hope is that some other under-educated troll will learn from your mistakes and purchase "hooked on phonics."

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Samson? i found them, try not to brag for your buddy. As i said before watts are cheap, car audio sucks nuts.

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I wasn't bragging for my "buddy", you asked what king of amplifier he was using. I answered your question.

If you don't like car audio, why bother posting here? It's not like you have any valuable information, or a valid point, so why don't you go away?

Originally posted by Specialist23:

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hope u guys know, wattage doesn't mean squad. absolute NOTHING!! ask anyone that truly knows and is in the business...

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I think I know where you are going with this, and I think I may agree to a certain extent. But, can you tell me what your thoughts are?

I think that Contour SE Driver is actually anothre user name for dnewma04. There is no way anybody could really be that retarded. Seriously, if you are real, shut up and liste to what Dave tells you, he knows more about this crap than you will ever hope to. He doesn't have your obvious litterature knowledge either, he is a DIY audio guru and can think up absolutely perfect system combinations in his sleep. In fact many people here owe him a huge debt of gratitude as he found some of the best equipment any of us have ever seen over the years. No suggestion he has given to date has hed poor results either. He actually knows how to read the specifications of a speaker and in his head determine what other equipment would best match up to it.

As for the statement "car audio sucks nutz"

Obviously a car is not the greatest place to have a stereo system compared to a house. Here's a question for you though, can you take your home system with you on a 4 hour trip? Would cruising be as fun with an 8track instead of a really good sound system? Sounds to me like you sit at home all day listening to Celine Dion with youtr little 8" while everyone else is out with thier friends driving around in thier cars with stereos that "suck nuts" Meeting new people and making new friends. Try it, you may realise it's actually not that bad

Originally posted by Honkeytonk Monkey:

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I think that Contour SE Driver is actually anothre user name for dnewma04. There is no way anybody could really be that retarded. Seriously, if you are real, shut up and liste to what Dave tells you, he knows more about this crap than you will ever hope to. He doesn't have your obvious litterature knowledge either, he is a DIY audio guru and can think up absolutely perfect system combinations in his sleep. In fact many people here owe him a huge debt of gratitude as he found some of the best equipment any of us have ever seen over the years. No suggestion he has given to date has hed poor results either. He actually knows how to read the specifications of a speaker and in his head determine what other equipment would best match up to it.

As for the statement "car audio sucks nutz"

Obviously a car is not the greatest place to have a stereo system compared to a house. Here's a question for you though, can you take your home system with you on a 4 hour trip? Would cruising be as fun with an 8track instead of a really good sound system? Sounds to me like you sit at home all day listening to Celine Dion with youtr little 8" while everyone else is out with thier friends driving around in thier cars with stereos that "suck nuts" Meeting new people and making new friends. Try it, you may realise it's actually not that bad

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You defend him but look above, wattage isnt everything. Ever heard of sensitivity in a speaker? Also, how about a high current amp? You can have current without voltage, but you cannot have voltage without amps. Anyone in electronics\electric will know the pie chart, watts equal current time voltage. High voltage will not drive a low impedance and low sensitive speaker. High current will.

Also dave whatever said he listend to speakers costing twice as much as 80k, lets see thats, ummmm 160, but then he says they cost 135 and tried correcting me on his lack of reading skills. You guys are soo funny, car audio does suck nuts, when comparing to home audio, get over it. Dave know more? HAHAHAHA, he hasnt shown that he does. Look at his posts, has a hard time even knowing the basics. DYI of trash is what it is. You guys. If you losers eee me on the street dont wave, i dont want to know idiots.

I am not sure if this argument is Fellini-esque, or sad like Bergmanesque, or what...it is surreal.

Dude, we have no knowledge of you...Dave has been a respected member of the audio world and is respected in many audio boards as well,,,and I never saw anyone argue his audio wisdom. No one here follows blindly either, we look around and try to compare, and his counsel always comes up to be right on the money.

The issue about watts not being important is irrelevant, and what was meant is that you can have a nice system with tubes, with I hope more than 90dB efficiency...Its just a matter of objectives.

Originally posted by contour se driver:

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You defend him but look above, wattage isnt everything. Ever heard of sensitivity in a speaker? Also, how about a high current amp? You can have current without voltage, but you cannot have voltage without amps. Anyone in electronics\electric will know the pie chart, watts equal current time voltage. High voltage will not drive a low impedance and low sensitive speaker. High current will.

Also dave whatever said he listend to speakers costing twice as much as 80k, lets see thats, ummmm 160, but then he says they cost 135 and tried correcting me on his lack of reading skills. You guys are soo funny, car audio does suck nuts, when comparing to home audio, get over it. Dave know more? HAHAHAHA, he hasnt shown that he does. Look at his posts, has a hard time even knowing the basics. DYI of trash is what it is. You guys. If you losers eee me on the street dont wave, i dont want to know idiots.

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I have never seen a bigger dumba$$ post on this board. EVER.

You almost seem to have a grasp on the basic principles of audio (car or home), but you fall flat on your face when trying to making any relevant point or argument.

I would suggest putting down the marketing trash you're reading from the audiophile magazines, reading up on good sources such as the Loudspeaker Design Cookbook and other non-marketing trash (surprisingly, even your much loathed JL Audio actually has some good info on their website in the "Tutorial" section). You're really just making a fool of yourself over, and over, and over again...

BTW, it's DIY as in "Do It Yourself". As in not listening to the marketing hype and garbage that companies like to spew to get you to buy their overpriced and underperforming equipment.

The Genesis 1 was 160k when I heard it back in 1992. The company went out of business for a few years and came back last year. The current iteration of the Genesis 1 is 135k.

Anyway,

I think it has become clear that this guy is a hoax. I will respond to anything he posts, but purely for the entertainment of the rest of the group.

Originally posted by dnewma04:

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I will respond to anything he posts, but purely for the entertainment of the rest of the group.

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Yeah!!! [gets popcorn] munch... munch... munch...

2580 Watts, 2400 in my sub alone. Then 180 in the doors.
^
I put my Klipsch RSW-15 in the trunk with an inverter :-) Talk about bass!

Originally posted by dnewma04:

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The Genesis 1 was 160k when I heard it back in 1992. The company went out of business for a few years and came back last year. The current iteration of the Genesis 1 is 135k.

Anyway,

I think it has become clear that this guy is a hoax. I will respond to anything he posts, but purely for the entertainment of the rest of the group.

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Clearly i am a hoax huh? lets see, i can back up everything i am saying, I am not magazine racing like the rest of you.

I will say the sunire, the original true sub, has deeper bass then even the 12 inch top model sub from jl. There is no way to dispute that. To me loudness and excursion mean nothing if it cant do 20hz. You said something about cerwin vega, that brand is a serious joke. their stoker long ago took a db win, but at only 40hz. I have heard 6.5 inchers drop deeper then that, Joseph audio for one. Ever heard of N.E.A.R.? they used to use 2 5.25 to hit 20.

I find it hilarious, no one has experience yet you jump on the post like your an engineer. I would advise the two of you to actually go out and listen to some home audio, also try REL, about all their subs are around 10 inch and play 20. True i have been spoiled by home audio to never really enjoy car, but if someone in the northwest doesnt believe me, you can listen to my home then ill take you to all the local stores to back up what im saying.

Car audio cannot compete with home. Even focal, a sister company of JM Lab, doesnt use the same drivers. Focal is built to a lesser quality. Also i knew an owner of a audio shop, he told me he gave up car cause, it sucks nuts.

please reread my previous post and take a hint.

Originally posted by geoffct:

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2580 Watts, 2400 in my sub alone. Then 180 in the doors.
^
I put my Klipsch RSW-15 in the trunk with an inverter :-) Talk about bass!

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Quite impressive. You got one sub or 2?

Originally posted by contour se driver:

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To me loudness and excursion mean nothing if it cant do 20hz.

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Hey genius, even headphones can play a 20Hz signal. Granted the output at that frequency would be very low, but it's still possible.

Your posts still make absolutely no sense.

Originally posted by contour se driver:

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Originally posted by dnewma04:

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The Genesis 1 was 160k when I heard it back in 1992. The company went out of business for a few years and came back last year. The current iteration of the Genesis 1 is 135k.

Anyway,

I think it has become clear that this guy is a hoax. I will respond to anything he posts, but purely for the entertainment of the rest of the group.

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Clearly i am a hoax huh? lets see, i can back up everything i am saying, I am not magazine racing like the rest of you.[/qb]

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Please start to do so. We are anxiously awaiting something other then useless drivel.

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I will say the sunire, the original true sub, has deeper bass then even the 12 inch top model sub from jl.

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And you say this with no technological knowledge of either. Good for you, you once again prove your blatant disregard for the laws of physics.

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There is no way to dispute that. To me loudness and excursion mean nothing if it cant do 20hz.

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I have a pair of headphones that will produce 20 hz. If loudness means nothing, you can get virtually any driver to produce 20 hz. I can absolutely dispute your claims that a sunfire goes lower than the JL. The original Sunfire True Subwoofer, now dubbed the Sunfire JR, has an in room F3 of 25 hz. (F3 is the point where the response of the driver drops 3 dB and is pretty well regarded as the low end output of a given driver/enclosure alignment) A JL Audio 12W7 (their top of the line 12) in a 97 liter enclosure tuned to 20 hz gives it an anechoic (neutral environment with no transfer function) F3 of 21 hz. At the same time it is producing 114 dB with the same power that is allowing the Sunfire to reach 108 dB in room with a much easier 25 hz freq to reproduce. If the sunfire had the mechanical/thermal abilities to handle it, it would take 4800w to equal the output of the JL with 1200w. That doesn't even take into account that the power compression levels of the JL are virtually zero and would be noticeable with the Sunfire based on TC Sound's other designs.

Here is another thing you may find interesting (but will probably dismiss as merely physics). In order for a 12" driver to produce 100 dB at 20 hz, it would have to move 17mm one way. In order for an 8" to produce 100dB at 20 hz, it would have to move 41mm one way. For a 5" to play 20 hz at 100 dB, it would need to be able to move 82mm one way. This was assuming a sealed box. A ported box can change things drastically.

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You said something about cerwin vega, that brand is a serious joke. their stoker long ago took a db win, but at only 40hz. I have heard 6.5 inchers drop deeper then that, Joseph audio for one. Ever heard of N.E.A.R.? they used to use 2 5.25 to hit 20.

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CV has been a serious player in the pro-audio industry for a few decades. The original Strokers were playing 20 hz bass 2 decades ago. They aren't the class of the car audio world, but the strokers have made a major impact in every application they have been marketed in. I never mentioned SPL comps. These competition have no intention of preserving musical accuracy. They are meant to see who can get the loudest at any freq below a certain cutoff (most of the organizations use 80 hz or below). Again, your point is irrelevant. At what level are the N.E.A.R. drivers producing 20 hz? Which model are you referring to? I'm sure it would be easy enough to find out the specs.

Like I said earlier, I have headphones that have measureable response down to 20hz (and below).

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I find it hilarious, no one has experience yet you jump on the post like your an engineer.

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I'm not an engineer, I am a hobbyist with 14 years of audio experience, mainly in home audio.

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I would advise the two of you to actually go out and listen to some home audio, also try REL, about all their subs are around 10 inch and play 20.

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I have listened to, built, designed countless speakers using anything from low end drivers to some of the best on the market. No one is arguing that a given driver is producing 20 hz, yet you are dismissing car audio products, in general, as not being able to produce 20 hz signals.

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True i have been spoiled by home audio to never really enjoy car, but if someone in the northwest doesnt believe me, you can listen to my home then ill take you to all the local stores to back up what im saying.

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Great! I, too, have been spoiled by home audio. There are some excellent products in all forms of audio. I just would never be so naive to dismiss one form of audio as "sucking nuts" because it would make me sound like a uneducated, naive, immature 15 year old.

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Car audio cannot compete with home. Even focal, a sister company of JM Lab, doesnt use the same drivers. Focal is built to a lesser quality. Also i knew an owner of a audio shop, he told me he gave up car cause, it sucks nuts.

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The home environment has obvious advantageous with issues like dealing with reflections, proper imaging and sound staging. But car audio has serious advantageous in bass reproduction. Far more money is being spent on car audio in recent years than there is money being spent on home audio speaker development. Luckily for home audio, some of the technology is being incorporated into the home audio field. For example, Adire Audio's XBL^2 motor design shows a great deal of promise in home audio apps even though it was introduced on the Brahma car audio subwoofer.

Focal's Audiom series of drivers were derived from the JMLabs Utopia drivers and I can promise they are made with the same quality as the JMlabs. Focal has a few different series of drivers ranging from affordable to elite.

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please reread my previous post and take a hint.

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I have read all I need to know to determine that you have pretty limited technical experience and don't have the intellectual capacity to back up any of your claims with facts.

The Klipsch sub that was mentioned has 650w with an amplifier that is capable of 2400w bursts. This is equivalent to quoting max power.

It's interesting that Klipsch says that their 15" sub with a 15" PR has more surface area than a 21" conventional subwoofer.

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The RSW-15 surpasses the performance of a conventional 21" single-driver subwoofer through intelligent engineering. Pairing a heart-throbbing 15" rear-firing Cerametallicâ?¢ active driver with a 3-inch voice coil and 30-pound motor assembly with a 15" front-firing passive radiator gives you more surface area than a 21" subwoofer in a much smaller footprint.

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It almost seams like they think that a PR should count as an active radiating surface rather than a resonator. This would be equivalent to counting port area to driver size. I am ashamed of Klipsch for such blatant misinformation.

You should probably consider giving this up man. You are obviously outclassed here. Let it go. You have gone from being seen as wrong/not very knowledgeable to just plain ignorant. You have not backed any argument with fact, just your opinion (which is wrong). Meanwhile Dave has brought specs, references, and technical explanations to his side of the argument. You can't win, it just isn't possible (although it is highly entertaining) This is about the same as watching a Focus race a Twin Turbo Corvette. You feel sorry for the Focus as it is the second slowest car ever built and it's trying it's best to beat a 650hp beast. Do you get what I'm saying? You are the Focus, Dave is the Vette. You lose. It is highly entertaining much like that race would be, but I think it would get boring to watch the Focus get beat down after a few tries. Keep trying though lil' guy

Originally posted by Honkeytonk Monkey:

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You should probably consider giving this up man. You are obviously outclassed here. Let it go. You have gone from being seen as wrong/not very knowledgeable to just plain ignorant. You have not backed any argument with fact, just your opinion (which is wrong). Meanwhile Dave has brought specs, references, and technical explanations to his side of the argument. You can't win, it just isn't possible (although it is highly entertaining) This is about the same as watching a Focus race a Twin Turbo Corvette. You feel sorry for the Focus as it is the second slowest car ever built and it's trying it's best to beat a 650hp beast. Do you get what I'm saying? You are the Focus, Dave is the Vette. You lose. It is highly entertaining much like that race would be, but I think it would get boring to watch the Focus get beat down after a few tries. Keep trying though lil' guy

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see what i mean, the average dumbass jumping in and has no clue, dave i have actually listened to all this stuff i speak of, i know what i heard. the true sub cannot be a junior, it was made before junior was even invented. it has a 8" cone with surrounds making it about 10, as far as excursion goes, it has plenty i believe about 2 inches.
supposedly pushes as much as 3 15's.

whan i listened to that jl sub it does not sound as deep as a sunfire. how can anyone dismiss this?? no one here has taken a listen to these yet you all are talking like you have. what have i said can be proven wrong? for example, the basslink claims 20hz, hahaha thats a joke, it stumbles on 30.

there you go again dave, spewing the obvious, of course ported makes a difference, they can be tuned also, ever notice the golf ball looking dimples in them these days? to reduce chuffing, how about the front baffle? rounded too to prevent port noise. i can say the car crap that i have heard sealed or not is crap compared to home.

did you know some speakers are not built to be sealed? are you familiar with earthquake from car to home. it is written documentation that focal is lesser quality then jm lab so what the hell are you making up?

if anybody in the everett area thinks im telling a tale, take a bass mechanic cd play it at 20hz, store locations are car toys toward the end of everett mall way, and the magnolia just a tick up the street from the mall. car toys has the 12 ws7 and magnolia carries rel and sunfire. pop that disk in and tell me which one sounds deeper then come back here and post what you heard. not loudness but depth of 20hz and compare it to the loudness of 40hz ill bet you the ws7 will drop off. all eq's off bass and treble centered, loudness off.

the sales rep told me this was the box for it. all this i know what im talking about isnt [censored]. i know what i heard and its different from the trash im hearing here from you nonexperienced fools. dave the dumbass, mcintosh for their car amps say in literature that no specs change when bridged, but you say they do, well theres proof. headphones at 20hz, hahaha unless you spent at least 350, it aint happening. all the bass i have ever heard in my life is cheap ass bass. except home audio.

good analogy considering you have no idea on this subject. dave hasnt proven anything, i know what i heard and what i hear at home car audio sucks nuts. teahs spec and references? how about anyone here to actually take the challange and listen for your self. there is 30hz and there is 30hz.

my problem with some car audio, i have heard some trash and thats where it should be, the over amplification of higher frequencies masking the lowers, i have heard this myself. ohh man i couldnt wait to get home to drain out the mess i heard. i have heard 1 car stero with actual good bass in my life the rest was the 40hz and up trash bass. you say i always mention 20hz, thats because thats what impresses me, not 40 which any speaker can do but 20hz. it is very difficult for any speaker to do 20 with the exact same db as 50hz. im saying truly flat, the sunfire was measured down to 18 with i believe +-2 so the junior is not the same.

max wattage, excursion, boxes, etc aside....all else equal it is very hard to find a 10 to do 20hz flat. this has gotten to far too, the original post was me saying home audio will stomp car auido. no matter what you say it will not happen, it will not be any different, home will sound better. i gave a challange now im waiting for volunteers to go listen.

You kids with your big stereos I just replaced my factory radio with a JVC Dignifine, so I'm pushin' a solid 200w max, ~100 or so RMS.

Here's a smiley summary of this thread:

That last ones are me when I tried to follow the discussion!

Dude,,,stop making blanket statements about car audio....and what we know and dont know....I really dont care what you know,,,the problem is that your a pompous A$$ Hole. My Lambda Acoustics sun goes deep enough to reproduce accurately all that I need.

Your talk is just about what someone with boutique speakers would say to someone that has Paradigm or PSB...those should suck nuts compared to the expensive ones?

So if there are drastic differences in Home audio setups,,,whats the big deal having differences between home and car audio anyway....

I don't have time to post anything detailed right now, I can only say that you obviously have never heard a good car audio system, and you have not heard close to the best in home audio subwoofer systems if you consider the sunfire near the top. It will play as loud as 3 15s that are not good subs, but there are a number of 125.00-150.00 15 subs that will have more output.

There are no quality differences between JM Lab and Focal Audiom. You say there is documented differences. Prove it. I will leave it at that.

I can honestly say that you have argued with less knowledge for a longer period of time than just about any other poster I have come across.

Betcha these play lower than your tiny 8" mini, *cough*wussy sized woofer. By the way they are Car Audio Subs


pssst - it plays linear down to 9hz

I go away for a few weeks and all hell breaks loose here, dammit dave clean house!

And whats this about expensive rca's and speaker cable I hear This puppy is wired with lamp cord.

Back to the subject (which one, I dont know) Why do people think that Car Audio Product are just for your car? Oh no, I put my home cables in my car, I am going to hell...

Contour Driver SE- You say you have never heard a good car system. Let me ask you of the ones you have heard, did they ever compete and win a real trophy at a real show? I have sat in hundreds of cars, every owner says they have the BEST system. Most sound average, some down right terrible. But a good system is acheivable in a car. You mention low bass, acoustically cars enhance bass. Some enviroments do not have the same properties resulting in undesired boostings of other frequencies. That is what makes car audio a challenge.

Any one can go buy top dollar components, put'em in their home and *poof* beautiful music. A talened audio nut can do this same thing with their car. It just takes more time and skill.

The guy that dislikes bridging- Please explain, double the power, distortion is still way under 0.1 (unless running the Kmart special) so there's no harm. Personally if you ever had the chance to run one amp per speaker or door (this requires bridging ) You will hear much better stereo seperation and better imaging. Amps that are self bridging (meaning they have no push botton for bridge circuit) often have poor seperation and crosstalk.

So then do you have your gain up all the way to max (250mV) on your non bridged amp with like a 4V preamp output? (I wont start on the proper gain settings, its a pet peeve of mine)

As you noticed i haven't jumped in this debate yet. But I've decided to put in my .02 .

Contour SE driver, have you actually sat in a car with a top notch system? I'm not talking about with expensive equipment, but one that has been set up to drop jaws in competitions? There are a couple of Contour drivers here that have such awsome systems they're in magazines. Try sitting in their cars. You will learn that it's not about what the crap you got in your car, but how've you've set them up. You'll be amazed at how well systems can sound if done right. A lot of people actually rather do car audio setups, than do home audio. Mainly because it's a much greater challenge to accomplish such high standards. Believe it or not, these car audio systems will equal those of home audio.

You're talking about a sub that will play down to 20hz... who cares? It's at the point where our ears will barely hear it. Will you be listening to a track that plays nothing but 20hz all day long? Sure it's nice to know a sub has a low frequency extension, but if it's just bass you're looking for, then it's not really music?

Anyways, try going to a car audio competition, and sit inside some of the top cars. I'm sure you won't be blabbing your mouth away. I've been doing car audio for about 6 years now, and a little bit of home audio. Home audio is a whole lot less challenging. It's still fun to do, but just doesn't erupt my volcano. Dude.. try fixing your hemroid problem before typing. You're making yourself an ass. It was misinformation from people like you that made me spend over 5k on my car audio system, when i realized i could've spend less than 1k, and had it sound even better. Dave is one of them that actually gave me a lot of knowledge to make my car one of the best sounding ones on this puny island called Maui.

Originally posted by KnuKonceptz:

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Betcha these play lower than your tiny 8" mini, *cough*wussy sized woofer. By the way they are Car Audio Subs

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That is one hell of a sub cabinet you have there! What kind of amp is driving that beast?

Again you back your argument saying "the guy in the audio shop said" Well no [censored], he sells the stuff. You really are daft aren't you? You say you listened to the JL sub in and it was better than your sub? Maybe because you own it? Kind of like how some people are convinced the car they own is and always will be the greatest thing ever built. Step into reality man!

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whan i listened to that jl sub it does not sound as deep as a sunfire. how can anyone dismiss this?? no one here has taken a listen to these yet you all are talking like you have. what have i said can be proven wrong? for example, the basslink claims 20hz, hahaha thats a joke, it stumbles on 30.

We can dismiss it because it merely your opinion which right now means about as much to people here as me farting, only my farts aren't as full of [censored] as you. We can't prove you wrong, as even if we did you wouldn't accept our mere "facts" against your opinion. Silly us for trying to educate you right?

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there you go again dave, spewing the obvious, of course ported makes a difference, they can be tuned also, ever notice the golf ball looking dimples in them these days? to reduce chuffing, how about the front baffle? rounded too to prevent port noise. i can say the car crap that i have heard sealed or not is crap compared to home.

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I have a PB15 in a sealed box in the Focus. If you listened to it you would look like a retard if afterwards you calle dit crap. I'll use your own horrible argument against you here. I claim that my PB15 sounds better than anything in the entire universe. You can't say I'm wrong as you never heard it. Until you hear it you must accept my statement as true. That's what you are expecting of us isn't it?

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did you know some speakers are not built to be sealed? are you familiar with earthquake from car to home. it is written documentation that focal is lesser quality then jm lab so what the hell are you making up?

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You speak of Dave spewing the obvious, then make this statement? Can you not hold a thought for over a second? Also, besides what you just wrote, show me where that was written. Seriously, it would be nice to see.

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the sales rep told me this was the box for it. all this i know what im talking about isnt [censored]. i know what i heard and its different from the trash im hearing here from you nonexperienced fools. dave the dumbass, mcintosh for their car amps say in literature that no specs change when bridged, but you say they do, well theres proof. headphones at 20hz, hahaha unless you spent at least 350, it aint happening. all the bass i have ever heard in my life is cheap ass bass. except home audio.

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You call us "nonexperienced" yet all you have for credentials is that you bought a sub and like it. You also note you've heard different subs in different stores. Good for you! So have I, I have also wandered into stereo shops (both home and car audio locations, not just car audio and listened to what I could. I notice a funny thing though. While home audio locations usually have acoustically seperated rooms to listen to the systems without the ambient noise, the locations with the JL subs among others have everything crammed into a wall in an open environment where every sound made from every persom in the room interferes. I love your comparisson method, really accurate! BTW my headphones were $138 CDN and can play 20 HZ (I have a test tone generator on the computer, so yes, I can say it was a 20Hz tone) And I will once again remind you the subwoofer in my car sounds anything but cheap.

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good analogy considering you have no idea on this subject. dave hasnt proven anything, i know what i heard and what i hear at home car audio sucks nuts. teahs spec and references? how about anyone here to actually take the challange and listen for your self. there is 30hz and there is 30hz.

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I am begining to think you may not be a car audio fan... I think you can't read the specs and it's pissing you off so you are falling back on "My hearing is more precise than any testing instruments" which obviously is not even a real argument. And please try to come up with something a little more clever than "sucks nuts". It isn't helping to make you seem any more intelligent. Just a thought

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my problem with some car audio, i have heard some trash and thats where it should be, the over amplification of higher frequencies masking the lowers, i have heard this myself. ohh man i couldnt wait to get home to drain out the mess i heard. i have heard 1 car stero with actual good bass in my life the rest was the 40hz and up trash bass. you say i always mention 20hz, thats because thats what impresses me, not 40 which any speaker can do but 20hz. it is very difficult for any speaker to do 20 with the exact same db as 50hz. im saying truly flat, the sunfire was measured down to 18 with i believe +-2 so the junior is not the same.

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You have heard trash, well hooray, now find some good car setups and listen to them. A well setup system does not have all your listed problems. I am curious though, you seem to think that any bass played above 20Hz is a horrible thing, so what music do you listen to? You may be surprised to know that if you set your crossover higher than 20Hz and hook up some speakers along with your little sub the music becomes more accurate to the original recording (you can now make out people's voices, and things like guitars now make sounds!!!). Now I'm not telling you to set the sub at 600Hz or anything, you can stay at a lower level, but do give it a try!

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max wattage, excursion, boxes, etc aside....all else equal it is very hard to find a 10 to do 20hz flat. this has gotten to far too, the original post was me saying home audio will stomp car auido. no matter what you say it will not happen, it will not be any different, home will sound better. i gave a challange now im waiting for volunteers to go listen.

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Um, no your original post simply said "car audio sucks nutz", a far cry from your cleaned up version. Home audio is alot easier to set up. I am going to be building my home theatre myself as soon as I can afford to do it. Until then I will stick to the car. Nobody ever told you Car audio is better than home audio. I even said so myself a couple pages back. Try reading what you are arguing against next time. Just incase you decide not to I'll say it here too.

Home audio in general sounds better than in car audio as in the home you will not have to deal with such things as speaker location (kicks or doors, either is not the perfect location, where as in your house you can put them wherever you need to) ambient noise (sit in a car on the highway, now sit in you living room, bit of a difference right?) So does this mean it's impossible for a car stereo to sound good? No, and you're an idiot for thinking so. It just means you must try really hard to get it to sound good. You just haven't found anybody that has put any effort into thier car stereo yet.

Now you have a nice day and I await your response "No you am dumb and car stereo is sucks nuts"

Damn, I forgot what was in this thread completely.

I have a Samson S1000 and have measured with a voltmeter to determine how much power my subs handling while playing a CD with a 20Hz sine wave. It is rated in the owners manual 545w rms into 4ohms. I measure 43.9v at 20Hz, obviously less current availible to provide the full output. Still, plenty of oumph for my $125 a piece drivers. In room response of about 120dB (+/-4dB) from 16Hz up to 100Hz for far less money than you spent on your amp alone. but I have not idea what the true impedence of my drivers at 20Hz. I suppose I should check that out because impedence usualyl goes up as frequency goes down when talking about this octave of material.

My receiver is rated at 90Wx5 rinto 8ohms and my front mains and center channels are 4-ohm loads. Rear are 8-ohm. I've never measured how much voltage they actually take as my ears hurt way before I could take such a measurement.

High current can suck my nuts. You've been hangin out in too many HK shops. Yes, power (which is directly related to output or loudness given the efficiency and environment transfer gain) equals voltage times current. Everyone knows VI=P from high school physics. So, what good is high current if you don't have the voltage? What good is 40w of power with high low impedance current if it still only produces 95dB in room response at 20Hz. That is hardly enough to notice, let alone feel. Just an example, though. Gotta have both.

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To me loudness and excursion mean nothing if it cant do 20hz.

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Actually, the three are closely related, as Dave gave an example. It takes a certain amount of excursion to produce a specific volume level given the efficiency of a particular driver and its impedence playing such frequency. All a speaker does is move air. The more it moves, the louder it is. Very simple concept.

If this original Sunfire driver has about 2" of one way excursion (probably is 2-way,but benefit of the doubt), that still is not much compared to the list Dave gave earlier. This is by no means accurate, but the surface area is pi times the radius squared. for an 8" driver, 4^2*pi equals about 50 square inches. A 12" is 113 square inches and 176sqin for a 15" driver. Thus 3 8" drivers would not even have the output of a single 15" given the same excursion (and availible power). There are quite a few 12-15" drivers that have a little less excursion, but can easily output 108dB, and do it lower. As Dave has been trying to get through to you, the Sunfire in question has an F3 at 25Hz and 108dB in room. I hate in room responses because no one has the same room as the next person. I figure that means closer to 105dB at 25Hz, and more like 102dB at 20Hz. While it may be heard, a step into my room (or my brother's or thousands of other peoples and probably one of your neighbors) can far out produce that 20Hz response. I could easily do it when I had an old stereo receiver powering my subs, only 125w to each one.

One point I'd like to make is that may speakers can have a flat response down to 20Hz or lower, but if it either does not have the excursion and cannot take the power, it is uselss for reproducing a material in that frequency range.

Aaron

dave said

"Here is another thing you may find interesting (but will probably dismiss as merely physics). In order for a 12" driver to produce 100 dB at 20 hz, it would have to move 17mm one way. In order for an 8" to produce 100dB at 20 hz, it would have to move 41mm one way. For a 5" to play 20 hz at 100 dB, it would need to be able to move 82mm one way. This was assuming a sealed box. A ported box can change things drastically. "

you know dave cone excursion is not the only component that determines how low can one go. The enclosures is very important as well. Think Bose. Transmissions line designs having very long line or enclosure length yielding compact speakers using small driver that deliver low bass. I went to the HIFi show this past May2002 at the Hilton and saw a few compact transmission line designs that gave very low extension. Yet in car audio the only discussion when it comes to a sub is normally box cubic volume.

Dave are there any car subs out there that use long snaking transmission lines to generate bass? Now since watts are cheaper these days an inefficient transmission design is more feasible I would think.

CPW,

Like I said, there are headphones that will play down to 20 hz, its just a matter of what level they play at. I don't think Bose is a good example because they don't have any substantial bass below 40 hz on any of there products.

TLs can be very good at producing very deep bass, but they need to be exceedingly long and aren't very realistic in a car. Bose did do a TL of sorts in the 93-95 RSX, but deep bass is not its strong suit.

Dave and I were actually contemplating a transmission line enclosure in the ZX5. We ended up dropping it because the box would never fit in the hatch area.

You don't all need to be bickering. It's all very simple. To paraphrase the greatest audiophile of all time: "Let's say you're at ten, all the way up, all the way up, all the way up, where can you go? Nowhere. What WE do, when we need to get that extra push over the cliff...is go to eleven...."

Wow... I just read the post, and I just wanna put my 2 cents in. I live in an apartment, therefore I cannot turn my home stereo up very loud. My car stereo is my sanity as is for most people. and as for comparing 80k speakers, most people will never even see a picture of a speaker that expensive. (me included) I have a car stereo that cost me about $600.00. It would not win any competitions, but it sure makes me happy, how does this suck nutz? and I do know that any decent sub can sound just as good as high priced one, to a regular guy. I realize that power handling and excursion are important to magazines and competitions, but for daily driving, it doesn't really mean much. You can only stand so much before your head gets blury and my two jensen ks212's ($35.00 a piece at k-mart)and my 175x2 jensen xa2250 ($100.00 at a flee market) in a regular square box, do that at about 1\2 way up. Yes I know I'm a cheapskate, but it really does sound great. The point is, if you don't like car audio, good for you, but to say it sucks nutz is an opinion, not fact. No matter how long you post #'s, and continue with garble, that will never change. Your great home stereo would be worthless to me, just as my great car stereo would be useless to you.

horay now that is what we need to talk about

bang for the buck sound