Contour Enthusiasts Group Archives Forums Modifications Brakes improving emergency stop distance

I don't drive track events much at all. I'm looking to shorten my stopping distances in emergency situations during normal road driving. So bigger brake kits won't help, my tires are already very grippy, and I'm not willing to stiffen the suspension any more.

So I was thinking, who makes our ABS ? Is it a Ford product or somebody like Bosch? Any chance they have a direct replacement computer that has quicker reaction times? ABS is constantly evolving and an upgrade might be easy.

Brian Dors
99 SVT

You will have to his Big Jim up for this one! I don't know that you are going to get any upgraded performance out of the SVT braking system. The SVT has an excellent braking system. More than likely you would have to upgrade the master cyclinder and you would looking at more money than any upgraded braking system. You could try Stainless Steel brakes lines or Willwood caliper!

-Andy

Upgrade the brake fluid, i recommend ATE super blue AND have stainless steel lines installed front and rear, along with some nice pags (EBC, whatever). . .if you still hesitate, then consider a different caliper/rotor setup.

On the baer.com website, they are the first ones to tell you that upgrading to their big brake system doesn't affect brake performance at all. . .it's usually the brake fluid, the brake lines, and the pads. . .rotors just dissipate heat, so unless you plan on doing repeated emergency stops within 5 minutes, do the above stuff and see how you like it (plus, buying the fluid, lines, and pads won't cost more than $200 for all 4 corners, as opposed to spending nearly 1.2g's on a brake kit)

my .02
Suneil

Suneil -

For normal road usage, and the occasional hard stop during rush hour when you weren't paying attention , I doubt my fluid is boiling. Stainless steel brake lines and pads may improve bite, but I've already got enough bite to kick in ABS, so I don't see how any of these things would shorten my stopping distance.



Brian Dors
99 SVT

A good friend of mine worked for Bosch Brakes ABS division.

He says for best performance
1) ALWAYS run OEM pads
2) ALWAYS run OEM Tires
3) ALWAYS run orig. sized Rims/Tires
3) Try to never use ABS.

It seems that they do extensive testing on OEM pads and tires to get the ABS program just right. Adding sticky tires, or better pads (bigger rotors too) will just mess with the ABS programming.

I wouldn't be surprised if some enterprising aftermarket company started "Burning Chips" for ABS programs to use different sized rims, sticker tires and better pads.

Originally posted by bxd20:

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but I've already got enough bite to kick in ABS

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...which means the topic belongs to wheel/tire section because the brakes are doing their job better than the tires can handle.

The root question is whether there is a way to upgrade the ABS algorithms to match your stickier tires and other brake upgrades.

We're all crashing on the rocks, here, because I don't think anyone here has ever tried it. Even the tech articles I've read from people like StopTech say that the "good" big brake makers try to tune their systems to the factory ABS systems. (See article) Seems to me that if it were easy to do, these guys would tune the ABS to match their big brake systems, which would give them more freedom to design calipers, pistons, etc. without compensating with a smaller master cylinder.

The simple answer is, for street use, the brakes are damm good. If you want to really zoop up your brake system without screwing up the ABS, the only answer may be to disconnect the ABS.

Thanks Roger, that's kind of where I was hoping this thread would go. Point being, I KNOW I've read C&D reviews that say stuff like "... and the '98 Corvette's Bosch ABS system now features <blah blah blah> that can measure and adjust braking pressure "x" times faster than last year's model."

When I read stuff like that, I can't help but think that the owner of the 97 could just replace his ABS module with a 98 version if nothing else on the car changed.

This might be what it boils down to: Do the part #'s for our ABS modules match across all years? What about the Cougar's?

If Bill did some hunting, and found out that say the part number for a 99 SVT is different than an 00 SVT, I could see this being a potential improvement to our braking systems.

Long shot, but I'm curious.


Brian Dors
99 SVT

A good set of pads will be your best bet.

My 99 ATX uses the ABS for front/rear brake balancing. Disconnecting the ABS causes my rears to lock up prematurely. I know some models use a mechanical proportioning valve (There was a recall on it) but some are EDS (Electronic Distribution System, IIRC) and I wouldn't recommend disconnecting ABS on them.

FWIW, the new Mini Coopers uses the same system (Bosch ABS w/EDS). My sister has a Mini (Not the S model) and it annoyed her to no end when I pointed this out.

All cars without ABS have the mechanical proportioning valve, and all cars with ABS have EBD, EDS, or whatever you want to call it. I do remember reading a recall on the thing for cars without ABS. My 6000 has Bosch ABS, and the 6000 and the Mystique have about the same braking performance I'd say. They both stop in a short distance, and they both have great ABS systems.

The bosch ABS module/program is custom tailored by bosch engineers for the specific car. It is optimized for the OEM parts. Any change with any parts (tires, wheels, pads) and you can throw the program off, if only by a little bit.

Many of these changes simply do not allow the easy steering while brakeing feature of ABS... in other words, you may expirence some short bursts of lockup... or may never be able to extract all the stoping power of the new tires.

Originally posted by Cool Blue Mystique:

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All cars without ABS have the mechanical proportioning valve, and all cars with ABS have EBD, EDS, or whatever you want to call it. I do remember reading a recall on the thing for cars without ABS. My 6000 has Bosch ABS, and the 6000 and the Mystique have about the same braking performance I'd say. They both stop in a short distance, and they both have great ABS systems.

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Not true. I have had a number of cars with ABS and mechanical proportioning valves. In addition, not all mechanical proportioning valves are alike. Some are fixed (Like my 86 pontiac 6000, born about the time you were) and some are load adjustable and connect to a rear suspension piece to compensate for loaded and unloaded conditions. My 94 Sable was like this, 4 channel ABS and a mechanical valve. Most "modern" (Modern being less than 50 years old) pickups without ABS have a variable prop. valve. Though nowadays, "rear ABS only" compensates for this. My company has a couple of Ford Econolines like this (About 2000).

Get the stickiest tires you can find, and learn threshold braking. ABS is a substitute for true threshold braking, and very very rarely is a good substitute for it. A good driver can typicaly stop faster without the "aid" of ABS if he (or she) utilizes the technique of threshold braking.

The key behind it, is the fact that tires offer the most grip when they in a state of some slip while still rolling, usually it is around 7% slip, but really depends on the tire. ABS systems kick in when ANY slip is detected (the better systems do try to accomodate for the little bit of slip) where threshold braking is all about holding the car right on that razor's edge between still kinda rolling and sliding. ABS sytems, by there very nature, kick above and below that line very rapidly, not taking full advantage of it; with the faster, better systems able to take better advantage of it though.

Bottom line, most people can't do it, and I don't think there is anybody that can do it every single time (heck, Mr. Schumacher even locks 'em up on occasion) so we have ABS.

As far as swapping components between systems, etc. well, for the most part I would be amazed if they work at all, but kepe in mind, that you have absolutely no way of knowing if you have actually improved your system, or made it worse, at least not without extensive testing, on a closed track, and with very very expensive test equipment, that I'm not sure many of us have ever even seen, let alone have access to.

Not all ABS systems include EBD (electronic brake distribution). EBD is an enhancement of ABS. If I remember correctly, Volvo added EBD in 1999. I remember a customer who did not like the noise his new Volvo sometimes made on hard breaking that his two year older Volvo did not make.

My 98 E0 SVT does not have EBD. If EBD was added to later Contiques, or even only SVT's, I'll have to take your word for it. Mine does have rear pressure reducing valves (although the part number is different from non ABS cars). I don't remember seeing anything about EBD in Ford products until the launch of the Lincoln LS.

EBD is a good thing in that it can take several factors in determining proper rear braking force so that under some conditions it can use the rear brakes much more agressively. Think of it as a continusly variable proportioning valve.

My experience with ABS is that as long as the tire size remains close to the factory size the system still works great. The Lincoln LS owner that complained of ABS problems with 22" wheels and much larger diameter tires did have a self inflicted problem. Tires that are not as sticky seem to make the ABS come on more easily while tires that are very sticky seem to make the ABS harder to invoke (which is a good thing). Think of ABS as your emergency friend. When it does come on, it just might save your life. It is better still to try to stay out of those life threatening situations. I see no benefit in trying to make the ABS come on any easier.

I really don't know all the answers here, but this is my $.02 contribution.

I meant all ConTiques without ABS have it.

I would never drive in a car without ABS, I judt dont feel safe in them. Try driving 45mph down the street when it'c oevered in glare ice, and having a stoplight turn red on you. I've had that happen to me in my Mystique, my 6000, and my mom's BMW, all of which obviously have ABS, and I stopped perfectly while I remember one time an Escort next to me went sliding into the drivers door of a minivan. Or driving 65 down a gravel road at night, and having a deer jump infront of you, I'm glad I have ABS. One of the best safety features they ever invented.

I wonder if you have ever driven a Car without ABS. How about all drum brakes and no power?? Ever driven a car with no power steering, no power brakes, no A/C, no power windows, no disk brakes, no HP, No fuel injection, no alternator, no radial tires, no airbags, no catalytic converter, no PCV valve, no automatic Choke, no synchronizers on the tranny ? You probably haven't and will never know the pure mechanical connection one can have with a car. By the time you are independent of your parents, cars will be totally fly-by-wire and the driver will have no direct connection to the machinery he/she is operating.

ABS will increase braking distance in loose snow. Instead of snow building up in front of the wheel and helping you stop, the wheels keep turning on top of the snow and have less traction. Sand is similar, gravel is similar. ABS is better in most other circumstances. Cheap ABS has drawbacks too. My Sable would swerve badly when one side of the car had bad traction and one side good. IE: hard braking when right wheels were near shoulder (sand/debris) and left on good traction pavement. It nearly caused me to have an accident.
On hard braking in a sharp turn, the inside rear wheel would lift, engaging the ABS, and not allowing as fast a braking rate. The computer doesn't always do the right thing. The ABS for brakes is similar to ATX for transmissions. In most cases it shifts/brakes the way you want, but in some conditions, it chooses the wrong action. IMHO.

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I would never drive in a car without ABS, I judt dont feel safe in them. Try driving 45mph down the street when it'c oevered in glare ice, and having a stoplight turn red on you.

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You need to learn how to drive...like Rara said...threshold braking.

I once saw on TV a "professional" driver driving a car with ABS disabled, and a regular person driving the same car with ABS. Using threshold braking, in any condition the car without ABS stopped faster and maintained more control over the car. Quite frankly...the whole "mash the pedal" mentality most people and car manufacturers are developing scares me...

ABS is really only a way for folks that can't get the most out of thier brake systems top get more out of it in the bad situations.

EBD is pretty new in the braking world, and I'm pretty sure that no contique (Cougar too) ever got EBD. And if they did, its not "real" EBD, but just an electronic prop valve, rather than a real distribution system (you see these on vehicles w/ IVD)

Split Mu braking also can be a challenge (when the two sides of the car have dramatically different levels of grip, like described above) Manufacturers spend a great deal of time these days developing a system that doesn't respond badly to split Mu (like was described above)

Don't get me started on panic assist braking . . .

My 99 has Bosch ABS 5.3..I assume 2000's are the same.

In reply to:

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ABS Series: Bosch 5.3, Beyond ABS, Larry Carley, Brake & Front End, February 2001

As anti-lock brake technology continues to evolve, ABS systems are becoming more sophisticated, complicated and compact. Many systems today are capable of providing stability control, as well as traction control, and some have also taken over the job of handling front-to-rear brake proportioning. The Bosch 5.3 ABS system fits this description.

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Thats why the recall only included non-ABS (late model)Contours. No mech. Prop. valve on ABS models. I bet the SVT E1 has it. From a money standpoint, cheaper to use Bosch than a separate system or device.

I know I read we have EBD somewhere else, but I can't seem to put my finger on it. I'll keep looking, but not too hard.

1999 seems to be the year that EBD was introduced. Seen an article on the 1999 Cougar that mentioned it. I have Traction Control too, which isn't/wasn't available on CSVTs.

I am sure someone in this group has some inside info source at Ford and can get a definitive answer on this...

I was under the primary assumption that ABS simply allows you to manuever your car while the brakes are locked up? A couple years ago in snow with bald tires behind a stupid driver my brakes just died but I was able to turn my car and go around the other car (in between it and mailbox...wierd I don't know how I got thru)

So could someone clarify ABS for a moron like me? TIA.

ABS keeps the wheels from locking under heavy braking. Locked wheels can't steer, so ABS allows you to steer under heavy braking by modulating the brakes using a hydraulic pump, solenoid valves and wheel speed sensors.

The hardware (Sensors, Hydraulic Pump, etc)that does this can also do proportioning, traction control and stability control. Bosch ABS 5.3 has this in it's module. The Bosch system under discussion is also used in Caddies and Corvettes (from my recent reading)and utilizes all the features. From what I seen, the PCM must be programmed for these features to use them on the ABS module. I have ABS, Traction Control and EDB (Electronic Brake Distribution). CSVT's don't use the Traction control but I am not sure about the EBD.

1999 CSVT's got all the fancy braking electronics. . .1998 CSVT owners were left with ABS only. My experience: I had crappy ford brake fluid before, and ABS would kick in on the slightest excited-brake-slamming pressure, it drove me nutz. Now, after I added the brake fluid, the baer brakes, the new pads, I'm experiencing braking like never before; maybe it's the pads, maybe the fluid, maybe it's the KDW's with the larger tire patch, BUT as far as my ABS interfering, It hasn't piped in to "save" me since I added the new fluid (since I did the fluid change after I installed the brakes and pads). . .it seems to me, in MY case, that fluid plays a more dynamic role than the ABS programming, since, like someone mentioned before, modulating the braking yourself is a bit more effective than the ABS.

i dunno if I'm making sense here, maybe I should post sober. . .

Your brakes do the best job right at the moment BEFORE the wheel locks up. ABS keeps your wheel AT that moment. Threshold braking? On ICE? You have obviously NEVER driven on ice before, the minute your foot touched the brake pedal, the ABS kicks in. Same way with accelerating, with both the Mystique, and the BMW, it's nearly IMPOSSIBLE not to activate traction control, and with the 6000, it's nearly impossible not to kick AWD in gear.

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You have obviously NEVER driven on ice before, the minute your foot touched the brake pedal, the ABS kicks in.

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Again, you need to learn how to drive. You're the 15 year old here...let's not get into experience and driver skill mmk?

EDIT: And traction control makes the contique useless in the snow. I can't believe you drive with it on. Same goes for the bimmer. I was in my bosses //M3 in the snow one time, with less than an inch of snow on the ground the traction control was going crazy, and in 3-4 inches the car was undriveable. Both problems solved with a flip of the off switch though!

Yes, I use Traction Control at all times. I dont know what's wrong with yours and your bosses, but it makes the cars very easy to drive in snow. I can drive faster with the TCS on because Im not spinning my wheels, the wheels are actually gripping the road surface. The BMW's is much more useful though (Ive driven with the TCS on and off, and with it off, that back end fishtails like hell with 290hp)

hey genius, I wasn't suggesting you threshold break on ice, only an IDIOT brakes like that on the ice, use your gears. . .furthermore, I got my B.S. in Ann Arbor, MI (embarassed to say after the Notre Dame debacle today, that's another story), so don't be presumptuous about anybody's driving experiences, since I've done the winter thing one too many times. . .and I never spun out even in the dead of a Michigan blizzard without the traction control, i was smart and invested in blizzaks. . .

Suneil

Exactly suniel, ABS is no replacement for a good driver...people got by fine for many years without it.

And you shouldn't be driving faster withe traction control on...that would be bad. If you're spinning like mad without TC you're doing something wrong, bottom line. And I don't see what traction control has to do with grip. TC senses wheel slip and cuts throttle to stop it, the same exact thing you can do with your foot..only less precise. On the bimmer, it made the car practically undriveable because the wheels would just shudder trying to get traction. But back to my original point, there is no mechanical replacement for a good driver...I suggest you get more in tune with your vehicles.

Thanks for the explanation. Either way the ABS probably saved my front end there.

Fairly bald tires in winter was an interesting experience though, nothing like being passed by Mustangs in the snow.

I sold my 2wd Toyoata pickup a couple of years ago. I have a long, steep hill up to my house. We get a bit of snow and ice. I can't tell you how many 4wd vehicles go off the road because of overconfidence. I have had to go around cars and trucks with ABS, traction, control and 4wd because they became stuck and i had none of it. The trick to driving in slippery conditions is not to overdrive or overbrake the traction. Real traction control is with the driver, not the PCM. An experienced driver is aware of the traction, throttle and braking and controls it for conditions. Relying on ABS is a crutch for the general masses who remain unconscious of the conditions around them. An inexperienced driver needs and welcomes ABS as that driver does not have the ability or skill to drive without it. Like I said in a previous post, ABS doesn't always work in your favor. On my hill, I was forced to drive all the way to the bottom on a car with ABS because the ABS would not allow any braking action because 1 or 2 of the wheels were sliding whereas a Non-ABS vehicle would have had more control because I could of had some braking action on the wheels with more traction. On glare ice, ABS does prevent you from locking your wheels, but does not allow you to stop. Whether ABS or not, you are along for the ride.

I have been driving with a license for 32 years. I've driven cars, trucks, tractor-trailers, LARGE wreckers, heavy equipment (front loaders, cranes, backhoes), motorcycles, in all sorts of conditions. I have a mechanical engineering degree, a Masters Degree, spent 3 years in the Army as a Wheeled Vehicle Mechanic. So I find it humorous that someone with their license less than a year believes he has all that much to offer to the subject. Unlike some who have been getting peeved (justified IMHO), I just laugh when I see posts offering advice from someone who isn't old enough to vote yet. Of course, that person could be a troll, just stirring things up. Either way, hahahaha...

As far as AWD/4WD, it just means that you can get stuck in more places than 2WD.

When I was in the Army, I had a standing challenge to anyone:

I will keep my Jeep in 2WD (open diffs front and rear) and follow you anywhere with their Jeep in 4WD.

Uphill, Downhill, mud, sand, fording rivers (except once, buddy went in water deeper than intake, I didn't follow and he didn't make it out of the water ((well he did, the Jeep didn't)))

These were M151A2's. No computer, no ABS, no Traction control, no radio, no ignition key, 4 speed, no synchro 1st gear, 4w independent suspension, no roof, no doors, no pollution equipment, 4cyl-no horsepower to speak of (top speed about 55-60MPH), no handling-you could overturn these in a heartbeat.

Never lost the bet.

Technique over technology.

You don't need 4wd. Just makes it easier to get in over your head.

Originally posted by Contouraholic:

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You don't need 4wd. Just makes it easier to get in over your head.

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Indeed. We get serious winters up here, and whenever a 4WD owner says that he can get a greater distance in his vehicle than we can, we always answer with "ye olde saying": "Yeah man, you can get a longer distance off the road when you lose it!"

It always takes a longer towing line to get'em out..

I've been driving 22 years without traction control or ABS. Never lost it (touching wood), never had to stay home because of the weather. Sometimes it feels like most people leave their brains at home whenever snow flakes are falling...

Finally,

That's one of the smartest things you've said here.

Now stop trying to upset everybody and either cooperate (doesn't mean you have to agree with everyone else, just be civil) with the rest of the folks here, or move on.

Too many threads have been closed related to your contributions here.

You seem a lot like my pre-teen daughter. Very smart, but totally lacking in the common sense, gets along with others department. She currently uses her smarts to just get her way instead of cooperating with her family.

Haven't met you in person, so perhaps this is just an "Internet Persona".

Oh yeah, the topic is brakes. Sometimes we need to put brakes on our mouth (fingers) and think before we type

And finally, the best thing to improve emergency stopping distance is:

TIRES you can only apply brake force to the limit of your tires traction. So if you trip the ABS system on dry pavement, you are at maximum, traction limited, brake force.

FWIW,

TB

A good driver is more important than ABS when it comes to stopping distances.

That said... ABS will keep somebody from chewing up a set of soft race tires on the track and save some cash but give me non-ABS any day of the week.

For most people I would rather them *HAVE* ABS... My kids will drive cars with ABS when they start driving.. I will let them loose on the AutoX course and test track without it and let them learn how to really drive but until they have to pay their own insurance and for their own wrecks I won't allow them to drive non-ABS cars on the street.

as for the "Youngest" CEG member. Your lack of age shows. Chill. you do need ABS. I have driven in all sorts of places with all sorts of conditions. I will take a 2wd FWD car (pref. with LSD) and NO ABS any day over the techno-cars.

F1 cars have the neat tricks but they spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to get the systems right. street cars have systems that will not allow the automakers to be sued... they aren't a substitue for a good driver.

I'm frankly a little tired of hearing that only "bad" drivers need ABS or TC, and I respectfully disagree.

I've been driving for almost 20 years, and with ABS/TC since 1996. I've only had one occasion that I can remember to turn off the TC, and that was glare ice on a hill.

Otherwise, I drive commensurate with the conditions, and hardly ever activate either system. When they do come on, it's because I've missed something, or the conditions changed, or whatever, but it's a clue that I need to slow down.

Of course, I didn't have either when I lived in Michigan's UP. Talk about snow. Maybe I'd see things differently if I had. But, C&D did a test several years back, comparing a 4wd, fwd, rwd, and fwd with TC, and rwd with tc in deep snow. They drove each one till it got stuck. The 4wd made it the farthest, followed by the fwd with TC, followed by everyone else.

ABS and TC do not replace driver skill, but I still think that when these tools are understood and used properly, they can and do enhance safety and control, even for "good" drivers. Your model assumes that the conditions are always known. Common sense and 32 years of driving ought to tell you that this is not always the case.

Roger, I don't think anyone is saying that only "bad" drivers shoudl have ABS and/or TC, etc. but "bad" drivers do need them. The truth of the matter is, that a skilled driver can and will both stop quicker than ABS, and hustle around a track faster than TC, or at least hte current generations of the systems. Does that mean a skilled driver has no use for abs/TC/IVD etc.? no I don't think so, even the best drivers in the world do not drive at 10/10ths all the time, not even the venerable Schuey. . .

Bottom line, these systems are safety nets, not hammocks. Please treat them as such. Know how to get along w/ out them, and you will be far better in the long run.

Ditto..What Rara said.....

Just to add....A skilled Driver with 4wd will go further than the same skill with 2WD.

I find it interesting that Mercedes has added some programming to add full brake application pressure to emergency braking (via the ABS pump) because some people with ABS aren't pushing the peddle hard enough. Even ABS takes a little skill.

Originally posted by Contouraholic:

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I find it interesting that Mercedes has added some programming to add full brake application pressure to emergency braking (via the ABS pump) because some people with ABS aren't pushing the peddle hard enough. Even ABS takes a little skill.

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This is the panic assist function I referred to above. I'm not a big fan of it;l though it will help someone that can't deal w/ an emergency situation w/ some level of maintained composure/intelligence. It is actually becoming more and more prevalent too, I know the new Ford Expedition and Lincoln Navigator both have this function.

Originally posted by Contouraholic:

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My 99 has Bosch ABS 5.3..I assume 2000's are the same.

In reply to:

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ABS Series: Bosch 5.3, Beyond ABS, Larry Carley, Brake & Front End, February 2001

As anti-lock brake technology continues to evolve, ABS systems are becoming more sophisticated, complicated and compact. Many systems today are capable of providing stability control, as well as traction control, and some have also taken over the job of handling front-to-rear brake proportioning. The Bosch 5.3 ABS system fits this description.

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Thats why the recall only included non-ABS (late model)Contours. No mech. Prop. valve on ABS models. I bet the SVT E1 has it. From a money standpoint, cheaper to use Bosch than a separate system or device.

I know I read we have EBD somewhere else, but I can't seem to put my finger on it. I'll keep looking, but not too hard.

1999 seems to be the year that EBD was introduced. Seen an article on the 1999 Cougar that mentioned it. I have Traction Control too, which isn't/wasn't available on CSVTs.

I am sure someone in this group has some inside info source at Ford and can get a definitive answer on this...

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My 98.5 E1 has EBD. Just an FYI

Keep in mind even F1 drivers use TC and ABS in their race cars... the point I was making is that the TC they use is so darn expensive (read MANY times the cost of our cars) and is so customized that 'normal' drivers like us would never find the limits.

I never said bad drivers need TC or ABS, but I said my kids will have at least ABS.. if not some sort of Stbility control as well (my kids are young so that sort of thing will be common by the time they start driving)

With the king of HP and sensitive handling of F1 cars, human responses probably aren't fast enough. Like some of our Jet Fighters that are inherently unstable and can only be fly by wire. Also, isn't F1 using clutchless shifting with paddles for shifting on the steering wheels?

I have ABS and TC, and I use them. But I don't need them. some respondents said they would never drive without them, considering their skill level, they shouldn't drive without them.

Another point is, though, few people develop driving skills because they are not used as much. Pays to turn off the help and learn to drive once in a while.

Originally posted by Contouraholic:

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I find it interesting that Mercedes has added some programming to add full brake application pressure to emergency braking (via the ABS pump) because some people with ABS aren't pushing the peddle hard enough. Even ABS takes a little skill.

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This is because the people who own vehicles with ABS, aren't told by their dealers
that they NEED to practice stopping with the ABS system in their cars,
to become accustomed to how it feels.

They are still pumping the pedal, like the old braking system !

When I worked at a Buick Dealer, we would take the customers out to a big and emtpy parking lot
and let them feel what ABS activation felt like.

If you NEVER have an emergency stop,
and you NEVER have any experience
using the equipment you have,
then how can you use it safely ?

Invoking ABS training should be part of a defensive driving course,
as well as delivery of an ABS equipped vehicle.

I'm surprised Ford dosen't have ABS standard on their vehicles. GM has had ABS standard on even the Cavalier since 1992 (even though ABS is optional on the Impala, while STILL standard on Cavalier, Malibu, etc...) I remember I read a few weeks ago Ford's reason for NOT having it standard; Texas didn't need it. It's the only thing I've heard where minority rules 49:1. Ford should have ABS standard on ALL models, even the Focus LX. Even if it is optional, pay the $500 and get it. $500 is a small price considering on what you pay for body work these days, even if you only use ABS once, it'll pay for itself.

Originally posted by RoadRunner:

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Originally posted by Contouraholic:

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I find it interesting that Mercedes has added some programming to add full brake application pressure to emergency braking (via the ABS pump) because some people with ABS aren't pushing the peddle hard enough. Even ABS takes a little skill.

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This is because the people who own vehicles with ABS, aren't told by their dealers
that they NEED to practice stopping with the ABS system in their cars,
to become accustomed to how it feels.

They are still pumping the pedal, like the old braking system !

When I worked at a Buick Dealer, we would take the customers out to a big and emtpy parking lot
and let them feel what ABS activation felt like.

If you NEVER have an emergency stop,
and you NEVER have any experience
using the equipment you have,
then how can you use it safely ?

Invoking ABS training should be part of a defensive driving course,
as well as delivery of an ABS equipped vehicle.

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I agree the dealers don't explain operation of the car, but, there is an owners manual on a new car. I read mine!

Plus, I go to empty parking lots, deserted areas and explore the cars limits in a safe way. I don't like discovering the handling quirks of a car when I am in the middle of avoiding contact with a jack-knifing tractor trailer.

There are a lot of crutches for people who don't want to take a little responsibility for their life. Air bags are an example. If we really wanted crash protection, H harnesses will do quite nicely, but our world needs passive devices because so many are too lazy to buckle up. Air bags are dangerous to children, but people put their kids in the front seat despite all the warnings. You ever see the warnings on a hair dryer? don't use under water, don't use while asleep....

We design products more and more for morons (a little alliteration there):D)

Oh well, I guess I am glad some people have ABS because they don't know how to work the brakes. !

TedS,

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Keep in mind even F1 drivers use TC and ABS in their race cars... the point I was making is that the TC they use is so darn expensive (read MANY times the cost of our cars)

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Not quite true. ABS has been outlawed in F1 for quite a few years. TC is used, but most of the cost and work is involved in the development of the strategy for it, not in the actual hardware. F1 cars simply use an ignition stutter setup for traction control (you can hear it when somebody gets on it a little too hard.

RoadRunner,

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This is because the people who own vehicles with ABS, aren't told by their dealers
that they NEED to practice stopping with the ABS system in their cars,
to become accustomed to how it feels.

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No, this is incorrect, it is because in a panic situation, people tend to hit the pedal quickly, but not press it hard enough to get into ABS, hence the mechanical/electronic assist into getting max braking in a panic stop.

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They are still pumping the pedal, like the old braking system !

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Many folks can modulate better than current production ABS units (read threshold braking) by pumping the pedal.

Cool Blue Mystique,

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I'm surprised Ford dosen't have ABS standard on their vehicles.

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If I don't want or need something, I sure as heck don't want to be forced to pay for it. There are many situations where someone can be better off not having ABS (though I can't imagine you personally being in any of these situations . . .) And it definately doesn't preclude ANYONE from ordering an ABS equipped vehicle if that's what they want. Your comparison is almost like someone claiming that Ford never should have offered a Zetec powered Contour, and that they should have just made all of the customers pay for the duratech. While most folks would have loved it, it doesn't suit everyone's needs.
I guess ignorance is bliss.

Like I said before, all mechanical/electronic braking/handling aids, like ABS/TC/IVD/Panic Assist, etc. ad nauseum, are SAFETY NETS and NOT hammocks. Don't rely on them, learn to get by without them, and if ABS or TC or IVD or Panic Assist saves your arse one day, be thankful you had the safety net. But if you ever have a system failure, or ar driving a car without them, you are completely screwed if you don't know how to deal w/ it.

Tightening the nut behind the wheel, will improve every car you ever drive.

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Tightening the nut behind the wheel, will improve every car you ever drive.

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Word!!!

I think tires are more important than everything else. I was just trying to save a few bucks and almost ended up losing a front end.

To the person (persons) who recommended threshold braking...when you're driving 70 in the freeway and an animal bolts across the road infront of you, what do your instincts tell you to do? Pump the brakes? I think not!

Originally posted by Cool Blue Mystique:

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To the person (persons) who recommended threshold braking...when you're driving 70 in the freeway and an animal bolts across the road infront of you, what do your instincts tell you to do? Pump the brakes? I think not!

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My instincts tell me to drive around it. If an animal bolts in front of you and you're at 70, your'e not gonna stop in time.

What you're getting at though, is do people respond correctly in a panic situation? The answer is yes. . . and no. Yes, there are people that respond correctly, because they have conditioned themselves to, and there are people that don't, hence the proliferation of such electronic and mechanical brake application aids.

CBM,
Any chance you will come up w/ a good point anytime soon? Yes, ABS is, overall for the world, a very good thing. Is it an absolute necessity? No, and a resounding no at that. There are those that prefer no ABS, and can stop faster in almost any situation without it. Simple facts my friend, whether you suck at proper braking technique or not.

Originally posted by Cool Blue Mystique:

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To the person (persons) who recommended threshold braking...when you're driving 70 in the freeway and an animal bolts across the road infront of you, what do your instincts tell you to do? Pump the brakes? I think not!

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Of course you think not, your 15. You need ABS. After your driving for, say, 20 years, or after taking a few Bondurant Courses or such, your instinct may be to threshold brake rather than panic like a teenager (Assuming you are better than the unwashed masses). Have you thought about what would happen if a fuse blew at a crucial time and you had to make an emergency stop without ABS? Would you be prepared?

This recently happened to me (in October) in my Escort (no ABS). A car suddenly backed out of a driveway in front of me. I was doing 35 in a 40, so speeding was not the issue. I didn't lock em up, I braked very hard (Tires protesting but not skidding), went over to the other side of the road, veered back into my lane (to avoid oncoming traffic) and managed to stop shaking 5 minutes later. If I was like you are now,young, inexperienced, without ABS, I probably would of locked them up and slid into him. If your ABS went out, you would be unable to control your vehicle.

I tell you what, if you have a blow out at high speed, with one wheel turning faster than the other, the ABS will think your skidding and refuse to give you the braking you may want. I have had blowouts, front, rear (rear are hairy) and if you panic and jam the brakes you will lose it. And ABS may not let you get all the braking you want either. Takes a experienced driver to avoid panic and bring their vehicle to a controlled stop.

Try driving an 80,000Lb GVW Tractor trailer. Stopping is difficult. You need to drive a 1000 ft ahead of yourself and plan all your moves. Sudden moves are a guarantee of a jack-knife or rollover. Braking is even more fun with 5 axles and air brakes are much more difficult to modulate than our little cars. And if you hit someone in a car, you are more than likely to kill them. A Professional Driver (which you are not, yet) learns to control his vehicle and not panic in an emergency.

This calmness under pressure comes from practice, training and experience. These things take time. You may be better at 20, you may not. But you aren't near there yet.

Recently, i took driver's ed (about 8 months ago), and they barely mention threshold braking (my dad and myself) had taught me how to brake effective w/out ABS (97 GL, no ABS). THe driver's ed teacher was a little crazy, I said what if I own a car without ABS and I don't slam on the brakes, adn she said "time to by a new car". (LOL ) I like ABS in some circumstances, but I like having control over the vehicle and not the computer. ABS is excellent in SUVs (Ford Explorer perhaps...)and I was doing 45 and the yellow just popped and people began doing left klane turns at the yellow, the stopping distance was excellent the truck leaned way WAY nose down but it stopped at the line exactly. Though I was on the verge of a panic attack, I was happy that I stopped and was happy the ABS light didn't turn on



But they need to grind it into to people's head about correct braking, with and withour ABS equipped vehicles.

It saved me from a few accidents especially when I got my rotors all wet in the rain and I nearly missed a Grand Am by about 4-6 feet as I reacted quickly and correctly by going up a (like a shopping center when curb is low then it rose up), I guess wet cement grips better than flooded asphalt, because my car leaned into it and I can feel the tires grip my left side more than my right. My alignment is perfect, nothing broke, and I drove a way a lucky kid

BTW the lady in the grand am stopped for NO Reason, she was doing her makeup!!! GRR R!

That's why I feel safest while driving my mom's BMW. It has every safety (passive and otherwise) feature you could imagine. Dynamic Stability Control has to be one of the coolest things I've used. I was driving it, at night, in the winter on I-94 going into Moorhead, I'm not used to this since I usually take good ol' Highway 52, but it was under construction, so I couldn't take it. Anyway, like I said, I was driving at night and I took the offramp into Moorhead, which to this day I dont know why I did because I live wayyyyy North Fargo, not Moorhead...anyway, the offramp was a VERY sharp curve, which I didn't know at the time because like I said, I never take that road, and I STOMPED on the brakes and steered SHARP to try and stay on the road (taking a ~80 degree curve on ice at ~40 mph) and it FELT like I was about to slide off the road, but I never did. Those commercials where they show a car with DSC taking sharp curves on ice nearly perfectly? I can safely say that they're true. You might think that I have no clue on driving because I dont know how to drive without ABS and all, but I am 15, my first 2 cars have had ABS, and I can guarantee that I'll never own a car without ABS simply because of the fact that when I am old enough to buy my own car, chances are ABS will be a standard feature by then, like it or not. If you don't like it, pull a fuse and stop your whining

Originally posted by Cool Blue Mystique:

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To the person (persons) who recommended threshold braking...when you're driving 70 in the freeway and an animal bolts across the road infront of you, what do your instincts tell you to do? Pump the brakes? I think not!

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Any driving technique is worthless if you must take time to think about it. You have not mastered it unless it has become an instinct. If you need to think about how to handle an emergency, it is too late. Threshold braking does not need to interfear with ABS. Learning to gently let up on the pedal, ever so slightly but instantaneously, when you are on the threshold and just as gently and instantaneously applying again is the key. If you are actually pumping the pedal, you are not doing it right.

Letting off the pedal too much or actually pumping the pedal during an ABS event will greatly lengthen your stopping distance, and can be very deadly. Improperly trained Highway Patrol officers have crashed new police cruisers because they backed off on the pedal too far when the ABS event happened. One even died (he was driving a Chevy, not a Ford) Perhaps they were as much scared from the ABS noise as they were from the hammering brake pedal.

As I was taught in Driver's Ed; Stomp, Stay, and Steer. It works. Stomp on the brake pedal, have your foot Stay stomped on it, and Steer your way to safety. It works wonders. Besides, the average person can only pump their brakes between 50-70 per minute, ABS brakes can pump themselves as much as 50 times per second

Originally posted by Cool Blue Mystique:

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Besides, the average person can only pump their brakes between 50-70 per minute, ABS brakes can pump themselves as much as 50 times per second

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Threshold brking isn't pumping the pedal, its holding it on the edge.

But seriously, are you really that dense? What people are saying here, is learn to drive properly FIRST, then you will have less reliance on things like ABS IVD (same thing as BMW's DSC) etc. The simple fact that you had the DSC kick in unintentionally on a dry road on an off-ramp proves that you are a very poor driver, and are not aware of what is going on around you. Intelligent driving will save you many many more times over than electronic braking aids. Repeat after me "My ABS is not a hammock."

Originally posted by RoadRunner:

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Originally posted by Contouraholic:

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I find it interesting that Mercedes has added some programming to add full brake application pressure to emergency braking (via the ABS pump) because some people with ABS aren't pushing the peddle hard enough. Even ABS takes a little skill.

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This is because the people who own vehicles with ABS, aren't told by their dealers
that they NEED to practice stopping with the ABS system in their cars,
to become accustomed to how it feels.

They are still pumping the pedal, like the old braking system !

When I worked at a Buick Dealer, we would take the customers out to a big and emtpy parking lot
and let them feel what ABS activation felt like.

If you NEVER have an emergency stop,
and you NEVER have any experience
using the equipment you have,
then how can you use it safely ?

Invoking ABS training should be part of a defensive driving course,
as well as delivery of an ABS equipped vehicle.

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My In-laws drove a car for several years without even knowing it had ABS. A little time after I learned this, I heard a report that some people were getting on the brakes in an emergency, hearing the ABS cycle for the first time, getting scared of the noise, and letting off. Or, pumping the brakes (which was always dumb, IMHO) just like they were taught in drivers' ed back in the 70's. (I used to think drivers' ed was gospel, too, about 20 years ago.)

Dealers need to do a better job, and people need to take responsibility for understanding their equipment, ABS, TC, or not. Too many people treat their cars like a washing machine instead of like an airplane.

As for me, I love my ABS, and I'm glad I have it. But like Rara says, it's a safety net. I wish I could turn it off for autocrosses, just so I could experiment, but otherwise, on the street, it's just as well that it stays on.

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But seriously, are you really that dense?

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Yes...yes he is...

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But seriously, are you really that dense?
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Yes...yes he is...

I second THAT!

Man that kid is dense.

Threshold breaking is second nature to me. It is called *EXPIRENCE*

*PRACTICE*

hey kid... for the most part drivers ed teachers do not know squat about vehicle dynamics and couldn't explain to you how to really drive. They can tell you the 'rules of the road'

what you need is a REAL drivers education.

check out the Car Guys
http://www.carguysinc.com/

or perhaps Panoz Racing Schools Advanced Handling Classes
http://www.panozracingschool.com/Handling.asp

Better yet
Start AutoCrossing
www.scca.org

Originally posted by bxd20:

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Thanks Roger, that's kind of where I was hoping this thread would go. Point being, I KNOW I've read C&D reviews that say stuff like "... and the '98 Corvette's Bosch ABS system now features <blah blah blah> that can measure and adjust braking pressure "x" times faster than last year's model."

When I read stuff like that, I can't help but think that the owner of the 97 could just replace his ABS module with a 98 version if nothing else on the car changed.

This might be what it boils down to: Do the part #'s for our ABS modules match across all years? What about the Cougar's?

If Bill did some hunting, and found out that say the part number for a 99 SVT is different than an 00 SVT, I could see this being a potential improvement to our braking systems.

Long shot, but I'm curious.


Brian Dors
99 SVT

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Back to the original question, as well as maybe stirring the pot a bit, here's more tech info from a Bosch ABS engineer, ABS Theory--keep it or ditch it?

WOW!

Fantastic article, thanks!

So the question now exists, did Ford/Bosch use a different set of tuning characteristics in the ABS systems, if we were to compare say a Zetec Contour to an SE to an SVT.

According to this article, they better have. Tires, brakes, suspension all different.

Brian Dors
99 SVT

Originally posted by Rara:

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Originally posted by Cool Blue Mystique:

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Besides, the average person can only pump their brakes between 50-70 per minute, ABS brakes can pump themselves as much as 50 times per second

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The simple fact that you had the DSC kick in unintentionally on a dry road on an off-ramp proves that you are a very poor driver, and are not aware of what is going on around you.

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The simple fact that the offramp was GLARE ICE might have had something to do with it. Read a little more carefully next time.

That being said...is our ABS 3-or 4-channel? I know the 6000 and the Bimmer have 4-channel, but I'm not sure about the Mystique. My 1995 brochure says it's a "Four-sensor design that moniters each wheel individually", so that must mean it's 4-channel, right? Heck, even 2003 GrandAms still have 3-channel, and all 2002 (not sure about 2003) Volvos have 3-channel, surprising for being so "safety oriented"

Roger,

Thanks for finding that article. My buddy who used to work at bosch brakes showed me that once... thus why I kept chanting that ABS works best with OEM equipment (tires, pads, wheels etc)

so now we have the answer.

THE BEST way to improve your stopping with ABS is to get everything back to stock. beyond that you could try to lower the mass of the vehcile. The brake system test drivers/engineers spend countless weeks/months testing the systems in ALL conditions and tweaking all of the parameters.

if you are after the shortest stopping distance possible, get a good set of pads for initial bite and modulation, get the stickiest tires possible on the lightest wheels possible. Make the car weigh is little as possible, tune the suspnesion properly to avoid dive disable ABS and *LEARN HOW TO DRIVE*.... (F=MA) you reduce the M and you need less F to obtain the same A. If you have to ask about that little math lesson I suggest you get an applied science/physics book and read.

Practice and expirence make better drivers... go and practice.

I think the idea of OEM components is because most non-car enthusiasts take the cheapest route possible when it comes to fixing their cars. As for car enthusiasts, we willing put out more money for components that are better than stock!

-Andy

Sure, we're enthusiasts. But just as a engine mods require the PCM to to be modified(apex-i, superchip, etc.) to accomodate a/f and timing changes needed for proper performance, the Bosch article makes it clear for best ABS performance, the ABS computer should be "modded" to account for the handling changes our other mods (Larger brakes, wheels, tires) have. Right now, the late model Contours with wheel/tire/brake mods MAY be suffering a loss in braking performance, rather than the increase expected.

It is definitely food for thought.....

I edited that post with more points but they didn't make it!

My other point was that most of the aftermarket OEM replacements are made by the same companies, i.e. our Ford plugs are made by Autolite, the name on the side and dealer mark-up are the only differences. I also think there are a lot more factors that go into an engines workings than an ABS system. No to trivialize the system just pointing it out! When the sensors read a lock up the ABS kicks in. At least in our case! Granted the new BMW and Merc systems are much more comlpex than that.

I made some other point but that was 20 mins ago and I'm ... well I'll leave that alone!

-Andy

Originally posted by Cool Blue Mystique:

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To the person (persons) who recommended threshold braking...when you're driving 70 in the freeway and an animal bolts across the road infront of you, what do your instincts tell you to do? Pump the brakes? I think not!

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So we should develop systems for those people that Panic quicker than others? I think not!

This is an irrelevant statement.

Originally posted by ANDYW:

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I think the idea of OEM components is because most non-car enthusiasts take the cheapest route possible when it comes to fixing their cars. As for car enthusiasts, we willing put out more money for components that are better than stock!

-Andy

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OEM does not mean bad. I think what you're saying is that some people replace the OEM semi-metallic Bendix pads with $6 organics, and then wonder why their braking sucks. You seem to say that this is what the ABS engineer is warning against, and that going to high performance pads/tires/suspension is OK.

If that is the case, then you have mis-comprehended, and you have also not read either of the tech articles very carefully.

The ABS is calibrated to a car that performs at level X. Deviation from X, whether positive or negative, can confuse the system, and lead to longer stopping distances in cases where the ABS is intervening.

That's what the guy is saying. (In both articles.)

hey

this is kinda off topic but funny to me

I was messin with my wiper stalk the other day @ a stop light.

It was raining (rare thing these days) but I noticed if I used the "mist" function 2x really quickly the ABS light would blink.

NOW my car doesn't have ABS .(thus why good tires, pads and what not don't mess up my stopping distances) but I just thought it was funny that somehow the wiring harnes has ABS and wipers on the same circuit

I guess I wasn't clear on the OEM thing! I wasn't implying that OEM sucks but that like you said many people will install $6 D-grade brakes rather than good OEM's! So the characteristics we are talking about only apply when ABS is being used! That's a rarity for me! Great thread!

-Andy