Contour Enthusiasts Group Archives Forums Modifications Brakes improving emergency stop distance

Originally posted by Cool Blue Mystique:

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To the person (persons) who recommended threshold braking...when you're driving 70 in the freeway and an animal bolts across the road infront of you, what do your instincts tell you to do? Pump the brakes? I think not!

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My instincts tell me to drive around it. If an animal bolts in front of you and you're at 70, your'e not gonna stop in time.

What you're getting at though, is do people respond correctly in a panic situation? The answer is yes. . . and no. Yes, there are people that respond correctly, because they have conditioned themselves to, and there are people that don't, hence the proliferation of such electronic and mechanical brake application aids.

CBM,
Any chance you will come up w/ a good point anytime soon? Yes, ABS is, overall for the world, a very good thing. Is it an absolute necessity? No, and a resounding no at that. There are those that prefer no ABS, and can stop faster in almost any situation without it. Simple facts my friend, whether you suck at proper braking technique or not.

Originally posted by Cool Blue Mystique:

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To the person (persons) who recommended threshold braking...when you're driving 70 in the freeway and an animal bolts across the road infront of you, what do your instincts tell you to do? Pump the brakes? I think not!

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Of course you think not, your 15. You need ABS. After your driving for, say, 20 years, or after taking a few Bondurant Courses or such, your instinct may be to threshold brake rather than panic like a teenager (Assuming you are better than the unwashed masses). Have you thought about what would happen if a fuse blew at a crucial time and you had to make an emergency stop without ABS? Would you be prepared?

This recently happened to me (in October) in my Escort (no ABS). A car suddenly backed out of a driveway in front of me. I was doing 35 in a 40, so speeding was not the issue. I didn't lock em up, I braked very hard (Tires protesting but not skidding), went over to the other side of the road, veered back into my lane (to avoid oncoming traffic) and managed to stop shaking 5 minutes later. If I was like you are now,young, inexperienced, without ABS, I probably would of locked them up and slid into him. If your ABS went out, you would be unable to control your vehicle.

I tell you what, if you have a blow out at high speed, with one wheel turning faster than the other, the ABS will think your skidding and refuse to give you the braking you may want. I have had blowouts, front, rear (rear are hairy) and if you panic and jam the brakes you will lose it. And ABS may not let you get all the braking you want either. Takes a experienced driver to avoid panic and bring their vehicle to a controlled stop.

Try driving an 80,000Lb GVW Tractor trailer. Stopping is difficult. You need to drive a 1000 ft ahead of yourself and plan all your moves. Sudden moves are a guarantee of a jack-knife or rollover. Braking is even more fun with 5 axles and air brakes are much more difficult to modulate than our little cars. And if you hit someone in a car, you are more than likely to kill them. A Professional Driver (which you are not, yet) learns to control his vehicle and not panic in an emergency.

This calmness under pressure comes from practice, training and experience. These things take time. You may be better at 20, you may not. But you aren't near there yet.

Recently, i took driver's ed (about 8 months ago), and they barely mention threshold braking (my dad and myself) had taught me how to brake effective w/out ABS (97 GL, no ABS). THe driver's ed teacher was a little crazy, I said what if I own a car without ABS and I don't slam on the brakes, adn she said "time to by a new car". (LOL ) I like ABS in some circumstances, but I like having control over the vehicle and not the computer. ABS is excellent in SUVs (Ford Explorer perhaps...)and I was doing 45 and the yellow just popped and people began doing left klane turns at the yellow, the stopping distance was excellent the truck leaned way WAY nose down but it stopped at the line exactly. Though I was on the verge of a panic attack, I was happy that I stopped and was happy the ABS light didn't turn on



But they need to grind it into to people's head about correct braking, with and withour ABS equipped vehicles.

It saved me from a few accidents especially when I got my rotors all wet in the rain and I nearly missed a Grand Am by about 4-6 feet as I reacted quickly and correctly by going up a (like a shopping center when curb is low then it rose up), I guess wet cement grips better than flooded asphalt, because my car leaned into it and I can feel the tires grip my left side more than my right. My alignment is perfect, nothing broke, and I drove a way a lucky kid

BTW the lady in the grand am stopped for NO Reason, she was doing her makeup!!! GRR R!

That's why I feel safest while driving my mom's BMW. It has every safety (passive and otherwise) feature you could imagine. Dynamic Stability Control has to be one of the coolest things I've used. I was driving it, at night, in the winter on I-94 going into Moorhead, I'm not used to this since I usually take good ol' Highway 52, but it was under construction, so I couldn't take it. Anyway, like I said, I was driving at night and I took the offramp into Moorhead, which to this day I dont know why I did because I live wayyyyy North Fargo, not Moorhead...anyway, the offramp was a VERY sharp curve, which I didn't know at the time because like I said, I never take that road, and I STOMPED on the brakes and steered SHARP to try and stay on the road (taking a ~80 degree curve on ice at ~40 mph) and it FELT like I was about to slide off the road, but I never did. Those commercials where they show a car with DSC taking sharp curves on ice nearly perfectly? I can safely say that they're true. You might think that I have no clue on driving because I dont know how to drive without ABS and all, but I am 15, my first 2 cars have had ABS, and I can guarantee that I'll never own a car without ABS simply because of the fact that when I am old enough to buy my own car, chances are ABS will be a standard feature by then, like it or not. If you don't like it, pull a fuse and stop your whining

Originally posted by Cool Blue Mystique:

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To the person (persons) who recommended threshold braking...when you're driving 70 in the freeway and an animal bolts across the road infront of you, what do your instincts tell you to do? Pump the brakes? I think not!

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Any driving technique is worthless if you must take time to think about it. You have not mastered it unless it has become an instinct. If you need to think about how to handle an emergency, it is too late. Threshold braking does not need to interfear with ABS. Learning to gently let up on the pedal, ever so slightly but instantaneously, when you are on the threshold and just as gently and instantaneously applying again is the key. If you are actually pumping the pedal, you are not doing it right.

Letting off the pedal too much or actually pumping the pedal during an ABS event will greatly lengthen your stopping distance, and can be very deadly. Improperly trained Highway Patrol officers have crashed new police cruisers because they backed off on the pedal too far when the ABS event happened. One even died (he was driving a Chevy, not a Ford) Perhaps they were as much scared from the ABS noise as they were from the hammering brake pedal.

As I was taught in Driver's Ed; Stomp, Stay, and Steer. It works. Stomp on the brake pedal, have your foot Stay stomped on it, and Steer your way to safety. It works wonders. Besides, the average person can only pump their brakes between 50-70 per minute, ABS brakes can pump themselves as much as 50 times per second

Originally posted by Cool Blue Mystique:

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Besides, the average person can only pump their brakes between 50-70 per minute, ABS brakes can pump themselves as much as 50 times per second

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Threshold brking isn't pumping the pedal, its holding it on the edge.

But seriously, are you really that dense? What people are saying here, is learn to drive properly FIRST, then you will have less reliance on things like ABS IVD (same thing as BMW's DSC) etc. The simple fact that you had the DSC kick in unintentionally on a dry road on an off-ramp proves that you are a very poor driver, and are not aware of what is going on around you. Intelligent driving will save you many many more times over than electronic braking aids. Repeat after me "My ABS is not a hammock."

Originally posted by RoadRunner:

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Originally posted by Contouraholic:

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I find it interesting that Mercedes has added some programming to add full brake application pressure to emergency braking (via the ABS pump) because some people with ABS aren't pushing the peddle hard enough. Even ABS takes a little skill.

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This is because the people who own vehicles with ABS, aren't told by their dealers
that they NEED to practice stopping with the ABS system in their cars,
to become accustomed to how it feels.

They are still pumping the pedal, like the old braking system !

When I worked at a Buick Dealer, we would take the customers out to a big and emtpy parking lot
and let them feel what ABS activation felt like.

If you NEVER have an emergency stop,
and you NEVER have any experience
using the equipment you have,
then how can you use it safely ?

Invoking ABS training should be part of a defensive driving course,
as well as delivery of an ABS equipped vehicle.

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My In-laws drove a car for several years without even knowing it had ABS. A little time after I learned this, I heard a report that some people were getting on the brakes in an emergency, hearing the ABS cycle for the first time, getting scared of the noise, and letting off. Or, pumping the brakes (which was always dumb, IMHO) just like they were taught in drivers' ed back in the 70's. (I used to think drivers' ed was gospel, too, about 20 years ago.)

Dealers need to do a better job, and people need to take responsibility for understanding their equipment, ABS, TC, or not. Too many people treat their cars like a washing machine instead of like an airplane.

As for me, I love my ABS, and I'm glad I have it. But like Rara says, it's a safety net. I wish I could turn it off for autocrosses, just so I could experiment, but otherwise, on the street, it's just as well that it stays on.

In reply to:

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But seriously, are you really that dense?

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Yes...yes he is...

In reply to:
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But seriously, are you really that dense?
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Yes...yes he is...

I second THAT!