Contour Enthusiasts Group Archives Forums Modifications Brakes improving emergency stop distance

I sold my 2wd Toyoata pickup a couple of years ago. I have a long, steep hill up to my house. We get a bit of snow and ice. I can't tell you how many 4wd vehicles go off the road because of overconfidence. I have had to go around cars and trucks with ABS, traction, control and 4wd because they became stuck and i had none of it. The trick to driving in slippery conditions is not to overdrive or overbrake the traction. Real traction control is with the driver, not the PCM. An experienced driver is aware of the traction, throttle and braking and controls it for conditions. Relying on ABS is a crutch for the general masses who remain unconscious of the conditions around them. An inexperienced driver needs and welcomes ABS as that driver does not have the ability or skill to drive without it. Like I said in a previous post, ABS doesn't always work in your favor. On my hill, I was forced to drive all the way to the bottom on a car with ABS because the ABS would not allow any braking action because 1 or 2 of the wheels were sliding whereas a Non-ABS vehicle would have had more control because I could of had some braking action on the wheels with more traction. On glare ice, ABS does prevent you from locking your wheels, but does not allow you to stop. Whether ABS or not, you are along for the ride.

I have been driving with a license for 32 years. I've driven cars, trucks, tractor-trailers, LARGE wreckers, heavy equipment (front loaders, cranes, backhoes), motorcycles, in all sorts of conditions. I have a mechanical engineering degree, a Masters Degree, spent 3 years in the Army as a Wheeled Vehicle Mechanic. So I find it humorous that someone with their license less than a year believes he has all that much to offer to the subject. Unlike some who have been getting peeved (justified IMHO), I just laugh when I see posts offering advice from someone who isn't old enough to vote yet. Of course, that person could be a troll, just stirring things up. Either way, hahahaha...

As far as AWD/4WD, it just means that you can get stuck in more places than 2WD.

When I was in the Army, I had a standing challenge to anyone:

I will keep my Jeep in 2WD (open diffs front and rear) and follow you anywhere with their Jeep in 4WD.

Uphill, Downhill, mud, sand, fording rivers (except once, buddy went in water deeper than intake, I didn't follow and he didn't make it out of the water ((well he did, the Jeep didn't)))

These were M151A2's. No computer, no ABS, no Traction control, no radio, no ignition key, 4 speed, no synchro 1st gear, 4w independent suspension, no roof, no doors, no pollution equipment, 4cyl-no horsepower to speak of (top speed about 55-60MPH), no handling-you could overturn these in a heartbeat.

Never lost the bet.

Technique over technology.

You don't need 4wd. Just makes it easier to get in over your head.

Originally posted by Contouraholic:

---

You don't need 4wd. Just makes it easier to get in over your head.

---

Indeed. We get serious winters up here, and whenever a 4WD owner says that he can get a greater distance in his vehicle than we can, we always answer with "ye olde saying": "Yeah man, you can get a longer distance off the road when you lose it!"

It always takes a longer towing line to get'em out..

I've been driving 22 years without traction control or ABS. Never lost it (touching wood), never had to stay home because of the weather. Sometimes it feels like most people leave their brains at home whenever snow flakes are falling...

Finally,

That's one of the smartest things you've said here.

Now stop trying to upset everybody and either cooperate (doesn't mean you have to agree with everyone else, just be civil) with the rest of the folks here, or move on.

Too many threads have been closed related to your contributions here.

You seem a lot like my pre-teen daughter. Very smart, but totally lacking in the common sense, gets along with others department. She currently uses her smarts to just get her way instead of cooperating with her family.

Haven't met you in person, so perhaps this is just an "Internet Persona".

Oh yeah, the topic is brakes. Sometimes we need to put brakes on our mouth (fingers) and think before we type

And finally, the best thing to improve emergency stopping distance is:

TIRES you can only apply brake force to the limit of your tires traction. So if you trip the ABS system on dry pavement, you are at maximum, traction limited, brake force.

FWIW,

TB

A good driver is more important than ABS when it comes to stopping distances.

That said... ABS will keep somebody from chewing up a set of soft race tires on the track and save some cash but give me non-ABS any day of the week.

For most people I would rather them *HAVE* ABS... My kids will drive cars with ABS when they start driving.. I will let them loose on the AutoX course and test track without it and let them learn how to really drive but until they have to pay their own insurance and for their own wrecks I won't allow them to drive non-ABS cars on the street.

as for the "Youngest" CEG member. Your lack of age shows. Chill. you do need ABS. I have driven in all sorts of places with all sorts of conditions. I will take a 2wd FWD car (pref. with LSD) and NO ABS any day over the techno-cars.

F1 cars have the neat tricks but they spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to get the systems right. street cars have systems that will not allow the automakers to be sued... they aren't a substitue for a good driver.

I'm frankly a little tired of hearing that only "bad" drivers need ABS or TC, and I respectfully disagree.

I've been driving for almost 20 years, and with ABS/TC since 1996. I've only had one occasion that I can remember to turn off the TC, and that was glare ice on a hill.

Otherwise, I drive commensurate with the conditions, and hardly ever activate either system. When they do come on, it's because I've missed something, or the conditions changed, or whatever, but it's a clue that I need to slow down.

Of course, I didn't have either when I lived in Michigan's UP. Talk about snow. Maybe I'd see things differently if I had. But, C&D did a test several years back, comparing a 4wd, fwd, rwd, and fwd with TC, and rwd with tc in deep snow. They drove each one till it got stuck. The 4wd made it the farthest, followed by the fwd with TC, followed by everyone else.

ABS and TC do not replace driver skill, but I still think that when these tools are understood and used properly, they can and do enhance safety and control, even for "good" drivers. Your model assumes that the conditions are always known. Common sense and 32 years of driving ought to tell you that this is not always the case.

Roger, I don't think anyone is saying that only "bad" drivers shoudl have ABS and/or TC, etc. but "bad" drivers do need them. The truth of the matter is, that a skilled driver can and will both stop quicker than ABS, and hustle around a track faster than TC, or at least hte current generations of the systems. Does that mean a skilled driver has no use for abs/TC/IVD etc.? no I don't think so, even the best drivers in the world do not drive at 10/10ths all the time, not even the venerable Schuey. . .

Bottom line, these systems are safety nets, not hammocks. Please treat them as such. Know how to get along w/ out them, and you will be far better in the long run.

Ditto..What Rara said.....

Just to add....A skilled Driver with 4wd will go further than the same skill with 2WD.

I find it interesting that Mercedes has added some programming to add full brake application pressure to emergency braking (via the ABS pump) because some people with ABS aren't pushing the peddle hard enough. Even ABS takes a little skill.

Originally posted by Contouraholic:

---

I find it interesting that Mercedes has added some programming to add full brake application pressure to emergency braking (via the ABS pump) because some people with ABS aren't pushing the peddle hard enough. Even ABS takes a little skill.

---

This is the panic assist function I referred to above. I'm not a big fan of it;l though it will help someone that can't deal w/ an emergency situation w/ some level of maintained composure/intelligence. It is actually becoming more and more prevalent too, I know the new Ford Expedition and Lincoln Navigator both have this function.