Contour Enthusiasts Group Archives Forums General Autocross and Open Track Contour Classes at Spring Zing

Now I'm assuming that we're not going to have people running on street tires competing with those of us on race rubber. I'm also thinking that those with the LSD shoud not be in the same class as those without. Same for lowered suspensions.

I wanted to get a dialogue going about what classes/rules we are going to have.


I propose classes. But I'm not sure where to put the LSD. But it's a start for discussion I would think.

1. Basically stock
2. Race rubber basically stock
3. Suspension lowered etc etc. Race rubber
4. Supercharged/larger displacement Race Rubber


Then again this could be academic as everything is already decided. I hope not, as I'd like to think we have some influence on the process.

What do you guys think?

Well, first off I think a dialogue is a good idea on this subject.

One thing I do NEED to point out is we can't go crazy with classes. Last year worked out pretty well with the classes.
Last year the class breakdown was like this:
Contour Stock
Contour Modifed
SVT Contour Stock
SVT Contour Modified
Taurus SHO Stock (Gen 1 & 2)
Taurus SHO Modified (Gen 1 & 2)
Taurus SHO Stock (Gen 3)
Taurus SHO Modified (Gen 3)

The guy who won had crazy suspension mods and he still wasn't much quicker then some of the stock contour entrants.

Next year we are going to be seeing some cars that are a little more "out there" so rules adjustments are going to be a must.
-Mark

so if i had an intake and cat-back exhaust, would i be running in stock or modified? also, being there are four and six cylinder contours, do we all run in the same class?

Well, if it is going to be run in conjunction with the WMR regional event at the University again, I propose that those of you with race rubber simply run GS. That was going to be my intention, anyway. Most of the guys with mad suspension mods run STS, so we don't think race rubber will be an issue.

TheMark - The SZ classes are completely separate from the standard SCCA classes running. You must run in one of the Spring Zing Cup Classes to be eligible to win the Spring Zing Cup.

Last year we had 4cyl & 6cyl running together, the reason behind it was there was only 1 Zetec (to my knowledge) entered in the Spring Zing Cup.
-Mark

Ok, I get the picture.

Well, I do agree with Mark, in that we should not go class crazy... but, I don't really consider race rubber as a modification.

I think it was shown last year that, for the most part, the SEs were faster than the SVTs, so I see no need for that distinction anymore.

What about a Contour Race Prepared category? Pretty much an anything-goes class... Or call it Contour - Open.

We'd be dropping one class from last year with this configuration.

~TM

An open class is in the works, there are soem unanswered points with the class and whether or not it will include the people competing in the Ultimate Contour Competition.

As for combining the SVT's and regular contours, I don't think its going to happen. Before anyone jumps down my throat over it please listen to my resoning.

The reason behind the model split was more for scoring & heat purposes then anything else. In the end the fastest time out of all the classes took the win.

The problem with that setup is next year we are going to have more "Open" type cars competing compared to this years Spring Zing where the three cars that would have been classified as open didn't compete for various reasons (mine had a bad CV & Motormount, Brad's left on a trailor, Trapps never got his working correctly).

I guess what my biggest concern with the Cup is keeping the competition fair for everyone. An open class could easily take the ability to win away from anyone not running in the class. So that is something that really has to be discussed.

Now on the subject of race tires... Race tires will not be allowed.
-Mark

I like the idea of an open class. However DOT approved tires should be allowed. I spend a lot of time at the autoX. AutoX tears up tires very very quickly. You could say each run is about 1000 miles of regular wear. That's why I go through the trouble of starting at 6 am. Loading my car and going to the AutoX, changing my tires there. Because of this, I've also not put on as good a street tire as I may have. Reason??? Simple, I do my high performance driving on the track. I need/use a good all season tire, albeit high-performance, for the street. It satisfies my basic needs and helps me control my costs.

When I go to spring zing. I also go with the intention of winning. However I'm not dropping an additional $500 just to run there.

I run GS in SCCA and I think that pretty much should sum things up. I'm stock, I run stock and I concentrate on my driving skills. I am serious about competing. That's why I have race rubber with DOT (ie street legal) approval. There are enough of us out there doing the same thing I don't see why that should not be allowed.

I also think that we shouldn't go crazy with classes either. I think that those of us who have spent the time and money investing in our cars(or driving skills) would be more than happy to invest in some Kuhmo's or something similiar. I bet many people have them already.

The people who are there who have never done this before or just once in a blue moon. Don't take this seriously, they can compete, but they take the hit of not coming optimized for running. They are there to have fun. I am too, but I plan on doing my damndest to post the best time. And race rubber is worth 3 seconds on a 60 second course.

I understand wanting to keep this as fair as possible. But I also disagree about the tire thing. These cars are VERY twitchy at the limit, and race rubber will hurt you more than help you if your not careful. Street tires are much more forgiving.

I am certainly curious as to how many people, if given the opportunity to use race rubber, will show up with it.

I am gonna EAT you up DAVE
Stock tires and all!!!!! :p

On those bald things??? Yeah.. if you can make it through the winter without sliding into the wall.

If you want to bring out an extra set of DOT legal regular (up to Z rated) tires I have no problem, but the fact is I do NOT want to see anyone using Race compound or shaved competition tires.
-Mark

Then why bother??? Not interested.. I've got my street tires.. FOR THE STREET

I may compete in the GS class that is there, but otherwise I'm not going to bother.

I would really like to hear the justification for this.

*yawn*
I lay down for a nap, and look what happens.
:P

I have to say that Dave has basically summed up my feelings about race tires. I have them for a number of reasons, all of which Dave has brought up. If you are dead-set against it, please spell out your reasoning. I think there are many reasons FOR it, I can't think of any against...

Tell you what, I have no problems running against anyone (S/C, 3.0, Quaifed, Aussiefied, Whatever) for the open cup. I only ask that you give those of us with the desire to drive, the pleasure of driving, and racing, for the Cup.

Mark, I think you need to put the crack pipe down and face reality.

Inasmuch as some people will run serious mods to crank up the hp levels - others will want to run stickier(race) tires to suit their wishes. Having a problem with the one but not the other smacks of hypocrisy, especially in light of a so-called Open Class category.

And people wonder why I don't attend national meets....

Dan Beggs
99 Cougar V6, BTR'd

I don't know if I'm coming but I disagree with using autocross tires because as Dave points out, they are a major advantage that not everyone will have. Propose to allow tires legally allowed in STS.

You can still run Kuhmo 712, or G-force radials or Michelin pilot sport or Bridgestone Pole position, but the ringer race tires are only for serious autocrossers and most folks coming to SZ are not that serious to have separate sets of wheels with race tires.

Afraid you can't win without race tires?

As for the cup thing, there needs to be one trophy for stock cars and one for modded.

Cole.. your right, if you noticed I originally intended to have seperate classes. I still think that is appropriate.

And I don't think the wear and tear on my regular tires is worth it.


And I don't plan on buying another set just to prove it.

BTW one other thing.. Race tires are very close to being even for all competitors, no matter the brand.

Street tires can leave a lot to be desired from brand to brand and model to model.

It's actually one of the fairest ways to level the driving skill.

Dave I'm not saying I'm coming yet, but if I do I would be willing to spring for halvies with you on a set of 215/40-16 Kuhmo 712s to mount on your race wheels for this event. I think a non-moonroof SVT would be faster and I think the later 99 and 2000 models probably handle better too.

Uhhh the Kuhmo's are race rubber Cole.. but i certainly do appreciate the offer and we'll have to see.

oops me bad.. wrong Kuhmo's #. Sorry about that.. food for thought though.

My justification is simple. I do not want people feeling they have to go out and spend money on race tires to be able to be competitive.
You guys are failing to understand the position I am in. I have to deal with complaints and comments from both sides of the spectrum and make choices based on that. Last year one person used race tires and i received quite a few complaints over it even though he didn't win. The majority of people who are going to be competing in the Cup are for the most part not AutoX regulars, People who AutoX often enough to warrant the use of race tires already have an advantage from experience alone. You toss int he race tires it just stacks the deck further.
I am sorry guys, the race tires are out and it is going to stay that way. If you choose not to compete in the Spring Zing Cup over it that is your choice.
I am not trying to be a dick about it and I know I can't please everyone.
-Mark

So make a seperate class. Those of us who do this regularly shouldn't be racing against those who don't anyway. Because of that competitive advantage.

Not the Victoracers, the Ecsta Supra 712s have a 280 wear rating and are great for the street or autocross. Look at prices in Tire Rack...a performance tire bargain. I have 205/55 on my car now and they are great so I can only imagine how a fatter size would be.

Ok Mark. Fair enough.

But do you want people feeling that they have to go out and spend money on a supercharger and water injection system (or insert other big dollar mod here) to be able to be competitive in the speed contests?

Perry, The Ultimate Contour Competition is something completly outside of the Spring Zing Cup. And that is something specifically for the people with the high dollar insane modifications.

-Mark

So essentially what you are asking for is a "Pro" class?
-Mark

Sure why not..

that would be the class where those of us who spend the year AutoX get to compete against each other. I know I and probably many others here are just dying to take each other on.

why not just run the SCCA classes and be done with it? Include the Novice class and you'll be fairly sure that we're all even and it's rules we understand.

I can live with having a Pro Class. One thing though. If there aren't enough people signed up for that class it disappears. So that would give you the choice of runnign in the regular SCCA classes or putting the street tires back on to run in the SZ Cup.
Sound fair enough?
-Mark

I am fine with that. Sounds great, in fact.

Sounds good... I like the idea of Pro circuit... That way I won't have to go up against TheMark...

I don't autocross often enough, but I should...

I know that I don't qualify as a "pro" driver for SCCA, but I do drive enough events that compared to someone who's never done it.. or has maybe done it a couple of times. I should be much better than them. Looking forward to seeing you there..THEMARK

So does that mean the guys who normally run STS can go buy race rubber and compete against the stock guys in the "Pro" class? See what I mean. You are opening up a can of worms.

I don't see why not...though I'll be suprised if anyone does that. If they normally run on street tires, and go to race tires, I would be suprised if they can keep up. For me, at least, it took a few events to get my mind around the fact that these tires grip like mad. I found that I overbraked WAY too much.

I can't speak for everyone, but I am not one to cry 'foul'. I just want to compete, and have fun. It is a 'Pro' class. Pretty much anything goes. I am going to be in GS trim, but don't expect everyone will be.

Nope but as you said.. we should have an advantage as we have the experience.

BTW as for can of worms.. someone with a blower and a LSD has a bigger advantage that we ever will with race tires.

You have to understand.. allowing race tires allows those of us who compete in the GS for SCCA or one of the NASA classes to come and compete at the level we are accostomed to. I think we're in general more out to beat each other than the guy with H&K's and LSD's. We're basically equal so that we know it's driving skill and not some gimmicky mod that we've done that gives us the advantage.

Personally I don't think we'll have the fastest times. But for us, whoever wins the class will probably have the most prestige.

I'd also agree run SCCA classes,
Stock
STS
and Prepared
For each car type, SHO, Tour/Cougar, etc.

PAX them, PAX is made to even out the field.

I wanna purpose 5 classes for Spring Zing.
G Stock Contour
STS Contour
STS SVT Contour
Street Mod
Open Mod

Hey I am just wondering what class I will fit into. I usally ran sts last year but will soon be outclassed there do to my next mix of mods. I know if I will be allowed to run with the slicks I will just cause they are so much fun!!!!

Major mods to jump classes, LSD, Ground control, Konis, Sway bar, Sub frame connectors, Rear lower control arms, plus whatever STS aprroved mods.

I know that those guys will beat me just cause they auto X more than 5 times a year so I just want to be able to have the most fun with my car.

I have been following this debate for a good 6 months now.
I've met with Dave, and we have spent a few hours together behind the wheel of several simulators.

While I suck at driving on several courses, Dave is very good at driving, and strategizing his course runs.

On this tire issue, Dave is right about the tires and models.
I've been driving the last two years on a set of 205/60/15 Michelin Energy MXV4+ tires.
Now being the average Joe street racer I am, I could't feel much of a difference
between the Michelins and the FireHawks that came on the Contour,
but the MXV4+ was a much quieter tire, that gripped the wet road, as if the car was on RAILS.

This past week, I had a really good opportunity to get a new set of tires,
and I opted for Michelin Pilot XGT H4, H90 Series in the same size.

There is a, exit, that makes a long sweeping right hand turn, off the Cross County Parkway,
here in Yonkers, that is marked with a 20 MPH sign.
With the MXV4+, I could take the turn at 40mph, with the tires squealing.

With the Pilot XGT H4s, I can take the same turn at 50 MPH without as much as a PEEP coming from the tires.

Neither of these are considered RACE RUBBER, but there is a DRAMATIC ADVANTAGE or DISADVANTAGE to running anything other than the STOCK TIRES on your car.

So if you want to play FAIR by everyone, then make the STOCK CLASS include ORIGINAL OEM WHEELS & TIRES,
and let those without, AutoX with the drivers who installed
a different wheel/tire than OEM because they thought
the wheels & tires they installed were BETTER.

And FWIW, I do believe that ANY TIRE/Wheel combination, other than the original Manufacturer installed combination, should be considered a MODIFICATION, since it can change the way a car handles, DRAMATICALLY.

With everyone running the Tire/Wheel of their choice in their own class,
there is NO bickering. You either run what everyone else runs, or run what you want.
Those should be the ONLY rules on Wheels & Tires.

If you got $$$ to burn in tires, then AutoX in your STOCK Wheels and Tires, and let the rest of us enjoy our rides, the way WE want to enjoy them.

Except that tires wear out and you'll need new ones. Then what? Limit the auto-x to people that barely drive their cars, or drive them around in unsafe conditions (bald tires...)? That's rediculous.

Should everyone have to use stock pads and rotors? Upgrading your pads and rotors can change the way the cars brakes DRAMATICALLY. Stock spark plugs too?

Not allowing race rubber is one thing, making people use completely sh!tty tires is something else entirely.

Change your plugs.. change your brake pads.. I don't care.. they won't affect the car the way tires do in an autoX. The stock pads are fine, it's only when heat dissipation becomes a factor that the stock pads show their weakness. I've never been in an autoX that is more than 2 minutes. And if you can heat up your brakes enough to get brake fade in that amount of time.. my hat's off to you. You're a much better driver than I'll ever be.


The rules should be the same as SCCA rules. Everyone is familiar with them and shouldn't have a problem. Creating our own rules is not just stupid, it's idiotic. There already exists countless organizations that cover this, there is no reason to go and try to rediscover the wheel.

I'd certainly like to know up front what I'm going there for instead of finding out when I get there. From what I've heard I'm just going to run with the regular SCCA guys anyway. I'm intersted in finding out who's the best contour driver, but I personally think that not being allowed to come out and run your best is a waste of mine and everyone else's time.

As for the tires.. gee perry, I think I need those subframe connectors, a blower and Bear brakes so I can be competitive..

HA, while I'm sure they help, the fact is there are some things to make the car go faster but your talking maybe 2 seconds on a 60 second course. While that's a big difference, to people without experience, they'll probably make enough mistakes to end up towards the rear of the pack.

(no offense intended there gr8ride... btw mind If I try your car out??? I want to try out a lowered LSD car)

I saw something a while ago about detailing for the show part.. to be honest, that's just time and if you have the time to invest you can detail your car no matter how experience you are, and I'm sure that someone will be there to give you tips and just in general help you out.

Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way for us on the track. 1 mistake, adds 1 sec... 2nd mistake.. another second.. 3 tenths here... 4 tenths there.. stay on the gas too long swing wide (example.. watch the contour rolling over) off the course.... tap the brakes.. back end swings out wide.. another 5 tenths.. No one can help you when your on the track.

AutoX'ing is a matter of who made the least mistakes, not a matter of who has the most power. The better the tire, the larger the margin for error or the closer to the edge you can get.

But enough of this..

who started this thread again?

Perry,

When your tires wear out, you can STILL get replacements, right ?
And if you want to remain STOCK for the AutoX, then you get the SAME tire as replacements right ?

DOH !

Sure. Go to www.tirerack.com and find me the price on a Goodyear Eagle GS-C in the stock 1998 SVT Contour size. Next up, try the Goodyear F1-GS from the 1998.5.

I await your response.

Hey no offesene taken I do auto X enough to know that my car is not what will get me in the winners circle it is the driver. Plus its really funny when you, your gf, and one of your best freinds drive the same car then you really know whats up!!!!! I dont think I will have a problem letting you drive my car if you want hopefully it will be fun for everyone to see what a pretty much optimzed svt can actully do.

I started it up again since there was no resolution. I think that we should follow the new SCCA rules also. Just allow the SVT and non-SVT to compete seperately in their own G Stock or STS or Mod classes.

Well I jsut want to say that no race tires is the dumbest thing I have heard of. If there is a seperate class for them fine, I dont care. But, if there isnt I dont see why race tires would be that big of a deal in the first place. I can only see Gr8ride being the only with full out race tires there. His tires were something like $250 a piece and they are Micheline tires from Skip Barber race school.

If you can run in SCCA with these "race tires" against other guys with lightly modded SVT Contours, why wouldnt it be the same for SZ? I just dont see the point. I mean Mark, yeah you will have to deal with a few guys *****ing about it but when youa re runnign somehting this big you cant please everyone.

My other questions is, are you going to let someone win the Spring Zing Cup that didnt even attend Spring Zing like last year? I mean, he wasnt there at all and just showed up for the uto-X and gets the cup? What's up with that?